Originally posted by SunRazer
The requirements of victory are supposedly that only a combination of a (sufficiently strong) light sider and dark sider can beat Abeloth.
Originally posted by SunRazer
And Nyax's greater power related to him being on a nexus.
Originally posted by SunRazer
In FotJ, perhaps? lol
Originally posted by SunRazer
It was a dark side nexus.
1. It's just implied throughout Apocalypse. But quotes like this place greater emphasis on its plausibility:
"Mortals can't always know the results," Jaina replied. "Not for certain. We can only act according to our true natures, and leave the rest to the Force.""And we just ignore the visions the Force sends us?"
"Of course not," Jaina said. "But we don't take them literally, either. The Force doesn't send comm messages, right?"
Luke half smiled. "I suppose not," he said. "When dreams speak, they do it in symbols."
"Exactly," Jaina said. "So, who's Ben? The ideal Jedi, right?"
"And Vestara is pure Sith," Luke agreed. "It's the Jedi and the Sith who must take the place of the Son and the Daughter...and deal with Abeloth."
And this:
"And the only one who can help you," the stranger said. "With the Ones gone, there is only one way to stop Abeloth...Jedi and Sith together."
Basically, the cycle has always been one light sider and one dark sider beating Abeloth.
2. Right, which became a Dark Side nexus. I'll find you a quote.
Originally posted by SunRazer
1. It's just implied throughout Apocalypse. But quotes like this place greater emphasis on its plausibility:And this:
Basically, the cycle has always been one light sider and one dark sider beating Abeloth.
They don't affirm that combination of practitioners of the Light Side and the Dark Side are required to contend with Abeloth.
Abeloth wanted Ben Skywalker and Vestara Khai to assume roles of Son and Daughter. The Jedi (i.e. Luke Skywalker and Jaina Solo) seem to theorize about this matter.
As for Darth Krayt's remark, it makes sense. Krayt simply informed Luke that both Jedi and Sith shall need to work together to defeat Abeloth, a common foe of both.
Originally posted by SunRazer
2. Right, which became a Dark Side nexus. I'll find you a quote.
1. It was clearly an attempt to simply re-enact the cycle of light and dark defeating Abeloth. As I said, it's implied throughout the entirety of the novel (or when it starts mentioning the Ones, at least), so it's hard to provide a straight quote for that. And Krayt clearly states that without the Ones (Daughter and Son), the only possible way to truly defeat her is via Jedi and Sith.
2. I meant a quote for it becoming a Dark Side nexus.
Originally posted by SunRazer
1. It was clearly an attempt to simply re-enact the cycle of light and dark defeating Abeloth. As I said, it's implied throughout the entirety of the novel (or when it starts mentioning the Ones, at least), so it's hard to provide a straight quote for that. And Krayt clearly states that without the Ones (Daughter and Son), the only possible way to truly defeat her is via Jedi and Sith.
In a versus scenario, we are considering a single battle. Aren't we?
If I have to consider assumptions, then Vitiate can be made extremely resourceful:
1. Voices
Large number of avatars for Vitiate to rely upon, should he loose each.
2. Pawns
Large number of Force-users (practitioners of the Light Side and the Dark Side) for Vitiate as options to possess and use them in the confrontation.
OR
Children of the Emperor.
Originally posted by SunRazer
2. I meant a quote for it becoming a Dark Side nexus.
Vitiate's Voices would be easily beaten by Abeloth, and mentioning the Pawns or Children is pretty stupid because they'd melt in Abeloth's presence (literally, as in Ascension). That, and Vitiate doesn't have time to be diverting his strength directing other minions. And Vitiate losing a single Avatar is a more significant setback for him than it is for Abeloth, as seen when the HoT killed a Voice.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Vitiate's Voices would be easily beaten by Abeloth,
With Grand Master Satele Shan's support, Master Braga assembles a strike team of the strongest and most resolute Jedi in the order. Their goal is to pinpoint the Emperor's hidden fortress, capture the Sith leader alive, and turn him to the light side. The Jedi do not realize that they have underestimated the true extent of the Emperor's power. It is an error that will cost them dearly.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
+
The plan to invade the Emperor's fortress succeeds beyond Master Braga's greatest ambitions. However, the Jedi find more than they bargained for when they finally confront the Sith leader in his lair. The Emperor is more than a man - he is the living embodiment of the dark side. Armed with incalculable powers of corruption, the Emperor easily defeats the Knight, Master Braga, and their fellow Jedi, twisting them all to the dark side.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
In short, Vitiate (Voice) easily defeated a Jedi Strike Team of some of the most powerful Jedi of the Order.
