Originally posted by maxivitopowe
really, you don't think that Tony is enough of a cold bastard to call him on his bluff?
I made the assumption based on Tony before the Axis inversion - after the inversion, no.
But before the inversion? No, I don't think so. His fight against Grey Gargoyle - when he was pissed off at Paul because of what happened to Paris, shows that. he isn't just out for himself.
Not to mention - who said it was a bluff? This was the guy who out-pokered Darkseid.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I am assuming all the secrets of each other's lairs are open. Which is to say, Batman's ultra paranoid booby traps won't attack Tony etc.Batman wins. Tony shows up with a super upgraded version of the Justice Buster, with a new power source giving him 500% more power, coupled with his hacking of the Bat computer which teaches him about the Speed Force and enables him to jury rig a facsimile etc.
Batman shows up with a new Bat suit, which is promptly disabled by Tony using a hidden backdoor code. Whilst Tony gloats over the motionless Batman, now frozen within his suit, Bruce wins.
'You didn't think we'd come to Metropolis and not call HIM, did you?'
'Ah yes. Your alien chum. I've read about him in your files. Kryptonite, was it? So kind of you to provide a sample for me too. I even made a new cocktail with it. Has quite a kick. By the way, you're out of Scotch.'
THOOM
Superman dies.
'That wasn't...the only plan I had....'
CLICK.
'I've just armed 25 bombs around this city. I know what you can do. Your...Extremis. You're fast, but not that fast....Give up.'
'You wouldn't dare! You're a hero!'
'You've read my files. What do you think?'
'Bruce.....you win. You monster.'
If he read Bruce's files wouldn't he see that Bruce....isn't infact a monster and call his bluff?
Originally posted by JayDaDon
If he read Bruce's files wouldn't he see that Bruce....isn't infact a monster and call his bluff?
What would Batman have in his Batcomputer files?
All those tender moments between him and Damian?
Family outings with the Waynes?
His charitable donations?
How much he cares for Alfred, including his generous pension scheme etc?
A greatest hits compilation of all his greatest achievements?
OR
Ways to take down supervillains
Ways to take down Superman
Ways to take down the JLA
Details of how much he has already spent in order to take them down
Advanced blackmail files on world leaders/Amanda Waller etc
An extensive database on poisons and mind control techniques
Backdoors into all his most trusted allies' and villains' computer networks, if he can get them
Cyberwarfare programs (such as override codes for the watchtower).
One of them paints a picture of a dangerous paranoid who will do whatever it takes to win. Guess which one Bruce will have in the Batcave.
Of course, Tony too has these files on his allies and enemies. But it is tempered by all those grandiose plans to better the world. Whereas Bruce's files are dedicated to one thing only, winning fights.
Originally posted by JayDaDon
Well sure he has all those plans but they mostly would fall in line with the general knowledge Tony would have of Batman. Nothing there would suggest he would be willing to consider mass murder.
Relying on General Knowledge of Batman is always dicey. After all, he THRIVES on inspiring fear in the general public - otherwise, his threats to villains etc are moot.
And if he's willing to consider attacking his own team mates, who knows how far he'd go? All you need is the slight POSSIBILITY that this human-level guy, who had some childhood trauma and used that to train himself to crazy levels, dress up in (in Tony's opinion) shitty substandard armour, and hangs around with some of the weirdest criminals ever, WOULD cross the line. And the fact that the general knowledge of Bats is that whilst a hero, may or may not be a vampire monster/alien/myth/whatever, only helps that.
After all, why fight in the 1st place? That's OOC. Batman and Tony would sooner unite in a boring teamup than fight.
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Still unnecessary. I don't get the big deal with upgrades. Especially for Tony. His whole thing is being a normal human in a super suit of armor. There's nothing wrong with having a weakness. It makes the characters more appealing. Like why make Hulk insanely strong AND smart? Totally destroyed characterization. I hate it
Upgrading has always been a part of his character though. It's his thing. Hero of the future and all that.
everyone assumes it will be a pure tech battle using armor. Here's a few things to consider.
