That's interesting because I feel the exact same way about you. I didn't even notice I was replying to you until your "You started it" reply and I was like "Oh shit now he's going to take it really personally and get really pissed off at me for disagreeing with him and thinking Kit's out of his league and completely jump down my throat over it uuuuuuurgh."
Originally posted by Nephthys
That's interesting because I feel the exact same way about you. I didn't even notice I was replying to you until your "You started it" reply and I was like "Oh shit now he's going to take it really personally and get really pissed off at me for disagreeing with him and thinking Kit's out of his league and completely jump down my throat over it uuuuuuurgh."
I have no problem with you believing Kit is way out of his league and that he'd be stomped. Thing is, you'd fail miserably in trying to prove it. Obviously you're the one with the problem with my post of not being overly impressed with The Wrath, which is why you were the first to respond and remind me that he's powerful, and reminded me of things we already discussed about him.
You also said Bane would incinerate someone like Maul. Did I jump on your case?
You're free to believe whatever you want.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Not even to close to the same degree. 😬
What makes it not close to the same degree? Your opinion?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Again, the Wrath beat the Jedi Order's best lightsaber instructor AND the best student the guy had ever had at the same time without breaking a sweat. As a mere apprentice a few months after training on Korriban.
And Fisto was besting Grievous pretty solidly, even giving Grievous a second shot at another round when he had the chance to finish him. And again, Grievous has consistently given the likes of Obi Wan a struggle, as well as numerous of other jedi masters, most of which have actual good feats and accolades.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Picked as the Emperor's Wrath. Picked to kill the Emperor's Voice. Picked to beat Baras. Picked for the Strike Team made up of the Empire's greatest champions.
Credited as being better than Cin, who is a master of all forms and also one of the greatest duelists in history. Picked for a strike team to arrest Sidious. Stated by various members of the jedi to be one of histories best.
Originally posted by Nephthys
One of, if not the best warrior in the Swtor Sith Empire. Referred to as having "unstoppable might", with "unrivaled strength in battle" and lightsaber skill and "one of the most powerful Sith in the galaxy".
Yeah, that's good. Again, that's why I said Fisto with difficulty. None of those statement have any bearing on Fisto, considering the very large gap in history between them. Fisto's quotes and accolades hold more weight, especially since he is one of the best in what is canonically known as being the jedi in it's prime. The quality of Fisto's status as being one of the best in his order, is hard to top.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh jesus.Bluh bluh and the Wrath was chosen out of millions of Sith as the best warrior in the Empire, which was considered a vast improvement over the Golden Age of the Sith bluh bluh bluh wank wank wank.
I'm referring to the "prime" comment by Lucas, not the Golden age one. You've seen both.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Master Wyellett was literally considered a superweapon by the Republic before he spent 20 years communing with the Force and massively increasing in power. Not even to mention beating the Emperor's Voice, who was possessed by Sel Makor in the heart of his power. I'd put those above General Grievous any day. Especially considering that was Joke Grievous who is kind of shit.
There was some context behind his defeat of Sel Makor. It's not like he overpowered the actual spirit with his own power. He defeated a body that was possessed by it, and didn't give it time to even adjust to the body. Unless we are to assume he's greater than a godlike spirit and the power of the emperors voice combined. Seriously, what does that fight show us? The Wrath's saber skills, what? Tell me.
That "joke Grievous" has some actual impressive combat feats against impressive jedi. He's outskilled and physically overpowered some via physical strength. Kit's fight with Grievous shows us Fisto's ability with a saber.
Originally posted by Nephthys
And then Fisto lost to Ventress, yeah.
The text indicates the fight was intense and even until Ventress pierced his guard. While her advantage over him was small (analyzing his fighting style), even in a fight amongst equals, a small advantage can go a long way. Furthermore, Wrath's force feats and saber feats pale in comparison to Ventress's, so what exactly is your point?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Which would indicate how much momentum he can get while swimming, not his strength.
Are you referring to the shark general busting through the huge underwater tunnel? If so, that is true. However, it would still be a strength feat for Fisto, given that the same advantage would apply to the shark during their underwater fight; and the fact that Fisto's physical blows to the general's head had an affect on said general, despite his head being durable enough to bust through the tunnel without putting a scratch on him, shows how powerful Fisto's physical attacks are. Not to mention that to match the general in h2h combat, would require Fisto to have enough strength to fight off a beast who can propel himself with tremendous force.
