Originally posted by Nephthys
This was before Zannah's peak and doesn't represent her abilities as a full Sith Lord. Also no, Surik isn't much more skilled than Sarro. Or more skilled at all. The dude elevated his fighting skills to the highest and purest levels and was physically larger than even Bane and extremely fast and graceful to boot.And Zannah's Soresu is almost infallible as stated multiple times in the text. How is Surik gonna get through that, hmm? Paint me a picture. 😉
Malachor would be effecting everyone she fought as well don't forget. Sith and Storm Beasts aren't immune to gravity or Malachor's particular hazards. This is a good feat though. But ultimately nothing comparable to matching Bane blow for blow and him failing to get through her defenses without trickery. Plus this is Meetra Surik, and in her novel appearance she was decidedly mediocre and well below beings on Bane and Zannah's levels.
Lol. She was on there to like, an hour. Tops. 😆
Not really. The Exile had no time restraints on her in the assault on the Trayas Academy. So there's no reason she'd have had to be constantly fighting and couldn't rest the whole time.
And what practical use is it against an opponent who sets up an impassable saber wall? "My Surik Senses are tingling! She's going to..... keep spinning!"
Matching Bane in combat is better than all of that, lol. And eff off, where are you getting a hundred Sith from?
Bane is, and since even he lacked the offensive capabilities of getting through Zannah's defense (and he had an extremely offensive combat style), then Surik has next to no chance. And this is on neutral ground, so there's no environmental factor's for her to take advantage of and even if there were she lacks the ability to capitalise upon them and injure Zannah sufficiently to win.
Sarro Xaj was a technical master but technical skill is not what makes a true master in saber combat.
Soresu is repeatedly referred to as exactly that but it doesn't hold up demonstratively.
The Storm Beasts evolved to live in this environment, they thrived there. Also the Sith inside the Trayus Academy were sheltered from the gravity effects, they did however have an enormous amplification from the environment itself. It is one of the best combat feats in the lore. Bane is a master duelist certainly, so is Darth Traya and Surik defeated her specifically due to skill, not Force power. Force power is irrelevant in this contest as it is a dueling contest only.
Surik had to utilize T3-M4 to hack and decipher the contents of the computers there and it was stated to take a considerable amount of time. I may be misremembering the exact amount of time she was there however and be mixing it up with T3's previous stay.
An Academy with Sith in every room and a prior warning that she was attacking. Traya specfically states she was to be given no quarter and that the Sith show her full respect upon arrival. Your logic isn't sound, infact it sounds more like PIS.
Lightsaber combat is an extremely complex art and precognition would come in exceptional handy regardless of circumstance. Claiming otherwise is fallacious dismissal.
No it isn't, Bane isn't the Darth Vader you are making him out to be, his showings when lacking his plot armor are not very inspiring. Oh and there were easily a hundred Sith in the Academy at that time.
Darth Bane has repeatedly gained an advantage in combat over her and both Bane and Zannah realised how asinine it was when she tried to end him with her lightsaber. She is a sorceress first, second and third then comes in her combat skills.
Darth Traya and Master Atris are both master duelists with exveptional knowledge and experience. The fact she defeated both of them through lightsaber skill despite the excessive odds stacked against her is incredibly impressive.
Originally posted by Nephthys
So is Zannah. Her defense is such that Bane, one of the best offensive forces in the mythos, couldn't get through and it was many times described as nigh-impenetrable.
But she knew she wouldn't survive another clash of lightsabers.
Taken from Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil
Bane injured Zannah during the martial phase of their second confrontation and the latter realized that she cannot contend with Bane in this manner for long. Also, keep in mind that Bane was not in his top shape during this time.
In addition:
Zannah had fought him once before, back when he was still encased in his orbalisk armor. She remembered it had been like battling a force of nature: the chitinous parasites covering his entire body had been impervious to lightsaber attacks, allowing him to attack with pure animal rage.
She had survived that encounter only by convincing Bane she hadn't betrayed him, and in the end he had let her live.
Taken from Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil
Bane and Zannah had fought earlier when the former was at his prime but Bane spared Zannah's life.
---
I am not trying to assert that Zannah is bad in martial aspects of combat, she is certainly good.
However, Surik have more impressive resume in these matters.