1. Bruce is paranoid even if Tony can use everything in the bat cave. I'm pretty sure Bruce will have some sort of security to tell him someone not part of the bat family is assessing his files. From there it will be pretty easy for Bruce to find out who and what the person is doing.
2. Bruce is the world greatest detective, it won't take him long to find out Tony was an alcoholic and is 1 of the world best robotics expert in the country. No way is Bruce going to create a power armor superior to him in 10 hours.
3. As in Batman issue 35 he's going to have something built to take down Cyborg, maybe a bunch of portable EMP mini bomb, or nanobots designed to tear, paralyze or destroy armor or electronics.
4. I think this idea of Bruce threatening to blow up a city is stupid. Bruce isn't a killer unless there's absolutely no choice. But I do think he could tell Tony unless he surrenders he's already hacked in Tony's mainframe computer and would sell Stark Industries stock for pennies on the dollar.
5. Bruce STR is finding weakness in the strongest opponents and misdirection. I could easily see Bruce meeting Tony in a variation of the IM suit. Tony using a secret code freezing Batman in it. As Tony walks up to Bruce telling him he always create a backdoor in his armor for such a situation. Bruce from a couple blocks away blows up the armor, and we find out it was a robot Bruce inside the armor all along. Batman then says I known, I was counting on it. Batman then proceeds to beat the living daylights out of a stunned IM with a damaged suit.
6. Another possibility is mini cluster bombs designed to go off when a person in an armor suit flies by or walks by.
Anyway you get the idea, I could post another 3 or 4 scenario on how Bruce would defeat Tony if necessary. But the bottom line is Bruce will beat him not because he's a better techie, but because he's a better tactician.
Originally posted by relentless1
Batman is a much better tactician than Tony, he'd win
So is Captain America, but this didn't stop Tony from beating the crap out of him, and this was when Tony was weaker, and less sophisticated than he is now. Why do you need tactics when you have on board computers capable of tracking your opponents every move, and finding an opening? Then again I've seen people arguing that Batman moves at the speed of light, and thus makes guys in his tier look inferior to him in every way. You know where I'm going with this?
Also what is 10 hours going to really do for him? If he does what the OP suggests that he would do, he would be in a suit that Tony could take control of. How long has batman been in the armor business that gives him even a remote advantage over Tony in a world that he has defined? Bruce would be in Tony's house under these stips, not the other way around.
Originally posted by shadowknight
everyone assumes it will be a pure tech battle using armor. Here's a few things to consider.1. Bruce is paranoid even if Tony can use everything in the bat cave. I'm pretty sure Bruce will have some sort of security to tell him someone not part of the bat family is assessing his files. From there it will be pretty easy for Bruce to find out who and what the person is doing.
2. Bruce is the world greatest detective, it won't take him long to find out Tony was an alcoholic and is 1 of the world best robotics expert in the country. No way is Bruce going to create a power armor superior to him in 10 hours.
3. As in Batman issue 35 he's going to have something built to take down Cyborg, maybe a bunch of portable EMP mini bomb, or nanobots designed to tear, paralyze or destroy armor or electronics.
4. I think this idea of Bruce threatening to blow up a city is stupid. Bruce isn't a killer unless there's absolutely no choice. But I do think he could tell Tony unless he surrenders he's already hacked in Tony's mainframe computer and would sell Stark Industries stock for pennies on the dollar.
5. Bruce STR is finding weakness in the strongest opponents and misdirection. I could easily see Bruce meeting Tony in a variation of the IM suit. Tony using a secret code freezing Batman in it. As Tony walks up to Bruce telling him he always create a backdoor in his armor for such a situation. Bruce from a couple blocks away blows up the armor, and we find out it was a robot Bruce inside the armor all along. Batman then says I known, I was counting on it. Batman then proceeds to beat the living daylights out of a stunned IM with a damaged suit.
