Should people marry? It seems that God would forbid it.

Started by Greatest I am4 pages

Originally posted by Digi
YouTube video

That's the thesis statement. And at the beginning of this next video, he tells a personal story about why he [b]had to get married:

YouTube video

Once they leave the topic of marriage, the rest of the video isn't relevant.

So really, it has less to do with God, and more to do with why the hell I only get a tax break if I jump through a specific government hoop that is arrogant enough to legislate love and f*cking. [/B]

That is not what they legislate.

They legislate against those who would discriminate against people without a just cause.

They legislate against homophobic people who cannot mind their own business and who discriminate without a just cause.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
That's not totally true.

"The scheme proposed by the pope was for twelve large figures of the Apostles to occupy the pendentives.[10] However Michelangelo negotiated for a grander, much more complex scheme and was finally permitted, in his own words, "to do as I liked".[11] His scheme for the ceiling eventually comprised some three hundred figures and took four years to execute, being completed in 1512.[5][9] It is unknown and is the subject of much speculation among art historians as to whether Michelangelo was really able to "do as he liked".[10] It has been suggested that Egidio da Viterbo was a consultant for the Theology.[12] Many writers consider that Michelangelo had the intellect, the Biblical knowledge and the powers of invention to have devised the scheme himself. This is supported by Condivi's statement that Michelangelo read and reread the Old Testament while he was painting the ceiling, drawing his inspiration from the words of the scripture, rather than from the established traditions of sacral art.[13] There was a total of 343 figures painted on the ceiling."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sistine_Chapel_ceiling

Some pope went and sliced the penis' from many statues. If they did not want breasts on Satan, they would have painted over them.

Satan just shows the Christian misogynistic mind set.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Some pope went and sliced the penis' from many statues. If they did not want breasts on Satan, they would have painted over them.

Satan just shows the Christian misogynistic mind set.

Regards
DL

Well, not really. The pope was heterosexual and not gay. Penises are offensive, but breasts are not.

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Few who are not married look after the kids of others so the question is quite pertinent.

Regards
DL

No, idiots who don't want kids don't take care of them, and those who do, do. Nothing would change because a piece of paper wasn't signed.

Originally posted by Greatest I am
That is not what they legislate.

They legislate against those who would discriminate against people without a just cause.

They legislate against homophobic people who cannot mind their own business and who discriminate without a just cause.

Regards
DL

What is marriage if not love (and ****ing)? It's legislating those things. Period. You can dress it up however you want, but that's what it is.

Your next couple sentences are incredibly confusing. You need to clarify your pronouns, at the very least.

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Governments want children and do not mind rewarding people for providing them. After all, kids are expensive projects.

Regards
DL

Anthropomorphizing governments now? Governments don't want anything. They're not sentient.

You misunderstood me, though. Forget kids for a second. If my gf and I got married and nothing else, I'd get a tax break and so would she. The LGBT solution has been to try to equalize it by adding gay marriage. I think equality should be achieved by not incentivizing it in the first place, because it's forcing people (poor people, at that) into a decision. Or the Penn Jillette example about his kids, which is another nefarious incentive and way for them to worm their way into a personal matter.

So let me put it this way: are you defending marriage now, after calling for its abolishment in the OP? And also after saying you think free choice should reign in the issue, which is mitigated by government's selective acknowledgement of marriage AND tax breaks? And do you condone legislating love? Do you think Penn should have had to marry to ensure he'd keep his children if something were to happen to his wife?

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Few who are not married look after the kids of others so the question is quite pertinent.

Regards
DL

i ran out of edit time on my earlier post, but there's one more thing to add here:

I wonder if you actually watched the videos, because his thesis isn't to remove marriage. It's to remove governmental legislation on marriage. Religious marriage? Still intact. Civil contracts? Still intact. So your objection here presupposes a straw man that neither I not Jillette is advocating. We just want it to be a personal choice, not a nationally acknowledged state with financial, legal, and legislative implications.

Originally posted by Digi
because it's forcing people (poor people, at that) into a decision.

Marriage has always been all about money or its equivalent.

Originally posted by Bentley
Marriage has always been all about money or its equivalent.

And that makes it right to have federal legislation that acknowledges some but not others? And gives arbitrary tax breaks when an equivalent living situation is left in the cold? Again, it's legislating and defining love, arguably the most personal of experiences.

This is a reason it happens like it does, not a reason it should happen like it does. If anyone is taking the other side, I'd present the same questions to them that I did to GIA in the last paragraph a few posts up.

Re: Should people marry? It seems that God would forbid it.

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Should people marry? It seems that God would forbid it.

Christian scriptures say that in heaven, there is no marriage.

