Originally posted by The Merchanthttp://www.turboimagehost.com/p/22147777/001.png.html
Anyone can post or at least give the source to Vader destroying an AT-ST?
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
[B]
And Savage had Maul with him. Didn't stop Sidious from stomping them without even taking them seriously.
That fight took several minutes and required him to split them up before he took them down.
And here? Both fighters are better than either of those two, *way* better than Savage.
Sidious being vastly faster than them, and having far better precognition and reflexes, the chances of him taking out a weak link before they read each other's mind to decide to combine their powers, are far greater.
Problem, range. At a distance, there's all the more time to react and defend against whatever he's throwing.
Precog should be an area of fairly small gap. Physical speed and precog are two different things, and Anakin has good precog. He's never had problem reacting to a fast person.
I'll note how Talzin + Maul was able to clash with Sidious at ranged force, and expected to win were it not for Dooku joining in.
Though, that would be a possibility if they had prep, plan ahead, and do it at the start, but in up close combat, it would be much more difficult, especially when they, individually, will be on constant guard to protect themselves from any form of attack Sidious will throw. In other words, for them to pull that off, would require very coordinated team work, which I don't see being the case with them.
Up close, they're both *very* good saber masters, it's their specialties, and Sidious needs to defend himself from heavy blows constantly while only using the strength of one arm in each block.
While a win is possible, if he can wound one of 'em early enough, it is a rough spot indeed and I do believe it favors the duo.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
DP stated that Darth Vader is seemingly portrayed as Sidious's equal based on that single showing. I wasn't comparing them to Vader. Vader has always been depicted as more powerful than Maul or Savage, and that's including their EU showings. Even if we restrict Sidious and Vader to canon only, Sidious domination over Maul and Savage simultaneously, and Dooku across the galaxy beats Vader's showing by far, as I doubt we'll see Vader replicate such domination over characters of such caliber.
Except, I'd say it's more impressive then either as it completely eclipses anything Maul/Savage or Dooku has done.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Where are you that from? Quote? Source?
There was a description from Lords of the Sith that made it sound like that. It sounded like that to a few people, but can't find it now. Will see when the book comes out now (next month).
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, Sidious casually dominating Maul and Savage simultaneously, and Dooku across the galaxy is still the best in terms of strict canon.
But Vader has the best "lifting" feat.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Mace's fodder team was irrelevant to Mace's victory over Sidious, so bad example.EDIT: Not sure why you'd even want to use Mace vs Sidious as an example for your argument. If Sidious crushes Vader's team that swiftly, Vader is done for. It would be a stomp.
Because I think they did effect the fight with Mace, given Sidious was dominating the beginning of that fight, so those first extra 7 seconds concentrating solely on Mace could have made the difference.
You think Sidious vs Vader 1 on 1 would be a Stomp? You don't think Sidious would beat him with difficulty?
Originally posted by Q99
That fight took several minutes and required him to split them up before he took them down.
By this logic, Krayt required dark transfer to beat Cade.
Originally posted by Q99
And here? Both fighters are better than either of those two, *way* better than Savage.
I'd like for you to prove this.
Maul is on par with Vader in terms of saber prowess.
Originally posted by Q99
Problem, range. At a distance, there's all the more time to react and defend against whatever he's throwing.
You do realize direct application of TK happens instantly? If Maul and Savage can't defend against it while it's being divided between them, then Malgus has no hope.
As far as lightning, peak Malgus (after he killed Aleema) got burned while blocking a lightning attack from Adraas, whose lightning doesn't even begin to compare to Sidious'. Sidious blasted Yoda's lightsaber right out of his hands, so I don't think Malgus's saber defense is good enough here.
Originally posted by Q99
Precog should be an area of fairly small gap. Physical speed and precog are two different things, and Anakin has good precog. He's never had problem reacting to a fast person.
Yeah, he's never fought anyone as fast as Sidious, and he's certainly not on par with Sidious speedwise, otherwise there'd had been no fight between him and Obi Wan. Obi Wan would go down to Sidious as easily as the B-team.
You only need slightly better precognition and be a great deal faster for it to matter.
Instead of just stating what you think, you need to back it up a bit more. You're argument basically: "these two are good fighters and powerful, and see Sidious fought Maul and Savage for several minutes; oh and these guys are strong."
Originally posted by Q99
I'll note how Talzin + Maul was able to clash with Sidious at ranged force, and expected to win were it not for Dooku joining in.