Well, i just wanna address a few things, here.
Meetra is an exceptional swordsmen
Based on? most people here are basing under the assumptions that Meetra took it upon herself to confront and duel every sith assassin, apprentice and Lord within the academy. The terms on which she fought these powerful forces is unknown to us. she could have used her force powers not just dueled the vast majority.
Sion? what dueling feats does he have? even in cut-content he doesn't fight anyone other than Meetra and Atton. He killed Lonna Vash yes, but even she notes he had to ambush her, and because he was on Korriban and of course his immortality it would give him a great edge over the Master.
Atris? Atris is a master of Juyo, certainly. she's got some skill, but she is by no means a Darth Bane or a Set Harth. Not to mention that Atris did fight Brianna before she fought the Exile twice.
and lastly, Kreia. Look i love Kreia, she's my favorite sw character of all time. But Kreia is by no means a godlike duelist, why? She's a consular first of all, secondly in every cut-scene she's shown using the force and even when the Exile asks her about the lightsaber, Kreia shows a certain disdain for it. She's regarded as a master of lightsaber combat and has basic knowledge of the Seven forms and the force forms. However if we're talking about Technical mastery, Kreia's one of the biggest examples in here.
On the other hand, you've got Zannah. a confirmed Master of Soresu, who has defeated and withstood the ruthless savagery of a Man who mastered Juyo, Djem So and Soresu, the same man who defeated a person who has a superior accolade to "Master of lightsaber combat." Kas'im. If you're wanking Kreia's quote then what of Kas'im's quote? The very man who bane defeated before his prime.
Zannah played with Set Harth, a fully trained Jedi Knight who had defeated a powerful sith lord before he had even fought Zannah(As stated in the Dark-Side Sourcebook) Her being unable to break through Bane's defense was due to Bane's own cunning, not due to a lack of skill on Zannah's part. He had tricked her into unleashing a fully offensive strategy which she was not used to. She's capable in offensive maneuvers, but not in using it as an overall strategy.
The Exile is impressive no doubt, but you're all mostly operating under the assumption that Meetra fought everyone she met in lightsaber combat when she also has her force powers. You're all thinking that she's a Guardian and Weapons-Master based on assumptions and generalizations.
Meetra is a practitioner of Shii-Cho, Makashi and Soresu(Via Kotor 2 which grants the "player" these forms but imo it's mostly game mechanics) perhaps Possibly Juyo based on what I've gathered. the forms that she learned were praised by two of the three masters, with one of them—A weapons'master— stating she mastered the form. this is all Meetra has, all that is actually known to us. and even then i'm throwing her bone with Juyo which is based solely on my speculation(which is supported) All of these forms—with the exception of Makashi. are already known to Zannah. Shii-Cho the most basic of forms, Soresu she mastered and she warded off a much,much more powerful Juyo practitioner, who again. had mastered Soresu and Djem So as well.
And lastly. what puts Meetra on Bane's speed or strength? does Sion have the same speed? Atris? Kreia? Visas? I'd like to hear them if there's anything even remotely putting them on Bane's level in terms of Physical strength, speed and force power.
Overall, Meetra's impressive, no doubt about it. But Zannah's even more so. She fought several warriors with many accolades to their names as well feats, her force power is stated to match Bane's own. She has greater speed showings and has held her own against and defeated Bane, a man with tremendous strength and speed. Zannah, in my opinion. Wins.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I think that you are remembering some stuff wrong.But she knew she wouldn't survive another clash of lightsabers.
Taken from [B]Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil
Bane injured Zannah during the martial phase of their second confrontation and the latter realized that she cannot contend with Bane in this manner for long. Also, keep in mind that Bane was not in his top shape during this time.[/b]
Bane had to use the environment to injure her in that manner, pushing her back until she tripped on a grave moments from Force-pwning him. Before that point he was unable to penetrate her defenses in a conventional manner.
And Bane was only the merest fraction slower than he'd once been and a tiny sliver less physically strong.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
In addition:Zannah had fought him once before, back when he was still encased in his orbalisk armor. She remembered it had been like battling a force of nature: the chitinous parasites covering his entire body had been impervious to lightsaber attacks, allowing him to attack with pure animal rage.
