Originally posted by AstnerAhh, the guide isn't canon then.
It also has Yakon at 800,000,000; which would make one Kili equal a power level of one million. It's simple to the point where I can imagine Akira Toriyama actually having this in the back of his head while writing this scene.
Per V-Jump(which is of equal canonicity as the Daizenshuu), 1 kili=50,000PL:
http://i.imgur.com/Z8ZsdGq.jpg
So Yakon's kili rating of 800 would've gleaned him a canon PL of 40m.
Originally posted by Galan007
Ahh, the guide isn't canon then.Per V-Jump(which is of equal canonicity as the Daizenshuu), 1 kili=50,000PL:
http://i.imgur.com/Z8ZsdGq.jpg
But that questions and answers isn't an interview or anything like that, in fact it doesn't even mention Akira Toriyama.
Originally posted by Galan007
So Yakon's kili rating of 800 would've gleaned him a canon PL of 40m.
Unless Goku just threw on the first, raw form and not the more advanced forms he gained later. I mean Akira did say Goku hasn't been training his base form which would increase his overall power, it could explain why that form was at equal power, as he would only increase his strength if he amps his base self.. /shrugs
Originally posted by BloodRain
Unless Goku just threw on the first, raw form and not the more advanced forms he gained later. I mean Akira did say Goku hasn't been training his base form which would increase his overall power, it could explain why that form was at equal power, as he would only increase his strength if he amps his base self.. /shrugs
The idea that Goku in his base grew from 3,000,000 at the end of the Frieza arc to 60,000,000 in the Buu arc would make sense. After all, Goku relied on the Kai-oken to fight Frieza. It would also put him in beneath full-power Freiza reinforcing Beerus' claim.
The V-Jump QnA really threw me off-guard, but I'd probably reject it on the premise that Akira Toriyama wasn't involved with it.
*Looks at scan*
I'll just pretend I'm not the only one in this thread who can't read Japanese. ^_^
Originally posted by Astner
The problem with that reasoning is that it's not supported by any official sources and it outright contradicts the fiftyfold increase established in the in the Daizenshū.The idea that Goku in his base grew from 3,000,000 at the end of the Frieza arc to 60,000,000 in the Buu arc would make sense. After all, Goku relied on the Kai-oken to fight Frieza. It would also put him in beneath full-power Freiza reinforcing Beerus' claim.
The V-Jump QnA really threw me off-guard, but I'd probably reject it on the premise that Akira Toriyama wasn't involved with it.
Ginyu only got, what, 20k out of base Goku.
Assumed that's because he didn't know the Kaio Ken.
Anyways, post scouter power level sources are usually taken with a grain of salt. Even the ones from Akira himself don't always add up.
Originally posted by BloodRain
But doesn't the 60m come from the same page listing Yakon as 800m? That's far too high for someone that was losing out to base Goku.
Originally posted by cdtm
Ginyu only got, what, 20k out of base Goku.Assume that's because he didn't know the Kaio Ken.
Originally posted by AstnerV-Jump is a canon DBZ source--same as the Daizenshuu. Heck, most new DBZ-related info is mentioned in V-Jump before ANY other source. Toriyama himself has been interviewed for the book several times over the last few decades. Here is one such interview:
I honestly have no idea what role secondary sources play in regards to canon for Dragon Ball.
It, like the Daizenshuu, is as canon as the manga itself.
Originally posted by AstnerDoesn't matter. A question was posed, and the publishers gave an official/canon answer in a canon book. 1 kili=50,000PL.
But that questions and answers isn't an interview or anything like that, in fact it doesn't even mention Akira Toriyama.
Originally posted by AstnerGoku hadn't even powered up at all in his SSJ state when that kili rating was given. That was just his base SSJ power--definitely not his maximum. /shrug
But that would also mean that Super Saiyan Goku had a power level of 150,000,000 in the Buu saga, which makes absolutely no sense.
^"Unless Goku just threw on the first, raw form and not the more advanced forms he gained later.
Originally posted by AstnerI barely saw Goku put in an effort with that fight, and to do the same without sight? With a tenfold difference? Its just a bit off imo.
Yakon wasn't losing, Goku just managed to evade his blow before he decided to turn Super Saiyan; and Yakon was surprised by Goku's ability to dodge him while blinded. I don't necessarily think that's indicative of that he's stronger.
Daizenshuu might be canon, but practically they're only good as a reference. There's stuff that blatantly contradicts the manga, like Nappa's pl being 4,000, or pre SSJ Gotenks being weaker then Vegeta.
Of course, Toriyama interviews are another story, although personally I even take his post manga statements with a grain of salt. I know if I completed a work and I was bugged for details after the fact, I might just toss out whatever to get them off my back/appease the fans.
Call it George Lucas syndrome.
Originally posted by cdtmCare to elaborate on how Nappa's PL being 4,000 contradicts the manga?
Daizenshuu might be canon, but practically they're only good as a reference. There's stuff that blatantly contradicts the manga, like Nappa's pl being 4,000,
Moreover, that PL wasn't just given in the Daizenshuu. It was also listed in Weekly Shōnen Jump and the SEG.
Originally posted by cdtmHere's the actual quote...
pre SSJ Gotenks being weaker then Vegeta.
ゴテンクス
Gotenks
Character in which Goten and Trunks use Fusion and combine.