Talzin at the heart of her power is on par with Sidious evidently. Using her, especially at the heart of her nightsister power, is a bad example. Well, actually Sidious was powering through her lightning within a few panels until Maul joined in, and I don't remember anything implying they'd have overpowered him. The help of weakened Dooku, who was using only one hand was enough to kill them both once Talzin's shield was overpowered/down according to her.
Different scenario here, and I doubt Malgus would want to tangle with Sidious in a lightning contest. And we know Vader doesn't have lightning.
Originally posted by Q99
Up close, they're both *very* good saber masters, it's their specialties, and Sidious needs to defend himself from heavy blows constantly while only using the strength of one arm in each block.
He casually dealt with Savage's and Maul's strength without feeling the need to go all out and while enjoying himself. He won't have a problem here. And if he does, he can always resort to heavy force usage, something he didn't do against Maul and Savage, assuming he even allows them to get up close.
Sidious also blitzed through a team of *very* good saber masters, so you need to come up with something better.
Originally posted by Q99
While a win is possible, if he can wound one of 'em early enough, it is a rough spot indeed and I do believe it favors the duo.
Ok.
Originally posted by ares834
Except, I'd say it's more impressive then either as it completely eclipses anything Maul/Savage or Dooku has done.
Being far more impressive than them in TK isn't the same as being able to casually ragdoll them with it. Don't know how the new canon is going to depict power levels, but for all of Vader's raw TK feats in the old canon, he's never ragdolled two Maul level opponents at once or a Dooku level character from across the galaxy, whereas Sidious has done both very easily.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
There was a description from Lords of the Sith that made it sound like that. It sounded like that to a few people, but can't find it now. Will see when the book comes out now (next month).
No, it didn't. Not from what I recall.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But Vader has the best "lifting" feat.
He's always had better "lifting" feats than Sidious. Dooku, Maul and Savage do to.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Because I think they did effect the fight with Mace, given Sidious was dominating the beginning of that fight, so those first extra 7 seconds concentrating solely on Mace could have made the difference.
If they were instrumental in Mace's victory then Mace would have been on the winning end when they were present, or at least right after Sidious downed them, not a good minute later. I mean, they were probably instrumental in not getting Mace completely overwhelmed from the start, but nothing more than that.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You think Sidious vs Vader 1 on 1 would be a Stomp? You don't think Sidious would beat him with difficulty?
We're using EU, so yeah. Perhaps easier in canon since we don't know if Vader made adjustments to his suit for lightning defense. Even in a strict saber duel, Sidious would wear him down quite solidly.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Being far more impressive than them in TK isn't the same as being able to casually ragdoll them with it. Don't know how the new canon is going to depict power levels, but for all of Vader's raw TK feats in the old canon, he's never ragdolled two Maul level opponents at once or a Dooku level character from across the galaxy, whereas Sidious has done both very easily.
Kanan ragdolled the Inquisitor in their first encounter despite being inferior. Anyway, based solely on feats Vader should be able to do the same as Sidious did. Now, do I actually think he is capable of it? Probably not. But from a strictly feat perspective, Vader's appears superior.
Originally posted by ares834
Kanan ragdolled the Inquisitor in their first encounter despite being inferior. Anyway, based solely on feats Vader should be able to do the same as Sidious did. Now, do I actually think he is capable of it? Probably not. But from a strictly feat perspective, Vader's appears superior.
Kanan may very well be more powerful than the Inquisitor, but unfinished training may have prevented Kanan from doing so consistently with such feats being mostly dictated by circumstance. After all, Kanan seems quite powerful, and I haven't watched all of the episodes so I'm sure there are feats that I'm missing.
Judging from the TCW, the only time we see that level of dominance is if the force user is far superior than his/her opponent, or if a force user is in an unusual fit of rage and with a lot of strain (Ventress to Anakin/Kenobi; Savage to Dooku/Ventress). Yoda casually paralyzed Ventress while calm and holding a conversation with the king of Toydaria, whereas Anakin was only able to do so to Ventress while unleashing his anger, otherwise she holds her own against him quite well, even lands force attacks on him. The difference, Yoda's casual domination over her suggests he can do so any time without circumstance, whereas Anakin can only do so under certain circumstance, despite the fact that Anakin has the best TK feat in the series (toppling an underwater building).
We'll just have to see how new canon depicts Vader. I don't think we'll be seeing him easily tame Maul and Savage level force users, not casually and consistently anyway.
EDIT: SOD confirms Maul was intending to draw Sidious away from Corsuscant to fight him, so there is nothing to indicate he was taken off-guard, especially after Sidious entered the room so aggressively and gave Maul somewhat of a warning before he attacked. Regardless, Sidious did it more than once. Sidious wasn't catching them off-guard every time.