When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.
http://biblehub.com/mark/12-25.htm

As above so below, on earth as it is in heaven, indicates that when God returns to reclaim dominion from Satan, marriage will be abolished.

Why then do most religion of the Abrahamic root advocate marriage at all. Especially the polygamy. God does not favor marriage. If no two souls are to marry in heaven, then the law on earth should be that no two people marry.

We should emulate Jesus in all things and remember that as a Jew, he was almost forced by tradition to marry yet never did even though Gnostic Christian scriptures show him as loving Mary Magdalen more than his male disciples. Even kissing her on the (unknown parts). That is why I suggest that Jesus married Mary. Marriage was expected of all Rabbis.

This modern Gnostic Christian thinks marriage is the way to go, with a single mate, be that a mate of the same gender or not. Love is what is important. Not gender. That aside, I think that frees choice should reign in this issue.

Do you think we should abolish marriage and move closer to God’s heavenly law?

Regards
DL

Since we live on earth and earth is rotten and lonely place cause of sin and evil, man is better not to be alone as God said.

Jesus did not marry Mary, you are wrong and stupid to imply that.

Re: Re: Should people marry? It seems that God would forbid it.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Since we live on earth and earth is rotten and lonely place cause of sin and evil, man is better not to be alone as God said.

Jesus did not marry Mary, you are wrong and stupid to imply that.

The Earth is not a "rotten and lonely place". Evil is in the action, not in the place. Also, there is the Gnostic Gospel of Mary Magdalene, that suggests that Jesus was married. Therefore it isn't stupid to say that Jesus was married. It makes no sense that Jesus was not married. You had to be married in order to be a Rabi.

http://gnosis.org/library/marygosp.htm

Re: Re: Should people marry? It seems that God would forbid it.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Since we live on earth and earth is rotten and lonely place cause of sin and evil, man is better not to be alone as God said.

Jesus did not marry Mary, you are wrong and stupid to imply that.

You do know he says Mary Magdalene, yeah? Your use of only the first name could easily be confused with his mom.

But really, were you there? He's referring to the gnostic gospels. Which, in terms of empirical evidence for their validity, are on equal footing with the more traditionally accepted gospels. Which is to say, no solid footing whatsoever. But when some clergymen get together to arbitrarily pick the canon, continuity is better than being thorough for the sake of a contrary argument.

Re: Re: Re: Should people marry? It seems that God would forbid it.

Originally posted by Digi
You do know he says Mary Magdalene, yeah? Your use of only the first name could easily be confused with his mom.

But really, were you there? He's referring to the gnostic gospels. Which, in terms of empirical evidence for their validity, are on equal footing with the more traditionally accepted gospels. Which is to say, no solid footing whatsoever. But when some clergymen get together to arbitrarily pick the canon, continuity is better than being thorough for the sake of a contrary argument.

You do realize that the OP is Lucifer the Devil, yes?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Should people marry? It seems that God would forbid it.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
You do realize that the OP is Lucifer the Devil, yes?

Stop it. I'm beginning to think that what they say about you is true.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Should people marry? It seems that God would forbid it.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Stop it. I'm beginning to think that what they say about you is true.

Oh please.

Anyways if its half as bad as they say, it for sure to be twice as good as them🙂

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Should people marry? It seems that God would forbid it.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Oh please.

Anyways if its half as bad as they say, it for sure to be twice as good as them🙂

🙄 😂

Originally posted by Digi
And that makes it right to have federal legislation that acknowledges some but not others? And gives arbitrary tax breaks when an equivalent living situation is left in the cold? Again, it's legislating and defining love, arguably the most personal of experiences.

This is a reason it happens like it does, not a reason it should happen like it does. If anyone is taking the other side, I'd present the same questions to them that I did to GIA in the last paragraph a few posts up.

Your challenge was accepted by Thomas Sowell at least 6 years ago, Digi.

I've yet to find anyone who has a genuinely good counter to what he wrote then, excerpted below:


====================================================

Why is marriage considered to be any of the law's business in the first place? Because the state asserts an interest in the outcomes of certain unions, separate from and independent of the interests of the parties themselves.

In the absence of the institution of marriage, the individuals could arrange their relationship whatever way they wanted to, making it temporary or permanent, and sharing their worldly belongings in whatever way they chose.

Marriage means that the government steps in, limiting or even prescribing various aspects of their relations with each other -- and still more their relationship with whatever children may result from their union.

In other words, marriage imposes legal restrictions, taking away rights that individuals might otherwise have. Yet "gay marriage" advocates depict marriage as an expansion of rights to which they are entitled.

They argue against a "ban on gay marriage" but marriage has for centuries meant a union of a man and a woman. There is no gay marriage to ban.

