Luke Skywalker vs. Vitiate

Started by S_W_LeGenD8 pages

Originally posted by Stigma
👆

Agreed 👆

I assume your self-awarness and rationality enables you to see it also applies to your views, no?


For a recap:

- Luke and Krayt managed to defeat Abeloth with joint effort and both were equally impressive in this confrontation.

- Luke failed to defeat Lord Nyax on his own, he had help from other Jedi.

- Luke defeated Shimrra with support from Jacen.

- Luke's top feats have been matched by others.

I don't really get the assumption that Luke is infallible in versus scenarios. Noted that he outdueled Sidious once but this is it.

I am not sure how so many got the idea that Luke is the most powerful Force-user or is infallible. I assume poor judgment on their part.

My views are more realistic then norm here.

Um, I don't think anyone argues that Luke is infallible, but that he has what it takes to win. As it happens he can beat virtually anyone, so if that irritates you it's rather an emotional problem you profess to be detached from.

As to your examples, most of these are still superior to Vitiate's showings by far. Luke is also vastly more skilled as a duelist, much faster, has more powerful TK and, of course, unmatched raw power.

Originally posted by Stigma
Um, I don't think anyone argues that Luke is infallible, but that he has what it takes to win. As it happens he can beat virtually anyone, so if that irritates you it's rather an emotional problem you profess to be detached from.

So when does Luke falls in a versus debate? Any count?

Official information contradicts your claim that Luke can beat virtually anyone. If this was the case, he would have. But he didn't.

Again, I am not emotional about fiction. I am simply being rational.

Should I accuse you of being emotional about this matter? Kindly refrain from ad-honims.

Originally posted by Stigma
As to your examples, most of these are still superior to Vitiate's showings by far. Luke is also vastly more skilled as a duelist, much faster, has more powerful TK and, of course, unmatched raw power.

This is subjective argument. I don't see how Luke comes off very impressive in these events since he had help from others in tackling the challenges. He didn't soloed all of his challenges.

Yes, Luke is immensely skilled in martial aspects of combat but Emperor could afford to neglect these combat tactics by virtue of his extraordinary power and command of the dark side.

More powerful TK? Emperor collapsed a structure (in sheer essence form) and could perform impressive telekinetic actions without use of gestures such as he; [1] halted Scourge's lightsaber attack without gesture (just like Yoda did to Ventress), and [2] disintegrated a tough droid T3-M4 into countless parts without gesture. Though Emperor isn't much explored in these matters but he comes off as having premium TK ability. Even Emperor's inferiors have very impressive TK feats such as collapsing entire buildings, moving starships, and lot more stuff. You do the math now.

Unmatched raw power? Lord Nyax laughs at you.

In single combat, Emperor overwhelmed entire Strike Teams of powerful Force-users (individuals with feats and hype) without difficulty.

Holistically, Emperor also have grand showings like altering the environment of an entire planet, creating a powerful nexus, draining individuals from lightyear distances, possessing individuals, and influencing thousands of individuals with telepathic abilities across the galaxy.

--

But of-course, Emperor is no match for Luke by virtue of being an ancient. This is your reasoning in brief.

Luke slaughtered like 10,000 Vong warriors.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So when does Luke falls in a versus debate? Any count?

Not in the fight with Vitiate, if that’s what you ask 🙂

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Official information contradicts your claim that Luke can beat virtually anyone. If this was the case, he would have. But he didn't.

Luke does not need to solo a fight to display superior skill/speed/power than Vitiate.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Again, I am not emotional about fiction. I am simply being rational.

I see, so you must be really good at keeping the appearances then.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Should I accuse you of being emotional about this matter? Kindly refrain from ad-honims.

It was not ad hominem, and I am slightly offended that you should think so. If I was to use one I would say that you’re full of sh*t. But I won’t. biscuits

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is subjective argument.

All arguments here are subjective as they are a mixture of opinions and data.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes, Luke is immensely skilled in martial aspects of combat but Emperor could afford to neglect these combat tactics by virtue of his extraordinary power and command of the dark side.

