Darth Traya and Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane and Darth Zannah

Originally posted by appletonia
How sure are we that Bane and Zannah wouldn't be able to defend against Traya's attack?

There's no evidence to the contrary.

Originally posted by Selenial
Team one would Slaughter either way, Giga drain or no.

Traya > Bane
Surik > Zannah tbh.

Surik > Bane too but that's an argument for another day.

Without her drain Bane would kick the crap out of Traya. He can charge through her powers and easily overwhelm her in close quarters. Or he can obliterate her with lightning. The same goes for Surik.

On the flipside, Zannah would similarly kill either. Neither is getting through her defenses, force or sabers, and her mental assault would overwhelm both of them.

Lol at Zannah being better at TP than Traya, much lols.

Her defense was never tested against a master swordsman, Bane pales in comparison to Surik so don't even try that.

Are you trying to say Bane is stronger than all three members of the council put together? Traya is a force Titan that would play with him like a toy. She never faced an opponent she could not overwhelm with the force other than Surik, which is a testament to Suriks power not the other way around.

Bane wouldn't last against Traya to be honest, she's simply better.

Same with Zannah and Surik, Soresu cannot compare to a master of Juyo, that's stated in multiple sources, a dueling form that Surik happened to Perfect.

What you seem to forget is that Wound-Meetra can feed off an Opponents knowledge and learn their force forms and Lightsaber forms in seconds, diagnosing any weakness immediately. She'll know how to break through Zannah.

Not to mention their Force bond allows Traya all of Suriks boosts, Stamina, Strength, enlightenment, Force Resistance, everything. Even her skill in the art of Dueling, which as almost everyone bar you can admit, is the strongest here.

Sorcery isn't telepathy. Zannah's schtick is different than Kreia's thing. And it is better. Bane was able to laugh off Kaan's mental influence, the guy who was playing hundreds of Sith Lords as his puppets, yet was on his knees to Zannah. Bane has some of the best mental resistance of any character, yet her fully charged spell would have torn his mind in half. Traya couldn't even resist Malachor.

Bane can likely blitz Surik. Or at least finish her very quickly. He's a far superior duelist.

Yes. Traya caught them off guard when she attacked though. Hardly a ragdoll. And you mean other than Surik and Nihilus, surely?

Better at dying maybe. But in little other area.

Source that says she's perfect in the forms she copies? That she can use them doesn't indicate complete mastery like Bane and Zannah possess. And lawl, Bane's Juyo didn't get through Zannah's defenses. Why would a weaker, slower, less powerful duelist get through when he couldn't?

Seconds is an exaggeration, as you are wont to do. Nor does she diagnose their weaknesses. Please stop making shit up, as a Kotor 2 fan it's embarrassing.

The Force bond won't make a difference. It's hardly as big a factor as you make it out to be and never has been.

Originally posted by Nephthys
There's no evidence to the contrary.

The fact that they're transcendentally powerful Force Users?

KOTOR 2's story isn't so fresh in my mind so I was wondering if there was any evidence that the technique had no defence or something. Using it on the three council members or a dozen Sith Assassins is a far cry from being able to use it on Bane and Zannah.

Originally posted by Selenial
Lol at Zannah being better at TP than Traya, much lols.

Her defense was never tested against a master swordsman, Bane pales in comparison to Surik so don't even try that.

Are you trying to say Bane is stronger than all three members of the council put together? Traya is a force Titan that would play with him like a toy. She never faced an opponent she could not overwhelm with the force other than Surik, which is a testament to Suriks power not the other way around.

Bane wouldn't last against Traya to be honest, she's simply better.

Same with Zannah and Surik, Soresu cannot compare to a master of Juyo, that's stated in multiple sources, a dueling form that Surik happened to Perfect.

What you seem to forget is that Wound-Meetra can feed off an Opponents knowledge and learn their force forms and Lightsaber forms in seconds, diagnosing any weakness immediately. She'll know how to break through Zannah.

Not to mention their Force bond allows Traya all of Suriks boosts, Stamina, Strength, enlightenment, Force Resistance, everything. Even her skill in the art of Dueling, which as almost everyone bar you can admit, is the strongest here.

Jesus H. Christ... 🤨

Traya say theres no defense.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane can likely blitz Surik. Or at least finish her very quickly. He's a far superior duelist.

Yes. And you mean other than Surik [b]and Nihilus, surely?

Better at dying maybe. But in little other area.

Source that says she's perfect in the forms she copies? That she can use them doesn't indicate complete mastery like Bane and Zannah possess. And lawl, Bane's Juyo didn't get through Zannah's defenses. Why would a weaker, slower, less powerful duelist get through when he couldn't?