Analogies with bans against interracial marriage are bogus. Race is not part of the definition of marriage. A ban on interracial marriage is a ban on the same actions otherwise permitted because of the race of the particular people involved. It is a discrimination against people, not actions.

Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes said that the life of the law has not been logic but experience. Vast numbers of laws have accumulated and evolved over the centuries, based on experience with male-female unions.

There is no reason why all those laws should be transferred willy-nilly to a different union, one with no inherent tendency to produce children nor the inherent asymmetries of relationships between people of different sexes.

Despite attempts to evade these asymmetries with such fashionable phrases as "a pregnant couple" or references to "spouses" rather than husbands and wives, these asymmetries take many forms and have many repercussions, which laws attempt to deal with on the basis of experience, rather than theories or rhetoric.

Wives, for example, typically invest in the family by restricting their own workforce participation, if only long enough to take care of small children. Studies show such differences still persisting in this liberated age, and even among women and men with postgraduate degrees from Harvard and Yale.

In the absence of marriage laws, a husband could dump his wife at will and she could lose decades of investment in their relationship. Marriage laws seek to recoup some of that investment for her through alimony when divorce occurs.

Those who think of women and men in the abstract consider it right that ex-husbands should be as entitled to alimony as ex-wives. But what are these ex-husbands being compensated for?

And why should any of this experience apply to same-sex unions, where there are not the same inherent asymmetries nor the same tendency to produce children?
====================================================

http://townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/2006/08/15/gay_marriage/page/full

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
You do realize that the OP is Lucifer the Devil, yes?

Is this...this is serious, isn't it? Ok. GIA, I disagree with you, but I don't think you're Lucifer. Bonus buddy points??

fdog

But TI, you never answered my question. Were you aware of the distinction he was making, and the texts to which he refers?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
In the absence of the institution of marriage, the individuals could arrange their relationship whatever way they wanted to, making it temporary or permanent, and sharing their worldly belongings in whatever way they chose.

This sounds awfully close to ideal to me, yet it's your boy's worst nightmare.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Marriage means that the government steps in, limiting or even prescribing various aspects of their relations with each other -- and still more their relationship with whatever children may result from their union.

Wait, when did children enter into this? I purposefully pulled the conversation away from this a minute ago. Wait, this isn't...

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
In other words, marriage imposes legal restrictions, taking away rights that individuals might otherwise have. Yet "gay marriage" advocates depict marriage as an expansion of rights to which they are entitled.

...yep, it is. *sigh*

Beyond the mischaracterizations of opposing arguments and obliviousness to the bigotry perpetuated through such reasoning, this isn't what we were talking about at all. Go down this rabbit hole with whomever wishes to follow you. I won't be among them.

Digi sorry I got distracted and now I'm being lazy watching Alaska off road warriors. Well talk tomorrow.

Re: Should people marry? It seems that God would forbid it.

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Should people marry? It seems that God would forbid it.

Christian scriptures say that in heaven, there is no marriage ...

You're asking a Bible question and referring to Christian scriptures; seems only appropriate to respond with what the Bible itself says:


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 Corinthians 7-9
[Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)]

7 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. 2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. 3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband. 4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife. 5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency. 6 But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment. 7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.

8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. 9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: 11 but and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. 13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. 15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace. 16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?
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https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+7-9

Originally posted by Digi
And that makes it right to have federal legislation that acknowledges some but not others?

Should the government do only things that are right? By which standard?

Did you think that's playing devil's advocate? Wait until you see my next paragraph 😈

Giving incentive to people who might have children is a way of speculating. Is speculation bad then? Are you trying to cause a major market crash Digi?

Originally posted by Bentley
Should the government do only things that are right? By which standard?

Did you think that's playing devil's advocate? Wait until you see my next paragraph 😈

Giving incentive to people who might have children is a way of speculating. Is speculation bad then? Are you trying to cause a major market crash Digi?

Lol.

We're getting too complicated, though. It's easy to fall into marriage's defense on a legislative level. It's what we've always done, and it's not the hot-button issue that many other controversies are. The point I'm making is simple: there's no reason the government needs to be involved, and several good examples of how it can be a negative (as with the Penn Jillette example, or the far more polarizing LGBT stuff). We're all adults, yeah? Why not just let everyone decide for themselves? Religions can still do their thing, as can anyone else. The operative idea is personal freedom. And slippery slope arguments (marrying animals, etc.) are quickly squashed by informed consent laws.

It's not about right or wrong. If you remove government intervention from the equation, that question ceases to exist. You can only dictate morality from a governmental level if you're legislating it.

On a slightly different topic, I actually have less objection to tax credits for children. That's about financial burden. It's an economic issue, not an arbitrary preferential one.