So there's that quote of Lucas's which Nemobro was kind enough to repost for me, plus Lucas's protege Dave Filoni also reckons ROTJ Luke would not be the equal of any PT Council Member:
"And Luke, let's face it, he was never really the best. I have a notion that anyone on the Council could really kick his butt. He had a lot of heart though, right? He had a lot going for him. And almost it was what he didn't know that made him really dangerous to the Emperor, it's just love for his father -- but he wasn't going to take you out with his lightsaber skills, that was for sure. "
http://uk.ign.com/articles/2012/03/...ack-at-season-4
As for Yoda's dialogue, Filoni seems to suggest Luke's real mission all along, was to redeem Vader. ^ Above he says "And almost it was what he didn't know that made him really dangerous to the Emperor, it's just love for his father --" and says it again here while also pointing out Luke's lack of formal training again:
"I mean, on a basic level at this point he's so much better trained than Luke could ever be. It's just an interesting take on what are all these other people that have the Force doing? And how do we not have that interfere with the blinding light, the New Hope that Luke Skywalker becomes? Luke's mission in the Force is very specific. Learn to be selfless. Selfless enough to save your Father. To realize that you can forgive and redeem. And that's a bit different than where we're going with Ezra and Kanan for sure."
^ Now I perfectly understand that if people want to strictly follow Legends here, then yes Luke was legitimately Vader's equal. In fact I think that was Lucas's original intention, which is why the ROTJ Novel says as much.
But he's revamped a lot of stuff since the Prequels (I mean Owen isn't Ben's brother now), and basically we have to take all the dialogue in that movie with a grain of salt. Whatever Yoda, Kenobi and Vader are telling him, Lucas and Filoni now want us to believe that they were all basically telling Luke what he needed to hear, or just outright manipulating him.
So Official Canon (Lucas's official canon that is) is now very different to Legends on the matter. And I know in the past Legends would bow down in rank to what Lucas says, but I'm not sure if that's the case anymore.
I will be interested to see Disney's take on the matter. But considering Filoni's position under Disney, and him commenting on it again during a "Rebels" interview, my guess is Disney will be following the Post PT Lucas and Filoni's take on it.
If however Disney change that and say ROTJ Luke was Vader's equal, then I would just ignore what Lucas says in the ROTJ Commentary. And take Filoni's lines as his own personal extreme opinion.
"His" specific notion was that ROTJ Luke can't match even Coleman Trebor.
However this "but he wasn't going to take you out with his lightsaber skills, that was for sure" relating to ROTJ Luke vs Vader and/or Palpatine, seems to be presented as fact.
Bear in mind Even Filoni's opinions should be seriously considered as, if not perfect truth, then somewhere close to the truth at least. Given his position as one of the biggest creators of Official SW Canon, and as Lucas' s protege.
So I'd personally take his opinions over Legend sourcebooks and largely Revamped 25 year old novels anyday.
I mean... the only thing that really contradicts the notion that Luke was Vader's near-equal is Filoni's commentary... and he wasn't one of the people involved in the original trilogy or Luke's progression as a character. But if you want to put all of your stock into his opinion that Luke is so useless he couldn't even beat Coleman Trebor then by all means, do so.
And also, Filoni typically ignores important aspects of characters for whatever reason. He thinks Luke having little training is a massive issue, but then Luke has always been exceptional because of his Force potential, allowing him to learn at an accelerated pace. This is even evident from the films given what he is able to accomplish in such a short space of time.
It's Filoni's comments and Lucas' s in the ROTJ commentary. Lucas already said Luke wasn't trained well enough to be a match for Vader. Filoni takes it further saying he wasn't yet equal to Council level members.
Filoni was Lucas's protege. They've had extensive conversations for years about the OT and PT and how all those pieces fit together. And Filoni is a creator of official canon in a really big way in the PT and now OT time period as well.
Taking all that I'd put ROTJ Luke approx on par with TPM Kenobi. Or perhaps AOTC Anakin.
Like them, Luke was capable of kicking some butt and going toe to toe with a Sith Lord(especially when Enraged), but still not close to fulfilling his potential or being on par with top tiers. That's my opinion on the matter.
If we stick to purely Legends sources and the ROTJ Novelization, then yes ROTJ Luke and Vader were equals.
But if we take the canon hierarchy and put Lucas's most recent comments on top, then ROTJ Luke was only Half Trained and not equipped to deal with the likes of Vader.
I'd personally say putting ROTJ Luke on par with AOTC Anakin is pretty fair to Luke. Given Luke's small amount of formal training and Anakin's higher potential, Luke would have to be amazing to have reached even that level by ROTJ.
Originally posted by Angelalex242
...This is the EU thread, to be fair, so the EU/Legends rules apply.If this same thread were on the original trilogy board, it would be different.
But as nobody wants a canon debate let's not have one.
Well no one said this is a pure Legends board. It's an EU board. I don't see the word Legends in the board names of the rules anywhere.
In fact the rules actually give priority to the movies and Lucas's statements.
But I admit rules surrounding "Legends" are a bit of a grey area right now considering the canon changes Disney has made.
Of course the OP didn't say "Legends Only" so I don't see why the statements of the higher canon authorities including Lucas himself wouldn't apply.