Don’t hand-wave this point so easily. What it means, and what you either don’t comprehend or don’t want to acknowledge, is that Luke already possesses a tremendous advantage over Vitiate. He is vastly more skilled and efficient duelist. Thus, 50% of what constitutes a fight goes to Luke. 👆

The other 50% is force power and here Luke is still ahead of Vitiate.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
More powerful TK? Emperor collapsed a structure (in sheer essence form) and could perform impressive telekinetic actions without use of gestures such as he; [1] halted Scourge's lightsaber attack without gesture (just like Yoda did to Ventress), and [2] disintegrated a tough droid T3-M4 into countless parts without gesture.
Though Emperor isn't much explored in these matters but he comes off as having premium TK ability. Even Emperor's inferiors have very impressive TK feats such as collapsing entire buildings, moving starships, and lot more stuff. You do the math now

Force-holding Caedus in a chair against his will is already a more impressive TK feat than disintegrating a droid or snapping a lightsaber out of hand. The black hole feat that you particularly dislike is leaps and bounds ahead of Vitiate’s showings.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Unmatched raw power? Lord Nyax laughs at you.

No, rather he laughs at you as Nyax threw capital ships around, unlike Vitiate.

But to the point. Luke does have unmatched raw power, for as per GL Luke can become what his father hasn’t. Anakin—the Chosen One- has the potential to be twice as powerful as Palpatine. Hence, in raw power, Luke does too. [SWL] You do the math now [/SWL].

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
In single combat, Emperor overwhelmed entire Strike Teams of powerful Force-users (individuals with feats and hype) without difficulty.

His best combat feat as I recall.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Holistically, Emperor also have grand showings like altering the environment of an entire planet, creating a powerful nexus, draining individuals from lightyear distances, possessing individuals, and influencing thousands of individuals with telepathic abilities across the galaxy.

Unless he has prep and nexus amp and Luke is near comatose those will not come into play in a combat scenario.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
But of-course, Emperor is no match for Luke by virtue of being an ancient. This is your reasoning in brief.

Your speculation is void, as are your attempts to pass Vitiate as superior to Luke.

Even Vitiate supporters are saying Luke wins this, even if they say Vitiate makes him work for it. Legend is literally the only one who thinks otherwise LOL like come on man.

Originally posted by Trocity
Even Vitiate supporters are saying Luke wins this, even if they say Vitiate makes him work for it. Legend is literally the only one who thinks otherwise LOL like come on man.

👆

Vitiate is by no means weak, but he's not in Luke Skywalker's league.

Originally posted by Stigma
👆

Vitiate is by no means weak, but he's not in Luke Skywalker's league.

👆

Even Neph agrees.

True that 😄

Originally posted by The_Tempest
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Even Neph agrees.

I said Vitiate would give him a great fight. He's very much in Luke's league.

Granted, Luke's level covers multiple tiers because he's so fvcking inconsistent, but still.

Vitiate cant compare with him lmfao

Originally posted by Stigma
Not in the fight with Vitiate, if that’s what you ask 🙂

You make it sound like as if your opinion is absolute truth.

Nobody knows what would actually happen in this confrontation but Emperor have abilities and power to overwhelm Luke. Not a far-fetched assumption. Continue to read below.

Originally posted by Stigma
Luke does not need to solo a fight to display superior skill/speed/power than Vitiate.

How do you determine his superiority then?

If you assume that Luke is superior to Emperor by virtue of putting up a fight against Abeloth then keep in mind that he is not alone in this, others did too. This kind of logic doesn't fly, Stigma.

Originally posted by Stigma
I see, so you must be really good at keeping the appearances then.

No comments.

Originally posted by Stigma
It was not ad hominem, and I am slightly offended that you should think so. If I was to use one I would say that you’re full of sh*t. But I won’t. biscuits

You are a good-natured person, it seems. Serious.

Originally posted by Stigma
All arguments here are subjective as they are a mixture of opinions and data.

Nicely put.

However, I am good at realizing the significance of Emperor's actions in comparison to most. I also perceive Luke in more realistic light then norm.

Originally posted by Stigma
Don’t hand-wave this point so easily. What it means, and what you either don’t comprehend or don’t want to acknowledge, is that Luke already possesses a tremendous advantage over Vitiate. He is vastly more skilled and efficient duelist. Thus, 50% of what constitutes a fight goes to Luke. 👆

By this logic, many Jedi and Sith possessed tremendous advantage over Emperor. So how did the confrontations turned out? Jedi and Sith ending-up broke and dead, right?

