Originally posted by ILS
So has Vos, lol
His two strongest foes, (1) badly outmatched him until he was boosted by two masters, and (2) was a hard fight after he had more training and had leveled up since the Kolar fight.
Sazen's fought Nihl, Talon, Stryfe, beat up Cade in HtH....
Nihl or Talon'd beat Kolar, I feel pretty confident in saying. Agen doesn't have all that many feats.
Anyway I take it you're referring to Volfe Karkko and Bulq. Not much to say really. Karkko is a very powerful Force User, and him throwing Vos around with TK and lightning is a great feat for him. Not sure if Sazen would have done all that well in that scenario either. As for Bulq, Vos was incredibly conflicted during the Bulq fight which usually leads to a drop in performance for him, but even then he contended with Bulq pretty well when Bulq wasn't attacking him with TK. Also, Vos hadn't improved by very much at all after the fight with Kolar. The increase was slight, really. He has good dueling showings prior to his fight with Kolar as well.
As for the feats you referenced for Sazen, you haven't provided nearly enough context on any of them for me to really care about your point, if it was indeed meant to be an argument.
Originally posted by ILS
Instead of editing in scans (which is what I presume the bracketed numbers are for)
No, they're enumerating arguments.
I'll throw in an image, though. That's the Sith Lord in charge of the destruction of Dac, and normally assigned to the fleet in charge of hunting down the Alliance Fleet. He's a high ranking, powerful and skilled sith.
And lol @ Nihl or Talon beating Kolar.
Better force feats, been shown to fight far more often, more saber feats... I'll revisit this later.
Kolar has barely done anything, you realize.
Sazen's killed a powerful Sith, Azard, who's in turn shown significant combat and force skills, force-shielding against large explosions, dueling Tries Sinde to a standstill (Tries has engaged in sparing with Emperor Fel, was once slated to be leader of the Imperial Knights were it not for his attitude, etc.. In short, Azard has proven himself against someone who in turn has proven himself against known foes). Sazen's killed plenty of rank-and-file sith who attacked him in groups. Both Nihl and Talon have significant feats, and are difficult fights for Cade. Yadda yadda.
Kolar beat Vos, who at the time was about as strong as K'Kruhk judging by the Vos vs K'Kruhk fight, and then was stomped by Sidious.
As for the feats you referenced for Sazen, you haven't provided nearly enough context on any of them for me to really care about your point, if it was indeed meant to be an argument.
Are you unaware of much legacy stuff? That could explain it. If you're not, then you probably shouldn't simply assume someone is stronger or laugh when it's suggested other characters are superior.
I mean, Talon's all over Kolar in force power, no question, with a feet in the dozens to hundreds of tons with her TK, using lightning and tk in combination with her physical fighting, etc., plus dueling wise she's both curbstomped masters herself, and is regularly a tricky fight for Cade in sabers. Nihl, well, he has fewer feats, but he is considered even stronger than Talon and has better saber skills, and a zap of his lightning was enough to take down Jedi Grandmaster Kol Skywalker. Notably, they're both also in Krayt's inner circle, and have the job of hunting down and killing or capturing foes like, well, Kolar's the type of target they'd be sent against, and they do have the feats to back it up.
Discounting Legacy used to be pretty common around here, but as more people got knowledgeable about them, that significantly dropped.
If I was lazy about posting feats, it's that I'm used to people being used to the more extensive posting that's been done. There's probably some respect threads around others can point you to...
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Quinlan proved himself to be stronger than either Ayala or Tholme during the battle with the Morgukai;
Sure, but neither of them are Sazen strong.
Also? That was well after the Kolar fight, I think something like a year later. Quinlan fairly explicitly leveled up as things went on.
dominating him in the manner than he did skyrockets Kolar far and beyond what Sazen has shown us.
Not really, Sazen does match up with some very high level duelists on a regular basis, and I do point out the increase in skill.
Heck, Vos even was more interested in escaping than anything else.
Kolar does have a good feat there, but it is *a* feat, against a foe who changes over time, and where circumstances play a role.