Originally posted by Nephthys
He'd get his ass handed to him almost as easily as Sidious did tbh.
Ok, LeGenD. If that helps you to climax, I won't ruin it for you.
Fact is, even Ahsoka has better feats, especially in regards to TK than the Wrath. You wouldn't be able to prove he'd beat her, let alone one of the top dogs of her era.
Originally posted by Carthage
I'd say he'd have problems with his power at the very least. I doubt speed would be an issue for Wrath, the guy more or less blitzed a Jedi that was charging him/killed a Jedi with lightning before he could deflect it. Fisto's best TK showing is moving a huge canister iirc, Wrath dropped a huge slab of ceiling and killed multiple troopers/a Jedi before he could react. He's clearly more powerful and his form could prove problematic for Shii Cho
They are close in every area it seems
In the force, if we include his miniCW feats, Fisto trumps him in that TK; and given Fisto's reputation and rank in the order, I don't see why we shouldn't include them, considering they aren't overly exaggerated, and the fact that the creator of the series said he depicted the jedi as fully unleashing their powers in desperate situations (something along those lines). Regardless, even in TCW, Fisto hurled a speeder with the force as if launching it through thin air, despite being in underwater pressure. Also, Fisto's lifting of the huge liquid filled canister would indicate precision and strength in TK, considering how he casually lifted it and put it down carefully without trying to break it. The only real edge The Wrath has over Kit regarding force powers, is his range of abilities as is with most sith vs jedi.
BTW, if I were to use Neph's own logic regarding speed against him, then I wouldn't even have to list force feats. If power is the only key to one's speed, then Fisto is a beast by default since he is considered one of the greatest duelists in history. Exceptional speed would be a requirement, just as skill, especially in the context of a life or death duel, which is what the quotes about Fisto indicate, especially being was acknowledged as greater than Cin (who is considered a master of every form and among the best himself), and being picked to arrest Sidious.
Anywho, Wrath could likely win, but it will be an intense fight. I don't expect Neph to accept that, though.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I have no problem with you believing Kit is way out of his league and that he'd be stomped. Thing is, you'd fail miserably in trying to prove it. Obviously you're the one with the problem with my post of not being overly impressed with The Wrath, which is why you were the first to respond and remind me that he's powerful, and reminded me of things we already discussed about him.You also said Bane would incinerate someone like Maul. Did I jump on your case?
You're free to believe whatever you want.
Um, you asked for more on the Wrath so I gave you a run down of his feats and showings. Not sure how that's me having a problem, like I said it didn't even register who I was talking to. But then you were like "You started this. Don't cry", which indicates some hostility or warning on your part.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Um, you asked for more on the Wrath so I gave you a run down of his feats and showings. Not sure how that's me having a problem, like I said it didn't even register who I was talking to. But then you were like "You started this. Don't cry", which indicates some hostility or warning on your part.
I asked for anything new. I know most of what you posted. His best feats are feats we already discussed in other debates.
When I made that comment, I was referring to your point by point reply to me, which was filled with sarcasm, some lowballing, and insinuating that I'm wanking Fisto. Like I said, when it's done back to you, you get overly angry and act as if you're going to ignore my posts, just to do it all over again. At least I respect you enough to let you know so you won't act clueless and victimized.
Again, I didn't know it was you. So I didn't know that you already knew all that shit.
I thought you were referring to my first reply to you, since you mentioned me reminding you he's powerful. Which was what my first reply did. And I do think you're wanking Fisto by suggesting he's on par with the Wrath tbh. He really should be decidedly below beings of the Wrath's caliber. He's just a Council member.
I think you've gotten the impression I feel victimised by you or that I get angry with you. But the truth of why I prefer to avoid you is simply because discussions with you are unpleasant and I'm here to have fun. So when you were constantly jumping on me for shit I just decided not to bother anymore. You're the one who felt victimised by my terrible double standards and got super angry with me. So that's why I decided to just be chill and not start anything with you again because all that bickering became lame as balls.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What makes it not close to the same degree? Your opinion?
The evidence? Sorry bro, but Kit Fisto isn't on the same level as the Emperor's Wrath. One's one of the greatest Sith ever who resists godlike beings like Sel Makor and the Dread Masters and the other is an above average Council member. Fisto certainly isn't powerful or skilled enough to literally be considered a superweapon before he vastly improves in power. Personally I boggle at how a Jedi even gets that accolade without being at crazypants levels. And then gets much MORE POWERFUL??? o_O
And the Wrath can beat that guy in Act II. And you think Ahsoka > ? You can see why I think you're really, really selling Swtor short here I hope.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And Fisto was besting Grievous pretty solidly, even giving Grievous a second shot at another round when he had the chance to finish him. And again, Grievous has consistently given the likes of Obi Wan a struggle, as well as numerous of other jedi masters, most of which have actual good feats and accolades.