6. Another possibility is mini cluster bombs designed to go off when a person in an armor suit flies by or walks by.
Anyway you get the idea, I could post another 3 or 4 scenario on how Bruce would defeat Tony if necessary. But the bottom line is Bruce will beat him not because he's a better techie, but because he's a better tactician.
1. Tony no longer even needs the armor to be superhuman though. He doesn't need any of Bruce's tech to pull a win here.
2. What does used to be an alcoholic have to do with anything?
3. Is he going to do all of this in 10 hours?
4. Tony would know that Bruce was trying to hack into his system before Bruce even touched a piece of hardware. This isn't going to happen, and it would burn up the precious time that he had to come up with a feasible, and realistic way why he'd do anything other than what the OP suggests that he would do.
5. After all of the scenarios that you ran through, which approach is Bruce going to use? Is he going to attempt to do all of the things that you suggested earlier or what? He only has 10 hours, not 10 months.
6. Okay again, do you really think that bombs are going to work against a guy that made his suit highly resistant to such things? So far the only thing that i read from you are scenarios that probably wouldn't work given the time constraints that were placed on the scenario.
Tony wins, he's just too sophisticated at this point for Batman to just undermine every layer of redundancy that he has put into play in the little time that he is given here. Tony on the other hand can see everything that Bruce does while viewing him with hidden cams located all over his stomping grounds. He could even have Bruce dodging his armors for the entire time, denying him the opportunity to do anything more than go on the defensive. Tony is a technopath in case some may have forgotten.
Originally posted by Stoic
So is Captain America, but this didn't stop Tony from beating the crap out of him, and this was when Tony was weaker, and less sophisticated than he is now. Why do you need tactics when you have on board computers capable of tracking your opponents every move, and finding an opening? Then again I've seen people arguing that Batman moves at the speed of light, and thus makes guys in his tier look inferior to him in every way. You know where I'm going with this?Also what is 10 hours going to really do for him? If he does what the OP suggests that he would do, he would be in a suit that Tony could take control of. How long has batman been in the armor business that gives him even a remote advantage over Tony in a world that he has defined? Bruce would be in Tony's house under these stips, not the other way around.
Batman>>>>Cap in intelligence. Not even close.
Originally posted by shadowknight
everyone assumes it will be a pure tech battle using armor. Here's a few things to consider.1. Bruce is paranoid even if Tony can use everything in the bat cave. I'm pretty sure Bruce will have some sort of security to tell him someone not part of the bat family is assessing his files. From there it will be pretty easy for Bruce to find out who and what the person is doing.
2. Bruce is the world greatest detective, it won't take him long to find out Tony was an alcoholic and is 1 of the world best robotics expert in the country. No way is Bruce going to create a power armor superior to him in 10 hours.
3. As in Batman issue 35 he's going to have something built to take down Cyborg, maybe a bunch of portable EMP mini bomb, or nanobots designed to tear, paralyze or destroy armor or electronics.
4. I think this idea of Bruce threatening to blow up a city is stupid. Bruce isn't a killer unless there's absolutely no choice. But I do think he could tell Tony unless he surrenders he's already hacked in Tony's mainframe computer and would sell Stark Industries stock for pennies on the dollar.
5. Bruce STR is finding weakness in the strongest opponents and misdirection. I could easily see Bruce meeting Tony in a variation of the IM suit. Tony using a secret code freezing Batman in it. As Tony walks up to Bruce telling him he always create a backdoor in his armor for such a situation. Bruce from a couple blocks away blows up the armor, and we find out it was a robot Bruce inside the armor all along. Batman then says I known, I was counting on it. Batman then proceeds to beat the living daylights out of a stunned IM with a damaged suit.
6. Another possibility is mini cluster bombs designed to go off when a person in an armor suit flies by or walks by.
Anyway you get the idea, I could post another 3 or 4 scenario on how Bruce would defeat Tony if necessary. But the bottom line is Bruce will beat him not because he's a better techie, but because he's a better tactician.