I fail to see how Ayala defeating Aurra Sing is somehow inferior to besting a third-class Sith that wasn't even paying attention to Sazen.
And try to stop pulling stuff out of your ass, tbh. The fight with the Morgukai was a ways before his fight with Kolar.
I also see a pattern in the claims of vast improvement for Quinlan; only seems to come from the people who haven't read a single one of his comics.
I'll throw in an image, though. That's the Sith Lord in charge of the destruction of Dac, and normally assigned to the fleet in charge of hunting down the Alliance Fleet. He's a high ranking, powerful and skilled sith.A featless Sith, you mean?
Better force feats, been shown to fight far more often, more saber feats... I'll revisit this later.TK only matters if you incorporate it enough to prevent being steamrolled in a duel. Quantity of showings has no bearing on their quality.
Kolar has barely done anything, you realize.Not seeing how the number of his showings do anything to diminish their quality. Mind explaining how that works?
Sazen's killed a powerful Sith, Azard, who's in turn shown significant combat and force skills, force-shielding against large explosions, dueling Tries Sinde to a standstill (Tries has engaged in sparing with Emperor Fel, was once slated to be leader of the Imperial Knights were it not for his attitude, etc.. In short, Azard has proven himself against someone who in turn has proven himself against known foes).So let me get this straight.
Your argument for Sazen being better than Kolar (someone who has steamrolled Quinlan Vos), is because Sazen beat Azard, who beat someone who sparred someone who was the head of the Imperial Knights?
Vos has fought off handfuls of pre-TCW Nightsisters on-Dathomir. He casually bested Kadrien Sey and Tol Skorr on a potent dark side nexus. While extremely injured, he came close to killing the two Morgukai, one of which routinely gives Aayla Secura a close fight (and Aayla Secura defeated Aurra Sing, a character with a plethora of showings and accolades such as contending with Jinn/Kenobi and being noted as being "one of the deadliest beings in the galaxy" from a martial standpoint).
Vos has beaten potent groups of amped fodder, and nearly took out two combatants (while heavily injured), who individually are a hard fight for a being, who has beaten beings who have their own extensive track record of dueling ability.
And Kolar absolutely steamrolled Vos in two moves.
Vos alone has better showings than Sazen, never mind the guy who wrecked him.
Sazen's killed plenty of rank-and-file sith who attacked him in groups. Both Nihl and Talon have significant feats, and are difficult fights for Cade. Yadda yadda.Beating featless Sith is okay but not overwhelming. Talon has been steamrolled by an in-training Cade, with Nihl being a decent fight for him but still inferior. Not sure how this helps build the case for either of them beating Kolar.
Kolar beat Vos, who at the time was about as strong as K'Kruhk judging by the Vos vs K'Kruhk fight, and then was stomped by Sidious.Your summary of each character is woeful.
Are you unaware of much legacy stuff? That could explain it. If you're not, then you probably shouldn't simply assume someone is stronger or laugh when it's suggested other characters are superior.I'm aware of the character's general placement in the skill hierarchy and the nature of their feats through debating, just haven't read the comics.
I mean, Talon's all over Kolar in force power, no question, with a feet in the dozens to hundreds of tons with her TK, using lightning and tk in combination with her physical fighting, etc., plus dueling wise she's both curbstomped masters herself, and is regularly a tricky fight for Cade in sabers.She can be all over Kolar in Force power all she wants, I'm just not seeing why she can prevent herself from being steamrolled in sabers. Cade takes her out pretty decisively in most of their fights.
Nihl, well, he has fewer feats, but he is considered even stronger than Talon and has better saber skills, and a zap of his lightning was enough to take down Jedi Grandmaster Kol Skywalker. Notably, they're both also in Krayt's inner circle, and have the job of hunting down and killing or capturing foes like, well, Kolar's the type of target they'd be sent against, and they do have the feats to back it up.Him being better than Talon is a start but you haven't got out of your way to explain why that allows him to be better than Kolar in a duel. Your best argument would be Force power, but dueling is unfortunately just the more important facet of combat more often than not.