Originally posted by Vixal1
Agreed, Doom's had A LOT of embarrassing losses. John has had his head shoved down a toilet before but the number of times he's been owned in 300 issues of Hellblazer pales in comparison to Doom's losses.
You realize Doom has been around since the early 60's, while John has only been around since the mid 80's. It's not really a surprise Doom has more low showings.
There is a difference between being overrated and overpowered. Saying he is overrated because he has had some embarrassing losses doesn't hold up because he still has all those feats of..well, being the Doom he is known for. Just assume the low showings were very feeble Doombots.(that is not to be taken seriously)
You also have to take in mind that the more powerful a character is..the more they are going to have to job in some comics. John has less low showings because he was never about raw power anyways. He was never about being a genius, he was about using his wits and knowledge of the magical world. That is why he has to trick powerful beings in order to avoid being killed.
Don't get me wrong I do have a problem with the fact that 95% of the time if you give Doom prep he wins, but that is because he is just too overpowered at times. It's hard to think of legit ways to beat him, and you can only pull the "he lost because he was bored" or "he lost because deep down he wanted to lose" so many times. So they then come up with asinine ways for him to be defeated. I don't think Marvel knows how to handle Doom anymore. Actually, ever since they had him show up and show he was upset at 9/11..is when I first felt that way. In case nobody knows what I mean, Doom in the past has tried to destroy all of NYC, and yet 9/11 bothers him.
Originally posted by SurturI was comparing ratios more so than sheer number of losses, for every so and so wins you have this many losses, that's the only fair way to compare.
You realize Doom has been around since the early 60's, while John has only been around since the mid 80's. It's not really a surprise Doom has more low showings.There is a difference between being overrated and overpowered. Saying he is overrated because he has had some embarrassing losses doesn't hold up because he still has all those feats of..well, being the Doom he is known for. Just assume the low showings were very feeble Doombots.(that is not to be taken seriously)
You also have to take in mind that the more powerful a character is..the more they are going to have to job in some comics. John has less low showings because he was never about raw power anyways. He was never about being a genius, he was about using his wits and knowledge of the magical world. That is why he has to trick powerful beings in order to avoid being killed.
Don't get me wrong I do have a problem with the fact that 95% of the time if you give Doom prep he wins, but that is because he is just too overpowered at times. It's hard to think of legit ways to beat him, and you can only pull the "he lost because he was bored" or "he lost because deep down he wanted to lose" so many times.
As far as Doom being overpowered, people who argue for Doom seem to hang on to a few outliers and high end showings that he had some several decades ago and most of them aren't even familiar with the context ei Doom stealing the Beyonders powers, 90% of people who bring this up at under the impression that Doom simply whipped up a machine and took them.
Doom is overrated, one of the most overrated characters out there.
Originally posted by VastoLord1234
Considering nU John took out the JLD, pulled PS through two points in reality, stormed straight into the HoM after zatanna got it, and also chained (momentarily) the trinity of sin? DCnU john is many things, but brag-full? thats one thing he's not, he's proven what he's capable of.Also regarding PS and the spectre, while its true combined they are creation level, the presence is talking about, what if they fought no hold bars, they would destroy creation, even if you equate half of their powers or half of creation, they'd still be massively multiversal singly.
Where in that post did I say John was bragging? The fact is you posted that as proof of something he has done when in fact he hasn't. The scan showed he "thought" he could, but it is still an unproven fact.
John is a freakin awesome character and one of my favs but Vertigo John really isnt a prepper the way s o me people carry on. Its not like he specifically does prep for certain events. Yes he achieves thinks because of prepared things but this is more due to putting things aside for a rainy day. Banking favors as it were. How many times has john called in a favor at a critical moment to save his hide? Shite loads, that how many. He didnt prep that for that specific event he just used what hed put away that could serve his ends today.
IMO he would do better against Doom in an impromptu encounter because in effect he will pull out something he had put aside as though he had prepped. In a prepped encounter Doom wins
Originally posted by Surtur
You realize Doom has been around since the early 60's, while John has only been around since the mid 80's. It's not really a surprise Doom has more low showings.There is a difference between being overrated and overpowered. Saying he is overrated because he has had some embarrassing losses doesn't hold up because he still has all those feats of..well, being the Doom he is known for. Just assume the low showings were very feeble Doombots.(that is not to be taken seriously)
You also have to take in mind that the more powerful a character is..the more they are going to have to job in some comics. John has less low showings because he was never about raw power anyways. He was never about being a genius, he was about using his wits and knowledge of the magical world. That is why he has to trick powerful beings in order to avoid being killed.
Don't get me wrong I do have a problem with the fact that 95% of the time if you give Doom prep he wins, but that is because he is just too overpowered at times. It's hard to think of legit ways to beat him, and you can only pull the "he lost because he was bored" or "he lost because deep down he wanted to lose" so many times. So they then come up with asinine ways for him to be defeated. I don't think Marvel knows how to handle Doom anymore. Actually, ever since they had him show up and show he was upset at 9/11..is when I first felt that way. In case nobody knows what I mean, Doom in the past has tried to destroy all of NYC, and yet 9/11 bothers him.
That last paragraph (minus the 9/11 bit) reminds me of Thanos and some of the reasons he has been beaten in the past.
Excellent post.
Originally posted by wuleecatIronically Thanos is also overrated, in the sense that people think that he's on par with Odin and Galactus. They hang on to a view outliers and out of context showings just like people who argue for Doom do.
That last paragraph (minus the 9/11 bit) reminds me of Thanos and some of the reasons he has been beaten in the past.Excellent post.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Tbh, he could just straight up punch him.John, especially Vertigo, was laughably inept at times with fisticuffs, considering what an arrogant arse he was, and growing up in a Liverpool council estate.....
Chas, though, would ram that taxi up Doom's arse and punch him out.
Remember the spell that whoever does to John, reverses right back on them. So, John would say, "Stop hitting yourself." 😛
Also, he was nearly paste when Spectre punched him, but easily teleported away.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85Even then, with prep he could cast the blackmare curse. The one in which he transformed into that monster that gave blight a good pounding 😛
Tbh, he could just straight up punch him.John, especially Vertigo, was laughably inept at times with fisticuffs, considering what an arrogant arse he was, and growing up in a Liverpool council estate.....
Chas, though, would ram that taxi up Doom's arse and punch him out.
Or fight Doom in the astral plane, or use the moonblade, or trap him in another dimension, etc.
PD: that'd be unfair, Chas dominates marvel.
Originally posted by ReflassshhProbably the same things you think John could do to put Doom down.
Honestly asking, what can he do to put John down?
Originally posted by Golgo13But Doom could take a punch from himself.
Remember the spell that whoever does to John, reverses right back on them. So, John would say, "Stop hitting yourself." 😛Also, he was nearly paste when Spectre punched him, but easily teleported away.
John has a glass jaw.