Well he did use TK to get the upper hand. As most of GG's opponents do. Early Grievous really isn't a stellar combatant though. He's certainly not as good as he is later on. He did have to cheat to beat Vebb. And Fisto does have an advantage with Shii-Cho and his flexibility. Still, it is a very good feat. It's just not good enough to suggest parity with the Wrath. He'd beat GG as well.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Credited as being better than Cin, who is a master of all forms and also one of the greatest duelists in history.
Come on. We both know the Wrath would curbstomp Drallig. Let's just get that out of they way, ok?
TBH I'm not even sure Drallig could have killed the Beast of Marka Ragnos with a training saber like acolyte Wrath did. Terentateks are known to slaughter even groups of highly powerful Jedi, are they not? Or maybe I'm just selling Cin short.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Picked for a strike team to arrest Sidious.
Which doesn't indicate as much as you seem to think. At the time the only impressive Jedi on the planet were the B team, Anakin, Shaak Ti and Drallig. Mace distrusted Anakin and Shaak Ti was chosen to guard the temple, so the only thing we can ascertain with Kit being picked is that he's > ol' Drallig again.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Stated by various members of the jedi to be one of histories best.
Which is pretty vague and hyperbolic and not really all that useful as evidence for his skills.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah, that's good. Again, that's why I said Fisto with difficulty. None of those statement have any bearing on Fisto, considering the very large gap in history between them. Fisto's quotes and accolades hold more weight, especially since he is one of the best in what is canonically known as being the jedi in it's prime. The quality of Fisto's status as being one of the best in his order, is hard to top.
And I simply don't see it man. What accolades and quotes? Being one of the best duelists in history and being > Drallig? Wrath is basically in the top 3-5 duelists of his age and Fisto is like 10th, maybe. Do you just put THAT much more weight on the PT era?
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I'm referring to the "prime" comment by Lucas, not the Golden age one. You've seen both.
Yes I know what you were talking about thank you.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
There was some context behind his defeat of Sel Makor. It's not like he overpowered the actual spirit with his own power. He defeated a body that was possessed by it, and didn't give it time to even adjust to the body. Unless we are to assume he's greater than a godlike spirit and the power of the emperors voice combined. Seriously, what does that fight show us? The Wrath's saber skills, what? Tell me.That "joke Grievous" has some actual impressive combat feats against impressive jedi. He's outskilled and physically overpowered some via physical strength. Kit's fight with Grievous shows us Fisto's ability with a saber.
You're wrong actually. Sel Makor did have time to adjust to the body, since before the Wrath fights it but after it possesses Vitiate, Sel Makor magics up about 20ish Gormak to fight. I guess..... to give it time to adjust to the body. >:]
I mean, I'm not sure you understand that when I say godlike I mean that he can literally create beings out of nothing, on top of being capable of planetary destruction. So clearly even in possession of the Voice's body Sel Makor was pretty f*cking powerful to be able to create a bunch of creatures out of thin air (something he'd also done earlier btw). Magada-Ru even describes him as "all-powerful" at one point. Which clearly isn't the case to be fair. >:]
The fight show's us how freaking powerful the Wrath is. Fisto likely would have evaporated if he tried to fight something as powerful as that. That the Wrath can withstand the powers of such a being and defeat it is freaking legendary. No, I don't think he's greater than Sel Makor + Vitiate, obviously. But are you trying to suggest that being wasn't still immensely powerful? Come on. It's at least Dooku levels bro. AT LEAST. 😬
This was still early CW, so it's entirely probable that GG just wasn't that great a duelist yet. Not as good as he would become at least. Still early on his Dooku training.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The text indicates the fight was intense and even until Ventress pierced his guard. While her advantage over him was small (analyzing his fighting style), even in a fight amongst equals, a small advantage can go a long way. Furthermore, Wrath's force feats and saber feats pale in comparison to Ventress's, so what exactly is your point?
That close to AotC Ventress isn't that impressive though. So Fisto being on her level just doesn't suggest anything overly impressive in sabers. I mean, hell no does the Wrath pale in comparison to Ventress's. That's absurd and dumb as hell. He'd beat her at her peak.
