Where does well trained end and top tier MA begin?

That can be said of most moral characters. Not really a big deal.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Bruce holds back

By the time Tim got to be Red Robin pre-reboot, he was pretty good. Basically he was able to put his analytical mind to fighting.

Though on the flipside, Dick got increased when he became Batman/leading up to that.

Originally posted by Q99
By the time Tim got to be Red Robin pre-reboot, he was pretty good. Basically he was able to put his analytical mind to fighting.

Though on the flipside, Dick got increased when he became Batman/leading up to that.

Tim got the better of Dick when they last fought pre-boot, and that was when Dick was Batman.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Tim got the better of Dick when they last fought pre-boot, and that was when Dick was Batman.

Yeah, i'd like to see that fight.

Red robin 4 or 5 I think. I could be misremembering, but I'm fairly sure it ends with Tim's staff on Dick's windpipe.

The scans are in this thread.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/tim-drake-w-staff-vs-dick-grayson-unarmed-526308/

Thanks!

Yeah, that's a non-fight. Dick was trying to talk to him, Tim was the one fighting. Doesn't really count.

Originally posted by Q99
I do think around the top of the top tiers is when you start to see KK-esque stuff, it's just the degree increases.

Shiva, Cassandra, and similar can destroy stuff above their strength level. Shang Chi can take blows he shouldn't be able to take. Cass has judo-thrown bizarro (Linda) Supergirl.

The way I read it, KK's basically those techniques refined and improved over time. What used to be rare feats created only by rare users, became studyable moves, all pieced together to make them stronger and more reliable.

Also, he needs to not talk to you.

Ever.

Val's also internally consistant. Guy was established from day one as being able to fight Superboy on an even level.

Which is different from someone who spends their career at street level, becomes popular, and suddenly starts holding his own with guys that could level mountains and tank nukes.

Originally posted by Blair Wind
Meh. Damien has the MA skills, Tim's the detective, Grayson has the acrobatics/athletics, and Jason's just angry.

I still stand by my point. The Robins break up the MA tier system.

And nobody cares about Stephanie.

Originally posted by Golgo13
The scans are in this thread.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/tim-drake-w-staff-vs-dick-grayson-unarmed-526308/

Thanks, PM. 👆

Originally posted by cdtm
Val's also internally consistant. Guy was established from day one as being able to fight Superboy on an even level.

Which is different from someone who spends their career at street level, becomes popular, and suddenly starts holding his own with guys that could level mountains and tank nukes.

Originally posted by Mindset
Yup, Dick > Tim

Thanks, PM. 👆

Nah, Tim had him by the throat.

Dick's clearly the beta.

Clearly he wasnt holding back.

Originally posted by riv6672
Clearly he wasnt holding back.

Clearly. I'd go so far as to say he was bloodlusted. Look at the way he held Tim's arm. He either wanted blood or the D.

Dick's better than Bruce.

Better leader. Better acrobat.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Dick's better than Bruce.

Dick > Bruce > Jason >>>>>>>>> Damian > Alfred > The gardener > Tim