Originally posted by Bardock42
If even a hardcore Democrat like TI thinks the Republicans did nothing wrong, I think we can all agree they didn't.
A person from Germany who dismisses his countries past transgressions as "It was Polands fault" literally should not be talking or passing blame, and if you knew anything about moderate democratic politics you would know where I stand.
Originally posted by Star428
Even if they did break the law, so friggin' what? Obama does that all the time and gets away with it. Granting amnesty to millions of illegal aliens is much worse than what the republicans did and can have far greater consequences.
I was going to mention this but it would fall on deaf ears, he had no constitutional power to do what he did, however according to everyone here, he didn't break the law. I would say the republicans were stupid to do what they did, however they didn't break the law.
Originally posted by Star428
Even if they did break the law, so friggin' what? Obama does that all the time and gets away with it. Granting amnesty to millions of illegal aliens is much worse than what the republicans did and can have far greater consequences.
Here's the issue that Republicans have with Obama, as I see it: in cases such as Iran, Cuba, and the illegals' amnesty, Obama is facing the facts and seeing that the current policies (aggressive containment of Iran, the embargo, treating all illegals as criminals) have failed and is trying something else. Conservatives don't want to admit that these policies have been abject failures because these policies were set up by conservative Presidents.
In the pipe dream conservative world, Castro's Cuba is only a few years from collapsing and begging the USA to help them build a free market democracy, Iran's nuclear ambitions could be permanently stymied with a single bunker buster, and it's only a matter of willpower to round up, identify, and repatriate (or imprison) more than eleven million illegals of various nationalities scattered across the country, economically integrated with America.
Originally posted by Time Immemorial
If its always the Republicans fault or the democrats fault and nothing really gets done, why is that the only two parties that can be elected are of those? Seems to me the system is rigged for them and against us.
Ok, the system is a bit winner-takes-all, which means if you don't have a chance of getting 50%, there's not too much point in playing, but it should also be noted that each party is basically a coalition of what other countries would call parties, who band together and basically say, "Ok, I'm here for these social issues. Your economic issues aren't as critical to me, but I'll support most of yours and you'll support most of mine and we'll call ourselves a party, ok?".
Like, there's a group called the 'Dixiecrats'. They, as the name implies, were Southerners who voted Democrats. In the 60s, the Democrats pissed them off something fierce with the civil rights movement, so they left, and were in the proverbial wilderness for a bit, then the Republicans changed their strategy to court them, and now they're at the core of the Republican party.
The big business Republicans have traditionally been at the core of the party, but due to recent poor moves by the party, and the Tea Party having more say over the economics than they do currently- when they used to be *the* economics deciders within the Republicans- has caused them to be more marginalized within the party and it being expected that more will go Democrat unless things change. They didn't move, but the other factions within the Republicans moved away from them so they may be near a flip point, and a good number of individuals have already come over.
What happens is when there's a new faction that gains a lot of popularity, it doesn't form a new party like it would in Europe, it joins one of the prior parties, either because one obviously aligns with it or one actively courts it harder. The tea party being the most obvious example.
If neither party wants it/it doesn't find itself aligned with either, then it may hang around, but it fulfills a role fairly similar to what many marginal parties do in parliamentary systems. That is to say, while they may throw a small amount of influence on this issue or that, push larger parties when they can, they largely sit on the sidelines where the major voting blocks do their thing. The libertarians are an example of this in the US, though they seem to be drifting more towards the Republican side of things or, I should say, the Republicans have happened to drift a bit closer to them. If we have a parliamentary system, they'd only have a few votes anyway and wouldn't particularly have more influence then than they do with Ron Paul trying to push the Republicans does now.
Additionally, on the 'nothing really gets done' thing- that really is one side, and historically very unusual. The Republicans have a distinct lack of willingness to compromise on anything but 'you come over to our side,' and will block most things the opposition tries out of spite a lot of the time. This, in turn, has made it very hard for them to get stuff done, as the normal way of accomplishing things is to make a deal to let a little of the opposition's way past in exchange for a little of your way, in general proportion to who has the most advantage in seats and so on. Normally the self-interest of compromise in that situation is clear, i.e. at least you'll get *some* of what you want done, but the current batch is more interested in stopping the opposition entirely/thinks that if they muscle through they can somehow get all of what they want (largely the tea party rookies think this, btw, the old hands tend to at least understand there's limits to that), and because they think they can win by continuing this tactic, when really they cannot, we're stuck this way until they lose power.