You really think that the Emperor's Wrath would lose to Asajj Ventress? >:?
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Are you referring to the shark general busting through the huge underwater tunnel? If so, that is true. However, it would still be a strength feat for Fisto, given that the same advantage would apply to the shark during their underwater fight; and the fact that Fisto's physical blows to the general's head had an affect on said general, despite his head being durable enough to bust through the tunnel without putting a scratch on him, shows how powerful Fisto's physical attacks are. Not to mention that to match the general in h2h combat, would require Fisto to have enough strength to fight off a beast who can propel himself with tremendous force.
Wouldn't propelling himself indicate his tail and legs muscles though? Not his upper body strength. TBH I've never seen this fight, so I can't tell how accurate you're being in describing this, but I guess that's a decent feat. Sub-Khem, but decent.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Ok, LeGenD. If that helps you to climax, I won't ruin it for you.Fact is, even Ahsoka has better feats, especially in regards to TK than the Wrath. You wouldn't be able to prove he'd beat her, let alone one of the top dogs of her era.
😆
Oh man, you actually believe that, right? Priceless.
How do you think Ahsoka would react to the Dread Masters? Because I'm pretty sure they'd crush her without even looking. As would the Emperor's Voice and probably Baras and Ekkage too.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
BTW, if I were to use Neph's own logic regarding speed against him, then I wouldn't even have to list force feats. If power is the only key to one's speed, then Fisto is a beast by default since he is considered one of the greatest duelists in history. Exceptional speed would be a requirement, just as skill, especially in the context of a life or death duel, which is what the quotes about Fisto indicate, especially being was acknowledged as greater than Cin (who is considered a master of every form and among the best himself), and being picked to arrest Sidious.
I'm not even sure what the **** you're talking about here. How is that my logic? Exceptional speed based on that evidence? Are you.... on the drugs? It's ok man, I can help you if you are. (this is a joke, calm down)
I mean, even the Bounty Hunter beat Darth Tormen who could easily blitz other Sith Lords. So lets not wank the PT's speed that much, ok?
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Anywho, Wrath could likely win, but it will be an intense fight. I don't expect Neph to accept that, though.
He may not curbstomp him, but Fisto really isn't that close to him at all. He's vastly more powerful and just a superior combatant by far.
Originally posted by Nephthys
The evidence? Sorry bro, but Kit Fisto isn't on the same level as the Emperor's Wrath. One's one of the greatest Sith ever who resists godlike beings like Sel Makor and the Dread Masters and the other is an above average Council member. Fisto certainly isn't powerful or skilled enough to literally be considered a superweapon before he vastly improves in power. Personally I boggle at how a Jedi even gets that accolade without being at crazypants levels. And then gets much MORE POWERFUL??? o_O
He's powerful enough to be considered by numerous beings as one of histories greatest.
Resisting Sel Makor means he can resist lightsaber blows? Again, what bearing would any of that have against Fisto?
Originally posted by Nephthys
And the Wrath can beat that guy in Act II. And you think Ahsoka > ? You can see why I think you're really, really selling Swtor short here I hope.
No, I don't actually think that. My point is, your opinion is irrelevant and needs more backing than a bunch of fancy terms and implications of power. Feat-wise, Ahsoka even as of season 1 has better force feats than your precious Wrath. Powerscaling, she is far below Fisto, who happens to be among the best of her order. Anakin was furious in learning that Ahsoka attempted to try and take on Grievous alone, whereas Dooku was unsurprised that Grievous couldn't take on someone like Fisto.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Well he did use TK to get the upper hand. As most of GG's opponents do. Early Grievous really isn't a stellar combatant though.
No, he didn't. He was all over Grievous, forcing the general on the fleeting end during majority of the duel, and even disarmed him of one saber within the first few seconds of the fight.
Early Grievous has maintained an upper hand against Kenobi in their saber duels. Hell, even TPM Kenobi was good enough to provide a great deal of help for Qui Gon when facing one of the most skilled and well trained sith lords of all time.
Originally posted by Nephthys
He's certainly not as good as he is later on.
Nothing indicates a difference in Grievous' dueling ability. His performances against Kenobi remained about the same until ROTS, indicating that the only one who improved between the two was Kenobi.