Originally posted by Stigma
The other 50% is force power and here Luke is still ahead of Vitiate.

I don't see how.

Originally posted by Stigma
Force-holding Caedus in a chair against his will is already a more impressive TK feat than disintegrating a droid or snapping a lightsaber out of hand. The black hole feat that you particularly dislike is leaps and bounds ahead of Vitiate’s showings.

Malgus have much more impressive showings then Caedus in use of Force powers. And he is inferior to Emperor. Do the math.

Maul held Sidious in a choke-hold too, willing to agree that Maul is superior Luke? This is your logic.

As for the vong black hole feat, you mistakenly assume that this artificial manifestation is strong like a real thing. Also, Luke is not the only one to pull it off, another Jedi did too. Furthermore, Shimrra doesn't have these feats, didn't stop him from overwhelming Luke unless Jacen interfered. These type of arguments don't fly, Stigma.

Originally posted by Stigma
No, rather he laughs at you as Nyax threw capital ships around, unlike Vitiate.

Nyax didn't threw capital ships around. You are mistaken.

Originally posted by Stigma
But to the point. Luke does have unmatched raw power, for as per GL Luke can become what his father hasn’t. Anakin—the Chosen One- has the potential to be twice as powerful as Palpatine. Hence, in raw power, Luke does too. [SWL] You do the math now [/SWL].

GL can shove his assessment into himself for all I care. I am sticking with official representation of Luke.

Also, Anakin's potential hype have also been revised by Disney. Stick with the latest developments.

Originally posted by Stigma
His best combat feat as I recall.

Emperor defeated 3 Strike Teams of powerful Force-users in total, as far as I remember.

Originally posted by Stigma
Unless he has prep and nexus amp and Luke is near comatose those will not come into play in a combat scenario.

Their is no such thing as prep for Emperor, this stupidity was initially promoted by Drew (several years old statement) and fans (i.e. critics of the character) took it at face value.

Emperor can literally break Luke with just his telepathic abilities. Lord Nyax would have pulled this off as well if Luke had been alone against him, an example that proves that Luke isn't infallible against telepathic powers.

Originally posted by Stigma
Your speculation is void, as are your attempts to pass Vitiate as superior to Luke.

It is not.

I shall explain to you the difference in a different manner now:-

Luke versus Lord Taloon and Gavar Khai = conventional struggles involving lightsaber duels and telekinetic actions, several times.

Emperor versus Lord Taloon and Gavar Khai = Both of the latter ending up telepathically compromised or dead.

Ponder over the difference for a moment. And also try to comprehend how Emperor ruled over millions of Sith Force-users and defeated so many opponents in life.

Originally posted by Drinking It Up
All that Vitiate has going for him is that he isn't Darth Bane.

I've missed stuff like this.

Originally posted by Drinking It Up
All that Vitiate has going for him is that he isn't Darth Bane.

👆

Luke in hiz prime... Man of zteel !

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
- Luke and Krayt managed to defeat Abeloth with joint effort and both were equally impressive in this confrontation.

Luke defeated her alone too.

- Luke failed to defeat Lord Nyax on his own, he had help from other Jedi.

How is that relevant?

- Luke defeated Shimrra with support from Jacen.

Luke defeated Shimra alone after being exhausted from fight with multiple Slayers. How is that relevant?

- Luke's top feats have been matched by others.

True. Caedus and Saba come to mind.

I don't really get the assumption that Luke is infallible in versus scenarios. Noted that he outdueled Sidious once but this is it.

You don't have to. 🙂 But outdueling Sidious is far from "this is it".

I am not sure how so many got the idea that Luke is the most powerful Force-user or is infallible. I assume poor judgment on their part.

Potential inherited from his father, feats, sources and quality of opponents he faced.

My views are more realistic then norm here.

Sure. Lol

Originally posted by Arhael
Luke defeated her alone too.

In a cave setting where he exposed Abeloth's avatar to molten lava, incinerating it in the process.

Though, in another confrontation, Abeloth overwhelmed luke successfully but did not kill him, PIS.