[His.] He was born through Fusion, taught to Goten and Trunks by Gokuu as a last resort, for the purpose of defeating Majin Boo, who boasted absolute strength. After going through numerous failures, the combining was eventually successful. The two of them confined themselves in the Room of Spirit and Time and rushed to carry out their training as Gotenks. As a result, they leveled up to a strength that eclipses even Vegeta. However, they were taken in by the Boo who had absorbed his good self and powered up.
Well, Gotenks first successful fusion happened before the room training. Piccolo knew Vegeta's power level, and seemed pretty impressed by a non SSJ Gotenks. (Not to mention, that's when 'Tenks pulled the most impressive speed feat in the manga, far eclipsing anything Vegeta or Goku did sans teleport.)
As for Nappa, Goku claimed it would take him all day to beat Nappa (Without using the Kaio Ken), which implies a greater pl then 4,000.
On power levels in general:
Vegeta "Surpassing Goku" AND Gohan throws a big monkey wrench into raw power levels.
Without even achieving a SSJ status change. Makes you wonder if gamma radiation glows gold in Z, what with Vegeta getting madder = getting stronger then the numbers/training period/form/ say he should.
Originally posted by cdtmWhen base Gotenks was first formed, he arrogantly went off to fight Fat Buu... He returned on the very next page, battered/bruised/broken, and stated: "I didn't do so good." Even SSJ2 Vegeta was able to hold Buu off longer than that.
Well, Gotenks first successful fusion happened before the room training. Piccolo knew Vegeta's power level, and seemed pretty impressed by a non SSJ Gotenks. (Not to mention, that's when 'Tenks pulled the most impressive speed feat in the manga, far eclipsing anything Vegeta or Goku did sans teleport.)
Also, Piccolo wasn't too terribly impressed by base Gotenks initially...
Base Gotenks: "This is enough to beat Boo!"
Piccolo: "You fool!! You know nothing about Boo!! You may be powerful--but scarcely enough to defeat him!!"
*Also, it was SSJ Gotenks who preformed that globe-circling speed feat--not base Gotenks.
Originally posted by cdtmGoku's exact line was: "This could take forever." Obviously that statement is nothing but hyperbole, as no battle can literally last 'forever'.
As for Nappa, Goku claimed it would take him all day to beat Nappa (Without using the Kaio Ken), which implies a greater pl then 4,000.
Anyway, Nappa freaked the hell out when he was told that Goku's PL ~8,000... That reaction, coupled with Goku easily countering, blocking, and tanking everything Nappa could dish out(even his most powerful attack), is suggestive of a vast difference existing between their respective PLs. Suffice to say: a PL of 4,000 for Nappa doesn't contradict anything we saw, imo.
Aside from that, three different guidebooks confirm that his PL was 4,000(I can post them if you'd like)... It's pretty hard to argue against multiple canon sources. /shrug
Goku had the upper hand, but not as much as you'd think at over twice Nappa's base strength.
Vegeta was tearing through fights with much less of a ki advantage.
Did Nappa focus his ki in the manga, like he did in the anime? (If he did, one could nitpick that as a bit of an internal contradiction, because Vegeta established he only learned how to raise and lower ki from Earth.)
Off topic, but are there stats given for Ten in the Cell saga, and how much his Shin Kikoho (Or tri beam, or whatever it's called these days) could output?
Ten couldn't hurt Cell, but he could knock him back, AND he shot down an attack from BuuTenks. so what could he do with a Kaio Ken? SSJ ballpark level attack?
Heh, and imagine if a real SSJ knew his Shin KiKoHo. Forget the final flash, Vegeta just pops out four or five of those..
Originally posted by cdtmYou should check out their battle again, because Goku did have a massive advantage. Not only was Nappa unable to lay so much as a finger on him, but Goku also didn't even bother to avoid one of Nappa's powered-up/enraged energy attacks from striking him head-on:
Goku had the upper hand, but not as much as you'd think at over twice Nappa's base strength.
Originally posted by cdtmYeah, but Vegeta always fought to kill back then--Goku has never fought like that(not even against Freeza.) Had Goku wanted to kill Nappa from the get-go, I think we'd have seen a much swifter victory.
Vegeta was tearing through fights with much less of a ki advantage.
Originally posted by cdtmBoth Nappa and Vegeta were able to power up during the Saiyan Saga, if that's what you're asking..?
Did Nappa focus his ki in the manga, like he did in the anime? (If he did, one could nitpick that as a bit of an internal contradiction, because Vegeta established he only learned how to raise and lower ki from Earth.)
Nappa:
http://i.imgur.com/6eYKPBs.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/TARR7Xw.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/q6duvjE.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/vsXOyfU.jpg
Vegeta:
http://i.imgur.com/6HrW8Gx.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/xcy7cOW.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/md3RJuB.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Hl6YDE6.jpg
Originally posted by cdtmNo PLs were given after the Freeza saga, but Ten was logically in the low millions at most during the Cell saga.
Off topic, but are there stats given for Ten in the Cell saga, and how much his Shin Kikoho (Or tri beam, or whatever it's called these days) could output?
As for Ten's attack: Roshi himself stated that even the Kamehameha is "dog piss" in comparison to the Shin Kikoho, which makes sense because the latter doesn't drain its user's ki--it drains their life-force.
Originally posted by Astner
Yakon wasn't losing, Goku just managed to evade his blow before he decided to turn Super Saiyan; and Yakon was surprised by Goku's ability to dodge him while blinded. I don't necessarily think that's indicative of that he's stronger.At Kaio-ken Goku hit 180,000 meaning that his base power level was 90,000.
That's assuming a base Kaio Ken, isn't it?
How do we know he didn't use a KK x3 from 60,000? It was a prolonged power up.