---
The Voice is the mouthpiece through which the Emperor delivers his orders. This possessed being sacrifices all consciousness to become a hollow vessel for the Emperor. Over the centuries, the Emperor has taken many Voices from young children to alien species. When the Voice speaks, it does so with the Emperor's cold, emotionless, and commanding tone. The Voice also wields the Emperor's incredible power and is capable of striking down anyone who displeases him. Those who converse with the Voice are overwhelmed with dread and unshakable obedience. To speak with the Voice is to speak with the Emperor himself.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
Originally posted by SunRazer
and mentioning the Pawns or Children is pretty stupid because they'd melt in Abeloth's presence (literally, as in Ascension).
Originally posted by SunRazer
That, and Vitiate doesn't have time to be diverting his strength directing other minions.
Originally posted by SunRazer
And Vitiate losing a single Avatar is a more significant setback for him than it is for Abeloth, as seen when the HoT killed a Voice.
Vitiate lost much of his power prior to this confrontation because his ultimate ritual was disrupted. Vitiate began to recover but HoT and his allies struck on the right moment and Vitiate lost his Voice along with many Children, further weakening him.
However, even in the weakest moment, Vitiate was able to collapse a portion of the mighty Dark Temple in an attempt to crush HoT beneath the rubble. The Jedi Master somehow escaped.
1. You speak of that as if I'm not already aware of it. None of this implies comparable power to Abeloth, lol.
2. I laughed. Luke and Krayt are now comparable to any of Vitiate's pawns and minions? And this was in Beyond Shadows, which is mental forms only, not to mention it wasn't all of Abeloth (she was possessing other bodies as well).
3. I did, and it's overly hyped. I repeat - against Abeloth, somebody who is far more powerful than anybody else in Vitiate's era or anybody Vitiate has ever faced (or Vitiate himself) - he has no time to be spending his strength on others.
4. I've told you that I played/seen the entire JK storyline, and I'm aware of all this. Abeloth can easily replicate it, as well. All beings, Abeloth included, gradually weaken as each of their bodies die. Vitiate is not exempt from this rule. When Abeloth kills his Voices over and over a sufficient number of times, he will not have the strength to continue fighting - assuming he's still alive, that is.
Originally posted by SunRazer
1. You speak of that as if I'm not already aware of it. None of this implies comparable power to Abeloth, lol.
Originally posted by SunRazer
2. I laughed. Luke and Krayt are now comparable to any of Vitiate's pawns and minions? And this was in Beyond Shadows, which is mental forms only, not to mention it wasn't all of Abeloth (she was possessing other bodies as well).
Children of the Emperor aren't mooks, they are powerful on average. First Son, in particular, is stated to possesses remarkable power and also have remarkable feats:
The Sith Emperor seeks to shape all things to his will. His Children, individuals infused with part of his being, have been scattered throughout the Republic, knowingly–or unknowingly–manipulating events to the Emperor's advantage over the years. Above them all is the First Son of the Emperor, a master strategist placed within the Jedi Council itself. Cloaked in the identity of Master Syo Bakarn, the First Son has been hiding the Children from the Jedi for decades, playing a long game with the Republic. His actions suggest a man possessing remarkable patience, ruthlessness and power.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic
Originally posted by SunRazer
3. I did, and it's overly hyped. I repeat - against Abeloth, somebody who is far more powerful than anybody else in Vitiate's era or anybody Vitiate has ever faced (or Vitiate himself) - he has no time to be spending his strength on others.
This:
The Emperor escaped destruction on Yavin 4, and now his presence has been felt on the planet Ziost, once powerful throne world of the Sith Empire. You are called upon again to face this galactic menace when your allies realize that the entire planet's inhabitants have been mind-controlled. And while the Emperor's ultimate plan is still unknown, you do know he must be stopped.
Taken from http://www.swtor.com/blog/welcome-game-update-3.2-rise-emperor
&
This:
The Sith Emperor is the most powerful Force-user who has ever existed. Unless this implacable enemy can be defeated, the Jedi Order is doomed.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
Vitiate also have best single combat showings in the mythos.
Originally posted by SunRazer
4. I've told you that I played/seen the entire JK storyline, and I'm aware of all this.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Abeloth can easily replicate it, as well. All beings, Abeloth included, gradually weaken as each of their bodies die. Vitiate is not exempt from this rule. When Abeloth kills his Voices over and over a sufficient number of times, he will not have the strength to continue fighting - assuming he's still alive, that is.