She had survived that encounter only by convincing Bane she hadn't betrayed him, and in the end he had let her live.
Taken from [B]Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil
Bane and Zannah had fought earlier when the former was at his prime but Bane spared Zannah's life.[/b]
That was when Zannah was still an apprentice and 10 years before her prime. It's like basing Kotor 2 Meetra on her abilities in the Mandalorian Wars. Also even though Zannah was being overwhelmed, it's still incredibly impressive that she managed to survive as long as she did against the sheer level of speed and power Bane was using against her. Deflecting what appeared to her to be a dozen lightsabers at once is impressive as hell.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
---I am not trying to assert that Zannah is bad in martial aspects of combat, she is certainly good.
However, Surik have more impressive resume in these matters.
Meetra got chumped by Nyriss. Lets not act as if her resume is flawless here. 😉
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Source for Kreia being referred as a master duelist? (I say this knowing I am right, I just want to publicly prove a point.)
All I recall is Atris being called one, and then sources state Meetra beat her via pure skill with a blade. Give me a scan please.
I think most people make a big deal out of defeating Traya through skill mostly because Surik is confirmed inferior in raw power
Granted, when you get down to it, every jedi/sith character eventually gets written like a moron regardless of era when they forget they have shit like telekinesis when it would be ****ing useful to use (No Obi-Wan, please, stand there and watch that Mandalorian woman commit suicide. Free fall, that hasn't even started yet, is entirely insurmountable, way too powerful for your combat proven telekinesis to laugh at...).
However, I'd figure that's a non issue in a fight where part of the battle has the character with enough finesse to simultaneously control 3 lightsabers at once :hmm
What do I know though?
Originally posted by AncientPower
Sarro Xaj was a technical master but technical skill is not what makes a true master in saber combat.
Sarro also has plenty of combat experience from the war, is physically honed to perfection and shows no lack of other aspects of combat ability. I don't see why we should poo poo him when the text fellates the hell out of his dueling skills. What does Meetra have that he lacks? And why would that give her an edge over a far greater version of Zannah?
Originally posted by AncientPower
Soresu is repeatedly referred to as exactly that but it doesn't hold up demonstratively.
Whereas Zannah's basically does and how her style functions leaves little room for Surik to use her incredible skills to get through. Surik can't even match Sarro's display, she's not strong or quick enough for that. So what's her big play to penetrate the shield?
Originally posted by AncientPower
The Storm Beasts evolved to live in this environment, they thrived there. Also the Sith inside the Trayus Academy were sheltered from the gravity effects, they did however have an enormous amplification from the environment itself. It is one of the best combat feats in the lore. Bane is a master duelist certainly, so is Darth Traya and Surik defeated her specifically due to skill, not Force power. Force power is irrelevant in this contest as it is a dueling contest only.
Wait, why are they sheltered from the gravity effects? I don't recall the academy having an anti-gravity force field or something set up. And if that's true then Surik would be free of that restriction while fighting as well. Plus I question how much benefit the assassins would get from a nexus considering their power mostly comes from Meetra, not themselves. And the Storm Beats evolved to live in intense gravity and being on top of a force wound? Ok.
Traya doesn't remotely compare to Bane as a duelist. She's a one armed old woman with no saber feats. Also force power plays a big part even in lightsaber dueling.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Surik had to utilize T3-M4 to hack and decipher the contents of the computers there and it was stated to take a considerable amount of time. I may be misremembering the exact amount of time she was there however and be mixing it up with T3's previous stay.
Surik has T3 decipher the contents back on her ship. The whole trip to Nathema is them running into a building, downloading the shit and legging it back to their ship. Selenial was wrong about the length of her stay by a lot.
Originally posted by AncientPower
An Academy with Sith in every room and a prior warning that she was attacking. Traya specfically states she was to be given no quarter and that the Sith show her full respect upon arrival. Your logic isn't sound, infact it sounds more like PIS.
That doesn't mean she couldn't rest before pushing further into the academy. As you say they were all in separate rooms and separated by hallways and shit. Not to mention that she'd be absorbing power from them as she went, which could replenish her stamina.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Lightsaber combat is an extremely complex art and precognition would come in exceptional handy regardless of circumstance. Claiming otherwise is fallacious dismissal.