Regardless, I can just as easily say Fisto improved as well. Force users tend to get more powerful with time, enhancing their connection to the force. Grievous' advantage over his opponents is his strength, along with the speed and different angles in which he can attack with all four sabers. He also has chip in his brain that allows him to quickly adapt to his opponents fighting style within a few exchanges. Those are all advantages he had when facing Fisto as well. He doesn't get a speed upgrade every month.
Originally posted by Nephthys
He'd beat GG as well.
Via the force, if Grievous gives him an opening. Otherwise, you have nothing from him to suggest he'd overcome Grievous in a saber duel.
Originally posted by Nephthys
TBH I'm not even sure Drallig could have killed the Beast of Marka Ragnos with a training saber like acolyte Wrath did. Terentateks are known to slaughter even groups of highly powerful Jedi, are they not? Or maybe I'm just selling Cin short.
Irrelevant.
BTW, do you have a quote about Terentateks killing groups of highly powerful jedi?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Which doesn't indicate as much as you seem to think. At the time the only impressive Jedi on the planet were the B team, Anakin, Shaak Ti and Drallig. Mace distrusted Anakin and Shaak Ti was chosen to guard the temple, so the only thing we can ascertain with Kit being picked is that he's > ol' Drallig again.
It proves Kit is better than any of them since Mace chose the best there to face Sidious. Cin is a master of all saber forms, and is stated to be among the best in jedi history (Zenwolf provided the source). Being better than some of the best means what, Neph?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Which is pretty vague and hyperbolic and not really all that useful as evidence for his skills.
It's not vague or hyperbolic at all. It's pretty straight forward, especially in the context of a life or death duel against the most powerful sith in history, which is pretty much what the statements focused on.
Vague are the statements you keep harping on to elevate The Wrath far higher than he is. Most of it just implies power and exceptional skill, which I'm not arguing against. Kit's quotes basically tells us where he is at compared to the majority of jedi in history.
Originally posted by Nephthys
And I simply don't see it man. What accolades and quotes? Being one of the best duelists in history and being > Drallig? Wrath is basically in the top 3-5 duelists of his age and Fisto is like 10th, maybe. Do you just put THAT much more weight on the PT era?
So he's better than Fisto because Fisto has more superiors within his era than The Wrath does his? What awful logic, especially since being at the top of an era in it's prime would be a harder position to fill. I mean, Dooku, Yoda, Sidious, Mace, Maul, Anakin, etc.
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, I don't think he's greater than Sel Makor + Vitiate, obviously.
He defeats a godlike being who possessed Vitiate's voice, but he's not better than their combined strength? What exactly should I be impressed about then?
Originally posted by Nephthys
But are you trying to suggest that being wasn't still immensely powerful? Come on. It's at least Dooku levels bro. AT LEAST. 😬
Not powerful enough to defeat someone like The Wrath. Dooku would demolish The Wrath. Obviously the being wasn't operating at full power which makes it hard to determine how great the feat is. Of course I wouldn't assume that just anyone could pull it off, but Fisto isn't just anyone. Besides, I'd say Boba fighting Abeloth is more impressive, yet Boba wouldn't stand a chance against Kit.
The only conclusion you can draw from the fight is that The Wrath is powerful. The only other alternative, is to assume he is greater than the combined power of Vitiate and Makor.
Originally posted by Nephthys
That close to AotC Ventress isn't that impressive though.
She's more impressive than The Wrath and has better feats even as of when Dooku first discovered her. According to him, she was a sith in all but name, as far as sheer combat.
Originally posted by Nephthys
You really think that the Emperor's Wrath would lose to Asajj Ventress? >:?
Based on feats? Hell yeah, which is why barely losing to her isn't a bad showing, especially when she had an advantage.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Wouldn't propelling himself indicate his tail and legs muscles though? Not his upper body strength. TBH I've never seen this fight, so I can't tell how accurate you're being in describing this, but I guess that's a decent feat. Sub-Khem, but decent.
Pretty sure it's on youtube.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not even sure what the **** you're talking about here. How is that my logic? Exceptional speed based on that evidence? Are you.... on the drugs? It's ok man, I can help you if you are. (this is a joke, calm down)
Pretty simple. You have consistently asserted that speed hinges on a force users power, and that someone labeled powerful can't be blitzed despite a lack of speed feats. Consider this, Fisto is one of the greatest duelists of his order (and of all time). A requirement to fill such a roll would be that he have exceptional speed, thus making Fisto a force beast by default, especially if power and speed are connected. Before you say it could be about technical skill, being one of the greatest swordsmen in the context of a life or death duel, speed is just as important as technical skill, otherwise one can't be considered as one of the greatest swordsmen if he is unable to use his skill with sufficient speed.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I mean, even the Bounty Hunter beat Darth Tormen who could easily blitz other Sith Lords.