Originally posted by Bardock42
If even a hardcore Democrat like TI thinks the Republicans did nothing wrong, I think we can all agree they didn't.
That's rather silly.
The people who think they did something wrong include 7 (or more) Republican senators, the other half of the government, many of the people in the country, multiple of our major allies involved in the negotiation, Iran (who've thankfully written it off as a cheap stunt), and most political experts everywhere.
What they did wrong isn't simply about legality, but credibility. They're making America come off as less credible on the world stage and our international commitments come off as less reliable.
Which is bad and, since it's being done in exchange for zero gain, really dumb.
Originally posted by ares834
Of course it did. It was an idiotic move in virtually every way. Not only does it undermine the president but it serves as a smokecreen and gives him an adequate excuse for whatever deal we end up getting.
Basically, it gives Obama an excuse to do any deal and shift off blame on the Republicans. It gives the Iranians an excuse to insist on more concessions and blame the lack of credibility caused by the Republicans. It gives a higher likelyhood of *no* deal, which would then be blamed on the Republicans...
They simply haven't learned, sticking your head into tense negotiations and saying "Even if our guy agree it means nothing, you gotta convince us!" when, in fact, they don't gotta be involved, it can be done without them (as both sides but apparently not them know), is a stupid move all around. It doesn't make anyone think they should be listened to, like they apparently thought it would do.
Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Except they didn't break the law. And show where the president stated they broke the law, and if they did break the law why are they not being prosecuted.
Because the Logan Act is one of the least-prosecutable laws in existence (it pretty much exists so one can point out, "hey, pulling this stuff is technically illegal!"😉, and trying to prosecute almost half of congress for being idiots simply isn't going to work politically.
Its very stupid to have a law and claim it was broken then do nothing to enforce it? Rather seems politicians are above the law. Where is the average citizen who elects the politicians gets shitted on, a daily basis.
Bardock and Lest wants to focus on "Look what the republicans did" when literally it never ends with laws broken with politicians.
Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
The funny thing is how Iran just shrugged it off, and called out how the US senators themselves have no idea about local treaties, let alone international treaties. 😂
I might just give up talking about these jackasses, no sense in defending anyone anymore, they all fcked up.
The letter makes sense when you consider its author. Tom Cotton first came to the attention of his future voter base when he wrote a letter to the New York Times suggesting that the journalists who uncovered a US Government method for tracking terrorist finances (admittedly, I don't really approve of those kinds of articles, which complicate counterterrorist efforts for the sake of a good story) be imprisoned for espionage.
He's a hotspur, or in more modern parlance: a loose cannon. Most likely he didn't care what the diplomatic fallout would be because he has short term, selfish goals in mind: making a name for himself and hurting his domestic opponents.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
The letter makes sense when you consider its author. Tom Cotton first came to the attention of his future voter base when he wrote a letter to the New York Times suggesting that the journalists who uncovered a US Government method for tracking terrorist finances (admittedly, I don't really approve of those kinds of articles, which complicate counterterrorist efforts for the sake of a good story) be imprisoned for espionage.He's a hotspur, or in more modern parlance: a loose cannon. Most likely he didn't care what the diplomatic fallout would be because he has short term, selfish goals in mind: making a name for himself and hurting his domestic opponents.
Also known as, an idiot 🙂 And like you say, a selfish one, who'll have the US cut off it's nose to spite it's face.
Joe Biden gets unleashed
http://bluenationreview.com/joe-biden-ready-cut-47-republican-senators/
Originally posted by Lestov16
Joe Biden gets unleashedhttp://bluenationreview.com/joe-biden-ready-cut-47-republican-senators/
Don't see it happening, but would be funny if at least one of the 47 is thrown under the bus and goes to jail for a bit, even if it's white-collar-resort-jail.