Meaningless statements. You've offered no practical benefit for Surik.
Originally posted by AncientPower
No it isn't, Bane isn't the Darth Vader you are making him out to be, his showings when lacking his plot armor are not very inspiring. Oh and there were easily a hundred Sith in the Academy at that time.
In lightsaber combat Bane is much better than Vader.
Also prove it.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Darth Bane has repeatedly gained an advantage in combat over her and both Bane and Zannah realised how asinine it was when she tried to end him with her lightsaber. She is a sorceress first, second and third then comes in her combat skills.
Yet in their final duel Zannah was able to intercept Bane's strikes easily and he wasn't able to conventionally get through her shield wall. Also remember than Bane was the one to come up with Zannah's lightsaber style and her tactics, so it's no surprise that given 20 years of time he'd be able to think of a way around her wall, even if he had to rely on indirect methods to do so.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Darth Traya and Master Atris are both master duelists with exveptional knowledge and experience. The fact she defeated both of them through lightsaber skill despite the excessive odds stacked against her is incredibly impressive.
What odds were stacked against her when she dueled Atris? If anything Atris should have been winded from fighting Brianna. And Traya isn't a notable duelist. Not even in the same country as Bane. Also being a master duelist is incredibly generic. I'd expect basically every non-consular Jedi Master to have achieved that level of skill. It's meaningless.
Not going to bother getting In to this, given all the Bane hate recently it's impossible to have a sane debate with half the people I generally would like to because none of you would ever concede.
Having thrown that out there, Neph, I believe AP was referring to the fact that Atris had her own dark side nexus and a multitude of Dark Side Holocrons to draw off.
And I don't believe anyone is saying Traya is on Bane's level, Traya is a consular and focuses on the force, is confirmed more powerful and was on the strongest Dark Side Nexus bar the font of power, the fact Surik had the stamina to deal with the entire fortress that (thanks to the Prima game guide) we know was filled with a legion of the most elite assassins. On a dark Nexus, sacrificing her energy by saving her friends, etc. the odds were simply stacked against Surik astronomically but she came out on top, it's impressive.
Yeh, I discovered that once I finally saw the quote. That plot point was known to me, I used to do digging extracting the alternate ending files for lawlz back in the day (Like Kreia surviving etc.)
That quote alone however did not make her a master, she has other showings. She's at least not a chump, I believe is how id describe her, don't really know what else I'd say.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Sarro also has plenty of combat experience from the war, is physically honed to perfection and shows no lack of other aspects of combat ability. I don't see why we should poo poo him when the text fellates the hell out of his dueling skills. What does Meetra have that he lacks? And why would that give her an edge over a far greater version of Zannah?Whereas Zannah's basically does and how her style functions leaves little room for Surik to use her incredible skills to get through. Surik can't even match Sarro's display, she's not strong or quick enough for that. So what's her big play to penetrate the shield?
Wait, why are they sheltered from the gravity effects? I don't recall the academy having an anti-gravity force field or something set up. And if that's true then Surik would be free of that restriction while fighting as well. Plus I question how much benefit the assassins would get from a nexus considering their power mostly comes from Meetra, not themselves. And the Storm Beats evolved to live in intense gravity and being on top of a force wound? Ok.
Traya doesn't remotely compare to Bane as a duelist. She's a one armed old woman with no saber feats. Also force power plays a big part even in lightsaber dueling.
Surik has T3 decipher the contents back on her ship. The whole trip to Nathema is them running into a building, downloading the shit and legging it back to their ship. Selenial was wrong about the length of her stay by a lot.
That doesn't mean she couldn't rest before pushing further into the academy. As you say they were all in separate rooms and separated by hallways and shit. Not to mention that she'd be absorbing power from them as she went, which could replenish her stamina.
Meaningless statements. You've offered no practical benefit for Surik.
In lightsaber combat Bane is much better than Vader.
Also prove it.
Yet in their final duel Zannah was able to intercept Bane's strikes easily and he wasn't able to conventionally get through her shield wall. Also remember than Bane was the one to come up with Zannah's lightsaber style and her tactics, so it's no surprise that given 20 years of time he'd be able to think of a way around her wall, even if he had to rely on indirect methods to do so.