Well then, there goes your theory. Why don't you read carefully before arguing against an assertion you constantly apply in debates?
Are you going to flip out if I tell you that I may use your own statement against you in future debates regarding speed? Or is this, again, your last time responding to me? lol
Originally posted by Nephthys
So lets not wank the PT's speed that much, ok?
Pay attention next time.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Fisto really isn't that close to him at all. He's vastly more powerful and just a superior combatant by far.
Right, although Fisto has the better dueling feats of the two, such as easily besting Grievous, who has given other jedi masters, whom also have good feats and hype under their name, as opposed to besting people who are called skilled. Fisto also has better force feats. But, by all means, keep on harping on The Wrath's fancy terms and hyperbolic quotes. After all, Fisto's more straight forward quotes are still better.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He's powerful enough to be considered by numerous beings as one of histories greatest.Resisting Sel Makor means he can resist lightsaber blows? Again, what bearing would any of that have against Fisto?
That doesn't have any bearing on his power and a bunch of uninformed opinions matter little to someone as powerful as the Wrath, not does that accolade confer superiority to him. It's simply not that impressive. I find the thing I keep bringing up, the Jedi who was so powerful he was considered a superweapon, to be a greater accolade than that.
The bearing is that he's far more powerful than Fisto. So far you've not even tried addressing any of the evidence I've shown you that he's immensely powerful and have just pretended it doesn't exist or establish anything. If you're not going to engage my points then I'm not sure why we're even talking. The Wrath has defeated opponents who vastly exceed Fisto in power or resisted their power with his own. This establishes his own level of power as far greater than Fisto's.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, I don't actually think that. My point is, your opinion is irrelevant and needs more backing than a bunch of fancy terms and implications of power. Feat-wise, Ahsoka even as of season 1 has better force feats than your precious Wrath. Powerscaling, she is far below Fisto, who happens to be among the best of her order. Anakin was furious in learning that Ahsoka attempted to try and take on Grievous alone, whereas Dooku was unsurprised that Grievous couldn't take on someone like Fisto.
Please don't refer to him as "your precious Wrath." It comes off as more mean-spirited and hostile than I'd like to suffer when talking to someone.
And you're being ridiculous if you think Ahsoka has greater Force feats than him. The Wrath resisted the power of the Dread Masters with his own power. Need I remind you again that they can crush entire fleets with their power? Or that they once killed every living thing in a quarter mile? Or that a tiny fraction of their power obliterated a giant statue indirectly? Oh man but Ahsoka pulled a wall over, clearly that's much better right? 🙄
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, he didn't. He was all over Grievous, forcing the general on the fleeting end during majority of the duel, and even disarmed him of one saber within the first few seconds of the fight.Early Grievous has maintained an upper hand against Kenobi in their saber duels. Hell, even TPM Kenobi was good enough to provide a great deal of help for Qui Gon when facing one of the most skilled and well trained sith lords of all time.
It's how he got the definitive edge over him. Again, I chalk it up to Grievous' inexperience against a true Jedi Master and his arrogance getting the best of him. Not that Fisto's performance isn't impressive or that he's isn't hovering around Grievous' level somewhere (beneath his peak imo). But I don't see how the feat establishes Fisto as better than the Wrath.
And early AotC Kenobi isn't the beast you're making him out as. So in a 2 on 1 duel he actually managed to contribute? Wow, incredible.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Nothing indicates a difference in Grievous' dueling ability. His performances against Kenobi remained about the same until ROTS, indicating that the only one who improved between the two was Kenobi.Regardless, I can just as easily say Fisto improved as well. Force users tend to get more powerful with time, enhancing their connection to the force. Grievous' advantage over his opponents is his strength, along with the speed and different angles in which he can attack with all four sabers. He also has chip in his brain that allows him to quickly adapt to his opponents fighting style within a few exchanges. Those are all advantages he had when facing Fisto as well. He doesn't get a speed upgrade every month.
Which kind of proves my point, since GG performed consistently against Kenobi who we know made significant improvement during the war. So... thanks?
