Wolfe Sazen vs Agen Kolar

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I fail to see how Ayala defeating Aurra Sing is somehow inferior to besting a third-class Sith that wasn't even paying attention to Sazen.

Azard's no-where near third class.

And try to stop pulling stuff out of your ass, tbh. The fight with the Morgukai was a ways before his fight with Kolar.

Wait, do you mean the Siege of Saleucami or one of the other times he fought them? Because the Siege of Saleucami was waaay later.

If you mean the first time... that was 7 years before the Kolar fight! Aayla was a Knight or... was she even a padawan back then...? oh yea, that was the incident that got her knighted, and way before when she took on Aurra, which was late Clone Wars.

Peak Aayla, when she fought Aurra, would be a better fight for Kolar than the Vos who faced him then was. When you jump up and down the timeline you gotta take progression into place, with Aurra you're jumping around from padawan to master.

(Aurra, I'll remind you, was quite dangerous to Qui-Gon Jinn in a fight! Padawan Aayla would've been an easy kill to her)

I also see a pattern in the claims of vast improvement for Quinlan; only seems to come from the people who haven't read a single one of his comics.

Nope, own almost all of them (I lack the Dathomir one since it wasn't in the original collections) and have since before I came to this board 🙂 Heck, one of the reasons I picked up Legacy in the first place is it had the same writer as the Quinlan stuff.

The end of the Siege of Saleucami is when Quinlan came back to the light, in 19BBY.

When he fought Kolar was in 21BBY.

In between, he had training from Dooku. Do-oku. Dooo-ku. Maybe you've heard of him? I believe even commented on Vos's progress a time or two.

That is a rather significant thing to have, and a pretty significant amount of experience.

Quinlan had a character arc of growth, including growth of skill, during his story. Early on, he got beat up by Kolar, but at the end, he beat someone stronger than Kolar.

In short, final Quinlan >> early war Quinlan. Kolar > early war Quinlan, but beating early war Quinlan doesn't show him to be an unstoppable badass. He's below, say, Kit Fisto.

lol @ your lack of proof for Quinlan improving so substantially. Literally all we have is Dooku saying "better" after sparring Vos.

Originally posted by Q99
Azard's no-where near third class.

Krayt/Wyyrlok-->Hands/Krayt's Circle-->Guys who work under the Hands, like Azard.

Wait, do you mean the Siege of Saleucami or one of the other times he fought them? Because the Siege of Saleucami was waaay later.

Long before.

Peak Aayla, when she fought Aurra, would be a better fight for Kolar than the Vos who faced him then was.

Prove it, tbh.

And even then, it doesn't account for Tholme, who is also a capable Jedi Master.

Nope, own almost all of them.

I'm shocked. The fact that you've read the material makes this more astounding, tbh.

In between, he had training from Dooku. Do-oku. Dooo-ku. Maybe you've heard of him? I believe even commented on Vos's progress.

So? His showings didn't exactly skyrocket, especially if you're to compare his earlier comparisons with people like Tholme and Tol Skorr to his later ones.

Early on, he got beat up by Kolar, but at the end, he beat someone stronger than Kolar.

You're making a lot of assumptions to back a lacking argument. According to whom is Bulq Agen's superior?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Krayt/Wyyrlok-->Hands/Krayt's Circle-->Guys who work under the Hands, like Azard.

Keep in mind, we're still in the top-10 One Sith in the order. Imagine if the Jedi council was the Grand Master + 5 people. Agen Kolar would be outside of it too, but still important.

Really, the only thing that puts Stryfe above Azard is the respective showings against Sazen, and arguably grabbing Saarai's heart when similarly grabbed. Azard may not be in the circle but he's clearly one of the strongest and most important sith outside of it, him and Havok. There's sith lower than him that show impressive power, like Wredd's master.

Prove it, tbh.

Well, it can't really be proven for certain one way or another, but that's my impression considering Aurra's high performance against a large numbers of masters, from Sharad to Qui-Gon to ones we don't know as much about.

And even then, it doesn't account for Tholme, who is also a capable Jedi Master.

A highly capable spy. He never really does all that well in direct fights despite his skill. Like, ever ^^;

I'm shocked. The fact that you've read the material makes this more astounding, tbh.

How much I like something and how strong I think it is isn't necessarily related.

Zayne Carrick's one of my favorite SW protagonists of all time ^^

Quinlan comes across as an underdog even in some of the fights he wins.

So? His showings didn't exactly skyrocket, especially if you're to compare his earlier comparisons with people like Tholme and Tol Skorr to his later ones.

He's casually dismissed by Windu and Kolar early on, later on he's taking on Sora Bulq head on. You don't call that skyrocketing?

And Skorr started out dangerous to Vos, but Vos continued to widen the gap- even though Skorr should've been improving too.

You're making a lot of assumptions to back a lacking argument. According to whom is Bulq Agen's superior?

According to his performance against Windu, I would say.