Seconds is an exaggeration, as you are wont to do. Nor does she diagnose their weaknesses. Please stop making shit up, as a Kotor 2 fan it's embarrassing.

The Force bond won't make a difference. It's hardly as big a factor as you make it out to be and never has been. [/B]

How on earth is Bane a stronger duelist. And faster? Ok, if Bane has feats of dodging lightsaber strikes from the Shadow Hand of Darth Nihilus long enough to literally pummel her into submission?

"I am studying your technique." "You think you can learn my technique just by watching? It takes a Jedi Master years to perfect it." "It takes a Jedi years to learn anything, restricted as they are by the Jedi. Nevertheless I have learned your form and will use it to end you" "it's not possible... You... You must be stopped."

Or

"I will kill you with your own tricks. Your techniques are so easily learned now." So... Yeh, if you're going to kill a Juyo master with Juyo, you at least match their abilities.

Prove that Bane > Surik then.

As for Force Bonds, they really do, your knowledge is pitiful.

Seriously, "as a kotor 2 fan" You're an embarrassment.

It's going down. Though tbh, Bane would demolish Surik and Traya.

Bane has no dueling feats that remotely compare to Surik's handling of Imperial Guardsmen and complete slaughter of the Sith Triumvirate on Malachor V.

Bane was getting thrashed in a duel by Raskta Lsu despite having literal plot armor and two amps to her own comparatively minor one.

Surik also has superior Battle Precog and Echani Precog feats than Bane can compare to, Lsu proved this case in her own right. Surik analysed and reacted against, almost immediately TK killing a merc, all in the space of half a second, goodluck blitzing that.

Bane has nothing on his belt without nexus amplification to suggest he is superior to Surik.

Also I'd love to see how you think Zannah > Traya in any department Neph.

Zannah uses mental assaults and the horror variant pretty exclusively off nexus, taking down Jedi such as Sarro Xaj. Traya has manipluated the minds and memories of numerous Jedi, including Jedi Masters without them even knowing about it.

Zannah has used Force Cloak techniques to strong degrees, enough to get a stealth kill on Lsu in mid-combat. Traya uses such techniques constantly with apparent ease to their highest degrees, hiding in plain sight from Jedi Masters and even travelling companions.

Zannah has with the aid of Lake Nath, an immense Dark Side nexus, summoned tendrils of pure Dark Side energy. Traya has drained Jedi Masters and Sith alike with ease and has shown Dark Healing abilities of the highest degree., all without a nexus.

Zannah has telekinetically assaulted Jedi and Darth Bane, Darth Traya effortlessly ragdolled High Council members with ease and has shown complete mastery of telekinesis with telekinetic lightsaber combat.

I could go on.

Tbh, Revan's display of telekinetic lightsaber combat is probably superior to Traya's.

Which display?

Originally posted by Selenial
How on earth is Bane a stronger duelist. And faster? Ok, if Bane has feats of dodging lightsaber strikes from the Shadow Hand of Darth Nihilus long enough to literally pummel her into submission?

"I am studying your technique." "You think you can learn my technique just by watching? It takes a Jedi Master years to perfect it." "It takes a Jedi years to learn anything, restricted as they are by the Jedi. Nevertheless I have learned your form and will use it to end you" "it's not possible... You... You must be stopped."

Or

"I will kill you with your own tricks. Your techniques are so easily learned now." So... Yeh, if you're going to kill a Juyo master with Juyo, you at least match their abilities.

Prove that Bane > Surik then.

As for Force Bonds, they really do, your knowledge is pitiful.

Seriously, "as a kotor 2 fan" You're an embarrassment.

LOL. Art thou mad, sister?

Well for one thing Bane's level of skill is actually quantifiable. His skill is comparable to Kas'im's, by all accounts Bane was a master all the lightsaber forms. He's a physical beast in terms of strength and speed. Lol at that BS feat. Visas has no lightsaber showings, how the fight went down is unknown and Bane evading Zannah unarmed, someone with actual speed feats, is far far more impressive.

Nothing indicating full mastery. And Vrook and Kavar are both featless in terms of dueling. Your statement is also false, theres plenty of ways to beat a more skilled duelist.

Bane's destruction of the Temple of the Ancients, his disintegration lightning and TK, his sheer strength and speed and numerous other advantages prove that. You need to prove Meetra wouldn't recieve the Nyriss treatment from him or Zannah.

The only difference it'll make is that when Bane cut's Traya's head off Meetra will probably shit herself as well before Zannah makes it a combo. Or perhaps Meetra being forced into insanity will make Traya go crazy....er as well. Not sure which will happen first tbh.

Against the Strike Teams on the Temple of Sacrifice. It's called "Force Wield." He throws around Alek's and his Mando Wars' lightsaber around the battlefield while being locked in a death battle with actual lightsabers against 8 of "the galaxy's most powerful champions."