Originally posted by Arhael
How is that relevant?

It is relevant in the context that Luke have limits.

Originally posted by Arhael
Luke defeated Shimra alone after being exhausted from fight with multiple Slayers. How is that relevant?

Should I present details of this encounter? You will be embarrassed.

Originally posted by Arhael
True. Caedus and Saba come to mind.

You forgot about Kyp Durron.

Caedus doesn't have direct showings of Force powers on level of Luke by the way.

Originally posted by Arhael
You don't have to. 🙂 But outdueling Sidious is far from "this is it".

Luke have his moments, but they are not the only ones. Just like any individual, Luke struggled in his challenges and even lost a few times. He is as fallible as others despite his top showings.

Originally posted by Arhael
Potential inherited from his father, feats, sources and quality of opponents he faced.

In Legends, Anakin have highest midichlorian count "on record." The Jedi and Sith weren't even measured in this manner during ancient times.

Even in Canon, Anakin's potential hype have been reduced by Disney.

Originally posted by Arhael
Sure. Lol

Indeed

In a cave setting where he exposed Abeloth's avatar to molten lava, incinerating it in the process.

And? In another case he cut her down with lightsaber. Should we discard it on the basis he had help from lightsaber? He is obviously not as powerful as Abeloth. What matters is that he could defend against her Force powers and even grapple with her despite inferiority. That gives him a lot of credit, when matching him against a less impressive power bully like Vitiate.

Though, in another confrontation, Abeloth overwhelmed luke successfully but did not kill him, PIS.

She was choking him with second body, when he was exhausted from fight with the first. That's about it.

It is relevant in the context that Luke have limits.

No one claimed he doesn't.

Should I present details of this encounter? You will be embarrassed.

By all means go ahead. Luke killed Shimra without any help from twins.

You forgot about Kyp Durron.

I didn't. Pulling dovin basal hole is a mediocre feat by Luke's standards. Luke collapsed only because he was in a very bad shape out of practice, in the same book he got exhausted even after short fight with three Vongs. I the end of NJO in comparison Luke marched through countless Vongs, killed multiple Slayers and defeated Shimra.

Caedus doesn't have direct showings of Force powers on level of Luke by the way.

He does. As well as powers Luke never demonstrated.

Luke have his moments, but they are not the only ones. Just like any individual, Luke struggled in his challenges and even lost a few times. He is as fallible as others despite his top showings.

True. Doesn't prevent him from winning in this thread.

Even in Canon, Anakin's potential hype have been reduced by Disney.

Now that's interesting.

Anakin's potential hype has been revised to...what by Disney?

It remains G canon that he at the least has the highest midichlorian count ever recorded (Due to EP 1 movie) and Sidious, who's in a position to know, thinks Anakin will be more powerful then either himself or Yoda. Yoda comes right back with 'misplaced your faith in your apprentice may be', but Sidious is following the midichlorian count. Yoda's following the reality that Vader's going to get all his limbs chopped off.

Of course, if you fail to take Legends into account, then Luke>Vitiate, because a real character>imaginary character that does not exist.

Indeed, the smallest, weakest youngling in ep 2>character that no longer exists.

Originally posted by Arhael
And? In another case he cut her down with lightsaber. Should we discard it on the basis he had help from lightsaber? He is obviously not as powerful as Abeloth. What matters is that he could defend against her Force powers and even grapple with her despite inferiority. That gives him a lot of credit, when matching him against a less impressive power bully like Vitiate.

Luke's one-time (solo) victory over Abeloth is not by virtue of his own power, rather by virtue of combination of his vast combat experience, good presence of mind, weaponry (i.e. lightsaber), and effective utilization of the advantages offered by the setting. I give credit where due though: Luke fought admirably in this setting.

Force powers? Abeloth commonly used her brute strength and tentacles to overcome opponents in combat situations. She is an entity and wildling, not a well-trained and disciplined Force-user warrior. She have demonstrated impressive Force powers on occasions but made limited use of them in combat situations.

The fact that Abeloth lost several avatars in confrontations despite her great power, is testament to her inadequacy as a tactician and warrior.

--

Less impressive power bully? Emperor is a brilliant tactician and he valued safety over risks; his combat tactics have served him well for centuries. He is lot more tested then norm and proved his mettle.