What odds were stacked against her when she dueled Atris? If anything Atris should have been winded from fighting Brianna. And Traya isn't a notable duelist. Not even in the same country as Bane. Also being a master duelist is incredibly generic. I'd expect basically every non-consular Jedi Master to have achieved that level of skill. It's meaningless.
Sarro Xaj has no feats off of Battle Meditation that compares to Meetra Surik's feats. Meetra Surik took on Darth Sion in the second most powerful nexus in the galaxy and dominated him utterly over four engagements, he was repeatedly replenishing his strength whilst she was weak and getting more tired.
Meetra Surik took on Atris a master of lightsaber combat with full mastery over Juyo and defeated her in lightsaber combat, despite Atris' holocron amplification and FLS attacks.This implies great agility and speed on Surik's part.
Meetra Surik with barely any re-training took down the five Handmaidens simultaneously and they marvelled at her combat prowess. After training with the Exile, Brianna accomplishes the same feat in seconds.
Meetra Surik took internal amplifications such as Force Valor to it's highest possible degree so she very likely is faster than Sarro Xaj.
Darth Traya is incredibly quick and could dodge point-blank lightsaber strikes with ease. Meetra Surik defeated her.
Vias Marr, the shadow hand of Darth Nihilus and top assassin could not defeat Surik despite Surik not having a lightsaber and this happened repeatedly.
Surik is quite evidently a Jedi Guardian as displayed in the manner of her victories, her blade's color and perhaps most important is the fact she was an apprentice of Kavar before the war and followed his example as stated in the Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide. If the Exile was not a Guardian then Kavar states that he wanted to take you as his apprentice and train you as a Guardian because you were so skilled.
Later in the game Kavar himself teaches you a form and says you are already mastering it, this is the same Master Kavar that was famous across the galaxy, particularly among the Mandalorians for his martial prowess and blade mastery. One must wonder how skilled Kavar was considering that Atris, the historian, was a master of lightsaber combat herself.
Thus as the evidence suggests she has her own mastery over all lightsaber forms as the Jedi Council masters have stated if Guardian is chosen.
The Trayus Academy is stated to be a refuge from Malachor V's greatest dangers I believe in the Prima Guide.
The Sith Assasins were accompanied by many Sith Marauders, Sith Lords, Sith Masters and Elite Sith Troopers. Legions of elite Sith as the Prima Guide dictates.
Darth Traya had full knowledge of the Lightsaber forms, given that her being Arren Kae is blatantly obvious then she was clearly a great warrior with immense skill throughout the Mando War. She has clear martial prowess and considering the Sourcebooks state kinetic lightsaber combat requires a master of saber combat and mastery of telekinesis to implement then her ability is undouted.
What is further impressive is that Traya simply states the Jedi Exile has as much knowledge and skill of combat as she does once training with Visas Marr ends.
Precognition is obviously helpful, the only meaningless statements here are you asinine dismissals of the entire technique simply to suit your argument.
Darth Bane doesn't come close to Darth Vader as a duelist, whether based on hype or accomplishments.
The official Prima Guide states you have to fight through a legion of elite Sith before reaching Darth Sion.
As proven earlier Zannah attempting to kill Bane, even once he had no weapon or his full strength was an imbecilic strategy on her part.
Atris had Sith Holocrons to draw strength from and was utilising both Force Lightning Storm attacks and Drain Life throughout the combat, but as the Campaign Guide states, Atris' pride was no match for the Exile's lightsaber prowess.
What you have failed to prove is how Zannah even kills Meetra Surik, her offensive capabilities are severely lacking by comparison and the Exile has vastly superior feats of stamina and endurance and the precognitive ability to see any offence coming and capitalise on her lightsaber's weakness.
Meetra Surik has demonstrated the experience and reaction timing that allowed her to analyse her opponents and their weaknesses in half a second before killing them all seconds later. A feat that impressed Scourge greatly. That elongated hilt, stated to be even longer than the norm for saberstaffs is a huge weak point in combat. Capitalise on that and half of Zannah's defensive capability is shot.
The entire argument for Meetra's feats outside of "Revan" is based on a game. Which, if we take as unfiltered cannon, would tell us that Meetra had about 15 different light saber combinations and no more etc. Books > games by a mile for cannon. Its the same as history, the information is only as good as the source.