1. Apart from using PIS as an argument, Abeloth has been largely weakened/not at full power in FotJ. At least Abeloth has faced people above Vitiate in power, whereas the inverse is not true - Vitiate has never encountered anybody of greater power than him, or anybody on Abeloth's class.
2. Because they're above the mooks that Abeloth destroys in Ascension? And because they're above the pawns and Children you mentioned.
And I know how powerful the Children are, and they'd get annihilated by Abeloth. Or, worse, they'd get affected by her Force Psychosis and she controls them, rather than Vitiate.
3. I give him credit for being above Revan and every other Force user before him, bar the Ones and Bedlam Spirits. That's as much credit as he needs - the rest are just additional showings, and they're beneath him.
No, he doesn't. You better admit you're very clearly biased towards Vitiate. And it's becoming apparent because you've just abandoned Nihilus to fanwank your favorite character.
4. I didn't, I was claiming that Abeloth could replicate a similar circumstance. That's like me asking you why you're misinterpreting Abeloth's feats and failures.
5. She's already affected the visuals of ships on a solar system-wide basis, so it's within her scope of power. She also melted a city just by being angry in Ascension.
And as I said, Vitiate has to use some of his power for those hundreds of minions. not that they could ever actually do anything to Abeloth, or come close. And she can bend fauna/flora of a planet to her will, and use them against Vitiate's minions - assuming, of course, that her Force Psychosis doesn't assume control of them first. Given that people who were aware of Force Psychosis were still affected, and because Abeloth is more powerful than Vitiate, I think that's hardly an implausible notion.
Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Apart from using PIS as an argument, Abeloth has been largely weakened/not at full power in FotJ. At least Abeloth has faced people above Vitiate in power, whereas the inverse is not true - Vitiate has never encountered anybody of greater power than him, or anybody on Abeloth's class.
You have yet to substantiate your (ridiculous) claim that Abeloth can melt others with her mere presence. Provide evidence or acknowledge your claim as a lie. Their is no escaping from this.
Abeloth have faced 'people' above Vitiate in power? You mean beings?
Well, according to SWTOR sources, Vitiate is the most powerful Force-user to have ever existed.
Originally posted by SunRazer
2. Because they're above the mooks that Abeloth destroys in Ascension? And because they're above the pawns and Children you mentioned.
Originally posted by SunRazer
And I know how powerful the Children are, and they'd get annihilated by Abeloth.
Originally posted by SunRazer
3. I give him credit for being above Revan and every other Force user before him, bar the Ones and Bedlam Spirits. That's as much credit as he needs - the rest are just additional showings, and they're beneath him.
Originally posted by SunRazer
No, he doesn't. You better admit you're very clearly biased towards Vitiate. And it's becoming apparent because you've just abandoned Nihilus to fanwank your favorite character.
Originally posted by SunRazer
4. I didn't, I was claiming that Abeloth could replicate a similar circumstance. That's like me asking you why you're misinterpreting Abeloth's feats and failures.
Reminder: "And Vitiate losing a single Avatar is a more significant setback for him than it is for Abeloth, as seen when the HoT killed a Voice."
And yet:
Over the centuries, the Emperor has taken many Voices from young children to alien species.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
Vitiate have no trouble switching between hosts just like Abeloth. This is apparent from Vitiate's actions on Ziost. Vitiate lost many hosts to enemy fire on Ziost, and this didn't dampen his power or capabilities.
Originally posted by SunRazer
5. She's already affected the visuals of ships on a solar system-wide basis, so it's within her scope of power. She also melted a city just by being angry in Ascension.
That city contained people of unknown talents and strengths. We know nothing about them.
Also, Vitiate soloed the world of Ziost. He can solo worlds, he is this damn powerful.
Originally posted by SunRazer
And as I said, Vitiate has to use some of his power for those hundreds of minions. not that they could ever actually do anything to Abeloth, or come close.
Speaking through those he's possessed, he controls powerful pawns like Master Surro, the leader of a team of elite militarized Jedi known as the Sixth Line.
Taken from http://www.swtor.com/gameupdates/rise-of-the-emperor
Abeloth's chances in a confrontation would depend upon how strong the opposition is. And she cannot defeat thousands of powerful Force-users in single combat.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Both Darths Vitiate and Nihilus have superior feats then Luke Skywalker.
Nonsense.