You're free to offer your baseless speculation, sure. But there's noting that indicates that Fisto improved and he seems to have already reached his peak. And clearly GG requires more than just that chip, else he wouldn't need to train with Dooku. He still needs to get familiar with actual lightsaber combat as we can see when Dooku gives him pointers on how best to fight. GG loses his hand to Fisto seemingly through a misstep and miscalculation on his part.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Via the force, if Grievous gives him an opening. Otherwise, you have nothing from him to suggest he'd overcome Grievous in a saber duel.
I'm fairly sure I've established the Wrath's strength, speed, power and skill enough to prove he can take Grievous in a saber duel.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Irrelevant.BTW, do you have a quote about Terentateks killing groups of highly powerful jedi?
No, it isn't irrelevant. It establishes how much of a combat beast the Wrath is that he killed an enhanced Terentatek that had slaughtered every Jedi and Sith that laid eyes on it since Marka Ragnos' time. With a training saber. After just landing on Korriban. You don't find that incredibly impressive and think it establishes a prodigious talent and level of power that would only vastly grow? If he's that good in a few months, how do you think he'd be in a 3+ years? The Wraths also good enough to kill a prominent and very powerful Darth on the next planet in the game. So he's clearly an utter prodigy and powerhouse. How good was Fisto a few months after becoming a Jedi?
Not on me, but the whole point of the Great Hunt was that groups of Jedi Masters were sent out to hunt down and kill Terentateks and many of them failed. There was that Qel'Droma thing as well as I recall. But the Beast of Marka Ragnos was a special one anyway, so it's an incredible feat.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It proves Kit is better than any of them since Mace chose the best there to face Sidious. Cin is a master of all saber forms, and is stated to be among the best in jedi history (Zenwolf provided the source). Being better than some of the best means what, Neph?
Better than Anakin? Don't be silly. Better than Cin and maybe better than Shaak Ti, sure. But there's other reasons he could have been chosen over Ti than strict superiority.
It means you're also one of the best, but that's simply equally as vague as before and your statements about that are still uninformed opinions.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It's not vague or hyperbolic at all. It's pretty straight forward, especially in the context of a life or death duel against the most powerful sith in history, which is pretty much what the statements focused on.Vague are the statements you keep harping on to elevate The Wrath far higher than he is. Most of it just implies power and exceptional skill, which I'm not arguing against. Kit's quotes basically tells us where he is at compared to the majority of jedi in history.
It's incredibly vague and incredibly hyperbolic. He's one of the best according to what criteria? On what scale? Is he in the top 100? Top 10,000 swordsmen? Who knows. It doesn't establish he's better than pretty much any notable swordsman. It doesn't automatically confer superiority to someone without the same accolade. That's clearly illogical.
How is there the slightest bit of difference there? Being one of the best implies power and exceptional skill just as much as any of the Wrath's quotes. How does it place Fisto above the majority of Jedi any more than the Wrath's or anyone elses quotes place them above the majority of Sith/Jedi?
Like, do you not think the Wrath is also one of the best swordsman ever? You can think not if you want, but the vagueness of the statement could easily apply to him regardless. Even if you thought he was merely in top million, it could still apply to him exactly as easily as it could to Kit Fisto.
But of course, this is all kind of moot. Since again, that accolade is just an unsupported opinion. So it's not really that important.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
So he's better than Fisto because Fisto has more superiors within his era than The Wrath does his? What awful logic, especially since being at the top of an era in it's prime would be a harder position to fill. I mean, Dooku, Yoda, Sidious, Mace, Maul, Anakin, etc.
No, but you keep going on about Fisto's placement in the era's and standing putting him above the Wrath, so I figured I'd respond to that. The Swtor era has plenty of premier swordsman as well, the overwhelming majority of which as lesser than the Wrath.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He defeats a godlike being who possessed Vitiate's voice, but he's not better than their combined strength? What exactly should I be impressed about then?
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It's unimpressive unless he defeats someone with Sel Makor and Vitiate's combined power? Are you trolling me here? I think I'd see you in a better light if you were tbh. Otherwise you're just being willfully obtuse, thoughtless and disingenuous.
You're supposed to be impressed by him defeating a being of immense power. That he's not freaking double Sidious level doesn't make that a worthless feat. Duh.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Not powerful enough to defeat someone like The Wrath. Dooku would demolish The Wrath. Obviously the being wasn't operating at full power which makes it hard to determine how great the feat is. Of course I wouldn't assume that just anyone could pull it off, but Fisto isn't just anyone. Besides, I'd say Boba fighting Abeloth is more impressive, yet Boba wouldn't stand a chance against Kit.The only conclusion you can draw from the fight is that The Wrath is powerful. The only other alternative, is to assume he is greater than the combined power of Vitiate and Makor.