Originally posted by Arhael
She was choking him with second body, when he was exhausted from fight with the first. That's about it.

Even if this is not explicitly stated, experienced Jedi are known to replenish their energy after exertions when they have time.

Luke was wounded but had time to replenish his energy and stabilize the injury during the gap between his encounters with Abeloth.

Originally posted by Arhael
No one claimed he doesn't.

Versus scenarios imply otherwise.

Originally posted by Arhael
By all means go ahead. Luke killed Shimra without any help from twins.

Sure:

When he came to an instant later, he saw that Luke had obviously intercepted Shimrra's follow-up blow. But now, monstrous in aspect and power, Shimrra hovered over Luke like a rancor. Luke's lightsaber thrummed through the air, but Shimrra refused to be kept at bay. Luke tried to Force-leap out of reach, but the Supreme Overlord had him caged.

The master of defense is one who is never in the place that is attacked, Jacen recalled Vergere saying. Shimrra appeared to have learned the same lesson. Lunging, the thick, three-meter-long amphistaff wound itself around Luke's torso, pinning his right arm and lightsaber hilt to his side, the green blade aimed at the floor. Just in time, Luke managed to get his left hand
gripped on the snake's uppermost coils and the head as it loosed volumes of venom at him. But Luke was rapidly being squeezed to death by the amphistaff.

Feeling his uncle's suffocation in his own crushed chest, Jacen summoned his strength and crawled frantically for his lightsaber. Calling it to his right hand, he sent it hurtling through the air at Shimrra's head. The Supreme Overlord raised his left hand in a parry; then, with Jacen's lightsaber spinning off toward the throne, he reached into the folds of his hide cape and extracted a lightsaber! With a flourish, he activated it. A violet blade shot forth with the familiar snap-hiss. Jacen recognized it immediately. Anakin's lightsaber.

"Weapon of the Solo we killed at Myrkr," Shimrra said, his eyes shifting through colors as the energy shaft thrummed: "Conveyed to Yuuzhan'tar by the traitor Vergere, wielded by the Jeedai Ganner against so many of my warriors, retrieved when he died and brought to me, and now yours to
confront. So that you may know what my warriors experience at Zonama Sekot, forced to fight against other living vessels."

Jacen was too stunned to respond; too disheartened to move. Shimrra waved the blade close to Luke's head. Luke removed his left hand from the amphistaff's throat to grab Shimrra's right wrist. The serpentine weapon immediately stiffened and plunged itself into the left side of Luke's chest.

Luke screamed in pain.

The Supreme Overlord reared back to gloat: "One thrust and the deed is done!"

Then all at once, Anakin's lightsaber flew from Shimrra's grip into Luke's left hand. Through his Vongsense, Jacen could feel Shimrra's astonishment and dismay. In a motion almost too swift for Jacen's eyes to follow, Luke slit the throat of Shimrra's amphistaff. As its coils began to relax, he sliced his own lightsaber he sliced his own lightsaber blade upward,
cutting the amphistaff's body into segments. As a horrified Shimrra leaned forward, as if to vise his huge hands around Luke's neck, Luke crossed the blades and shoved them upward toward Shimrra's neck.

The blades burned clean through. Shimrra's decapitated head dropped to the floor with a loud thud! and his body crumbled. Luke hauled himself out from under the Supreme Overlord's body and collapsed against the wall.

Taken from The Unifying Force.

As you can see, Shimrra would have killed Luke if Jacen had not interfered. With Jacen's interference, Luke acquired two lightsabers and gained advantage.

Originally posted by Arhael
I didn't. Pulling dovin basal hole is a mediocre feat by Luke's standards. Luke collapsed only because he was in a very bad shape out of practice, in the same book he got exhausted even after short fight with three Vongs. I the end of NJO in comparison Luke marched through countless Vongs, killed multiple Slayers and defeated Shimra.

The vong black hole manipulation feat exhausted Luke because it was a tedious task. It exhausted Kyp as well. And these showings aren't mediocre.

Details are here: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=607245&pagenumber=3

Luke performed this feat with full concentration.

Originally posted by Arhael
He does. As well as powers Luke never demonstrated.

Enlighten me.