We are in the same camp, but calling other plans stupid when yours is....not quite the smartest, is amusing.
We aren't all assuming its a pure tech battle.
1. Read the OP
2. Nobody thinks that.
3. Like Tony has never gone up against EMPs before
4. Crucial line there, absolutely no choice. IOW, there is a chance that he will. And that is all you need for some doubt to creep in. Tony is an egotist. He thinks he is the mutts nuts. Of course he is going to see Bruce as below him - so if this mere human thinks he's got a chance, and he's seen the lengths Bruce is prepared to go to - the Bat guy MUST have something up his sleeve. Also, what's to stop Stark from doing the same to Waynetech?
5. Lol.
6. So he won't plant bombs around the city (which he knows pretty well, it being Metropolis and all) but would use cluster bombs....
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Of course, Tony too has these files on his allies and enemies. But it is tempered by all those grandiose plans to better the world. Whereas Bruce's files are dedicated to one thing only, winning fights.
Not sure if all this is still applicable nu52, but... Tony being the dick that he is these days probably means those files on his allies and enemies are just as extensive as Batman's. And if Tony has access to Wayne Tower (under the assumption this is Batman's company) wouldn't he also conclude from the records that Wayne Industries is actually a pretty moral company that does good in the world, environmentally conscious, vast philanthropic acts etc? And probably he would actually find that generous pension plan of Alfred's from Wayne - it's not like it would be classified information.
He might also deduce from available evidence that Batman doesn't use guns and never seems to kill anyone - even scum like the Joker who escapes and murders repeatedly. Doesn't Batman log and record the results of his crimefighting activities for future reference and for Robin etc? And maybe he knows Superman wouldn't really partner with some murderous psychopath who blows up civilians. It should be enough to call any bomb bluff.
But I do think that Batman would try something else than an armored confrontation, unless that was the opening gambit of a more subtle plan.
Maybe before hostilities begin offer Tony a drink... or two... or three...
Originally posted by basilisk
Not sure if all this is still applicable nu52, but... Tony being the dick that he is these days probably means those files on his allies and enemies are just as extensive as Batman's. And if Tony has access to Wayne Tower (under the assumption this is Batman's company) wouldn't he also conclude from the records that Wayne Industries is actually a pretty moral company that does good in the world, environmentally conscious, vast philanthropic acts etc? And probably he would actually find that generous pension plan of Alfred's from Wayne - it's not like it would be classified information.He might also deduce from available evidence that Batman doesn't use guns and never seems to kill anyone - even scum like the Joker who escapes and murders repeatedly. Doesn't Batman log and record the results of his crimefighting activities for future reference and for Robin etc? And maybe he knows Superman wouldn't really partner with some murderous psychopath who blows up civilians. It should be enough to call any bomb bluff.
But I do think that Batman would try something else than an armored confrontation, unless that was the opening gambit of a more subtle plan.
Maybe before hostilities begin offer Tony a drink... or two... or three...
Oh yes, 100% agree - the files themselves do NOT mean that you can automatically assume that Batman is capable of bombing. After all, like you and I have both said, Tony too has files on his enemies/allies (see the sentinels in Axis, for example).
He does indeed catalogue all the case files - which themselves would paint the picture of a guy who deals with deranged psychopaths day in, day out. But more importantly, who TAKES what his enemies use, and uses their own methods for himself (for example, Mr Freeze's tech, Scarecrow's fear toxins etc).
And of course, you're right, he could go through the case files etc. But this is Tony. Tell him a big fight is about to go down, and he won't go psychoanalyse his opponent. He'd build a big armoured suit.
Originally posted by Golgo13
Based on what?
Based on the idea that Batman would be attempting to hit Tony, while Tony learns his every move, and avoids his assault with an on board computer that anticipates his next move. Not sure what intelligence has to do with anything? Batman isn't going to suddenly learn moves that he has no idea of.