That's a ridiculous conclusion and I'm surprised someone I thought was pretty smart could come to it. Your preconceived notions of how powerful the Wrath is shouldn't impact the estimation of a feat establishing the Wrath's power. You're saying that the Wrath sucks and because he sucks his feat must have been easy and thus he sucks. It's an entirely circular argument that relies on the faulty premise that Dooku would demolish the Wrath in order to reach a conclusion based entirely on the faulty premise. So you're using your conclusion to support your conclusion. Don't be dumb.
You seem to think it was operating at like 20% power though. That's stupid, at worst it would be an vaguely-impeded Voice. That is still monstrously powerful and still on a level than would obliterate Fisto.
Sel Makor was still powerful enough to be able to create beings out of nothing to fight the Wrath. So we know he still wielded massive levels of power. That's a feat beyond pretty much every Force User who isn't in the seriously big leagues. And faaaaaar above Kit freaking Fisto. You don't need to be Vitiate + Makor levels to have massive power, you know. Try again.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
She's more impressive than The Wrath and has better feats even as of when Dooku first discovered her. According to him, she was a sith in all but name, as far as sheer combat.
She isn't and she doesn't. The Wrath could take her at her prime and take her apart that early. Being a Sith in all but name doesn't change the fact that she wasn't taught any Sith teachings or techniques. She wasn't a Sith.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Based on feats? Hell yeah, which is why barely losing to her isn't a bad showing, especially when she had an advantage.
I didn't say it's a bad showing, I was using it to allow us to establish Fisto's level. Since he lost to early Ventress, it's clear to me that he's not really on stomping Grievous levels or RotS Kenobi level or anything like that. I brought it up as a comparison to help us better evaluate him. Because whooping GG and losing to AotC Ventress is an gross inconsistency.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Pretty sure it's on youtube.
I looked.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Pretty simple. You have consistently asserted that speed hinges on a force users power, and that someone labeled powerful can't be blitzed despite a lack of speed feats. Consider this, Fisto is one of the greatest duelists of his order (and of all time). A requirement to fill such a roll would be that he have exceptional speed, thus making Fisto a force beast by default, especially if power and speed are connected. Before you say it could be about technical skill, being one of the greatest swordsmen in the context of a life or death duel, speed is just as important as technical skill, otherwise one can't be considered as one of the greatest swordsmen if he is unable to use his skill with sufficient speed.
I'm pretty sure this is another imagined faux pas you've cooked up for me. I don't recall saying that. At most I've argued that the more powerful a person is the better they should be in sabers in general but feats are still the best, most reliable method of establishing that stuff. My position has always been that if someone is very powerful than we can assume decent baseline levels for his ability because otherwise that would be pretty nonsensical. I've not consistently asserted what you think I have at all. Which doesn't matter since your argument is utterly nonsensical and doesn't support itself at all.
If you could, I'd really appreciate if you'd stop bringing up arguments I've made in the past and trying to throw them in my face. Especially if you're going to mess it up as badly as this.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Well then, there goes your theory. Why don't you read carefully before arguing against an assertion you constantly apply in debates?Are you going to flip out if I tell you that I may use your own statement against you in future debates regarding speed? Or is this, again, your last time responding to me? lol
What theory? I seriously just cannot get you sometimes. I don't even see how that defeats your made up argument of mine. That the Hunter can defeat extremely fast Sith Lords has nothing to do with whether or not Force Speed is entirely reliant on an individuals power. You were really tired when you wrote this, weren't you.
It's not like Anakin, Obi-Wan, Ventress, Grievous, Maul etc haven't had problems in melee with non-force sensitives, bro.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Pay attention next time.
I just... I don't even know what you think you've proven here.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Right, although Fisto has the better dueling feats of the two, such as easily besting Grievous, who has given other jedi masters, whom also have good feats and hype under their name, as opposed to besting people who are called skilled. Fisto also has better force feats. But, by all means, keep on harping on The Wrath's fancy terms and hyperbolic quotes. After all, Fisto's more straight forward quotes are still better.
The only dueling feat you've brought up is him getting the upper hand on Grievous. Which isn't good enough. Fisto is far less powerful his accolades are simply not as good. And not as good as you seem to think they are either.
The Wrath still wins easily.