But, if he's not, that doesn't really help the argument much. Bulq is easily Vos's best straight win. If Bulq is weaker than Kolar, then that just means Vos never caught up.

I agree Kolar wins but damn Talon and Nihl and other Legacy characters get lowballed pretty badly.

I mean I could just as easily say Ulic doesn't impress me at all since he defeated Warb Null whose only feat was fighting 3 featless jedi simultaneously. Sure Ulic stalemated Exar Kun, but Kun has only beaten featless Vodo Baas, etc.

I think eras are likely a lot closer in skill than people admit, and comics are hard to gauge feats from.

Also, Sazen slew Azard after Krayt revealed he was alive again through the Force, and it distracted Azard which allowed Sazen to deal the fatal blow.

Sazen has fought evenly with Cade and Talon and Nihl. All of which is better than beating Voss. You loose

None of those things are really true; and it would be unhelpful to the Legacy's end of things if they were.

After all, at the end of the day, Cade and the others are in large part powerscaled off of how much better than Sazen they are. The smaller you want to make that gap, the less impressive their showings will seem to be as a result.

TBH.

Originally posted by Trocity
I agree Kolar wins but damn Talon and Nihl and other Legacy characters get lowballed pretty badly.

I mean I could just as easily say Ulic doesn't impress me at all since he defeated Warb Null whose only feat was fighting 3 featless jedi simultaneously. Sure Ulic stalemated Exar Kun, but Kun has only beaten featless Vodo Baas, etc.

They have more on their dueling track record than just what you mentioned, which is where the comparison falls short.

Originally posted by ILS
They also get highballed by certain individuals, a lot.

I don't think it's highballing when they are some of the stronger individuals around at the time.

Btw, I do mentally put Sazen and Kolar in the same general "Mid-Council" level. They're notable badasses, the Jedi bosses send them on important stuff, they regularly do well in combat missions against skilled foes, and there's a couple of their colleagues who're better-still than them.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
None of those things are really true; and it would be unhelpful to the Legacy's end of things if they were.

After all, at the end of the day, Cade and the others are in large part powerscaled off of how much better than Sazen they are. The smaller you want to make that gap, the less impressive their showings will seem to be as a result.

TBH.

I would say Cade and the others were more scaled on how they handled entire groups of normal sith/jedi, and crossovers with people in other eras, and force feats and similar.

I mean, among the main crew that all bounce off each other, we do have Draco taking down a dogpile of a half-dozen sith all at once on his own, very soon after having taken down two prior. He's a bit better than Sazen, but is another that clashes with the Hands and such on fairly close terms.

Nihl's scaled off Sazen to a fair extent, but Cade's the one we have the most battle data on so others tend to scale off him more than anyone else.

I'd say, knowledge-wise, it goes Krayt =~ Cade > Talon > Draco and Sazen and such.

Originally posted by Trocity

Also, Sazen slew Azard after Krayt revealed he was alive again through the Force, and it distracted Azard which allowed Sazen to deal the fatal blow.

The fact that such a minor distraction as that was so fatal still speaks to strength, IMO. It's not like he turned off his saber or such, just a tiny lapse was all the opening needed to slay him.

I think eras are likely a lot closer in skill than people admit, and comics are hard to gauge feats from.

Yes. And I think one can gauge comic feats, but one does have to pay attention to results a bit more because there's no minute-long video or described blow-by-blow explaining how impressive each aspect is.

Originally posted by Q99
I would say Cade and the others were more scaled on how they handled entire groups of normal sith/jedi,

If that was all Cade had under his belt, he wouldn't be anything particularly special. His demolishing of Talon backed up by taking on hordes of Sith fodder makes him so; given that Talon herself was a ways ahead of capable masters like Sazen.

Draco is another that clashes with the Hands and such on fairly close terms.

Draco has never even dueled one of the hands, to my knowledge; though he did duel (and was beaten by) Darth Havok and Roan Fel, who I would think were on that level, yes. Though even then, Sazen isn't as good as Antares is.

Nihl's scaled off Sazen to a fair extent, but Cade's the one we have the most battle data on so others tend to scale off him more than anyone else.

We have no data Cade at all, or anyone from the Legacy era at all with the exceptions of the few crossover characters. Not even any usable accolades, which are often the basis of what makes feats impressive, at least when it comes to skill. (Force Feats are easier, because they can be directly compared without a middle man)

In such a scenario, you have to build from the bottom up. It's ultimately fighters like Sazen that establish Nihl's and Talon's tier, and them that establishes Cade's--not the other way around.

I'd say, knowledge-wise, it goes Krayt =~ Cade > Talon > Draco and Sazen and such.

What do you mean "knowledge wise"?

The fact that such a minor distraction as that was so fatal still speaks to strength, IMO. It's not like he turned off his saber or such, just a tiny lapse was all the opening needed to slay him.

As if. He completely turned away from Sazen and started cheering for Krayt, and Sazen himself attributed his victory to that fact.