Kavar and Vrook are both confirmed Masters of lightsaber combat, if they can teach someone to "mastery" of a form, they themselves have mastered it.

Visas is an assassin nonetheless, and you're thinking of the wrong duel. She was forced to face Visas with no blade by Traya, and no force attacks, and she won.

TBH AP covered the rest when he slaughtered you in the previous post, I don't need to say anything else.

Which is still an unknown level of skill, even were that true. Thousands of Jedi Knights and Masters have "mastered" their forms, yet get swatted aside by actually competent fighters. Big deal.

I assume that's cut content.

I didn't read his post. I'm talking to you, not him.

Bane has no dueling feats that remotely compare to Surik's handling of Imperial Guardsmen and complete slaughter of the Sith Triumvirate on Malachor V.

Bane was getting thrashed in a duel by Raskta Lsu despite having literal plot armor and two amps to her own comparatively minor one.

Surik also has superior Battle Precog and Echani Precog feats than Bane can compare to, Lsu proved this case in her own right. Surik analysed and reacted against, almost immediately TK killing a merc, all in the space of half a second, goodluck blitzing that.

Bane has nothing on his belt without nexus amplification to suggest he is superior to Surik.

Also I'd love to see how you think Zannah > Traya in any department Neph.

Zannah uses mental assaults and the horror variant pretty exclusively off nexus, taking down Jedi such as Sarro Xaj. Traya has manipluated the minds and memories of numerous Jedi, including Jedi Masters without them even knowing about it.

Zannah has used Force Cloak techniques to strong degrees, enough to get a stealth kill on Lsu in mid-combat. Traya uses such techniques constantly with apparent ease to their highest degrees, hiding in plain sight from Jedi Masters and even travelling companions.

Zannah has with the aid of Lake Nath, an immense Dark Side nexus, summoned tendrils of pure Dark Side energy. Traya has drained Jedi Masters and Sith alike with ease and has shown Dark Healing abilities of the highest degree., all without a nexus.

Zannah has telekinetically assaulted Jedi and Darth Bane, Darth Traya effortlessly ragdolled High Council members with ease and has shown complete mastery of telekinesis with telekinetic lightsaber combat.

I could go on.

There, you can reply now

Originally posted by Selenial
[B]Kavar and Vrook are both confirmed Masters of lightsaber combat, if they can teach someone to "mastery" of a form, they themselves have mastered it.[b]

You're kinda running off track Sel.

- They didn't train her in that form to "mastery" it was because of her superior learning ability attributed her by her wound. not them.

- We don't know what form any of the masters utilized, it is all dependent on what class(and prestige class) the player chooses. for we all know they could have been users of the force forms.

- I certainly hope you're not using Traya's quote of lightsaber combat for Vrook, Zez and Kavar. that's a quote for her, not for them.

Bane and Zannah win.

Prima Guide says the masters were superior Force Users then Lightsaber combatants.

POD Bane's skill ain't comparable to Kas'im's at all, Kas'Im switched things up and immediately Bane was losing. Bane won that fight through a telekinetic wave that collapsed the entrance on-top of the Twi'lek.

ROT Bane's skill was completely outmatched by Raskta Lsu's despite three massive advantages.

DOE Bane's skill has only allowed him to defeat Zannah, whom was already confirmed to be less skilled than her master in the first place.

MandoWars! Surik's skill allowed her a lead from the front style of leadership in places as hellish as Dxun and win against some of the deadliest Mandalorians in history.

TSL Surik's skill allowed her to fight through several major forces of opponents from the front and win all of them. Not to mention completely devastate the deadliest Sith the Triumvirate had to offer, including two of their leaders, all amped exponentially whilst fighting at, at best 80% strength and win solidly.

'Revan' Surik's skill allowed her to kill multiple Imperial Guard simultaneously whilst right infront of the Emperor, said Imperial Guard being the guys that make Dark Council members check under their beds at night.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
You're kinda running off track Sel.

- They didn't train her in that form to "mastery" it was because of her superior learning ability attributed her by her wound. not them.

- We don't know what form any of the masters utilized, it is all dependent on what class(and prestige class) the player chooses. for we all know they could have been users of the force forms.

- I certainly hope you're not using Traya's quote of lightsaber combat for Vrook, Zez and Kavar. that's a quote for her, not for them.

Bane and Zannah win.

The fact that we essentially have confirmed by ourselves that Surik followed the Guardian path due to numerous sourcebook statements referring to martial/saber skill based victories, then the lightsaber forms almost certainly would have been taught.

Now as much as I'd love to sit around and wax poetic with all of you, I have a new year to go and celebrate.

Happy New Year.