Re: Re: Re: Religion of "peace" strikes again
Originally posted by Squirtle
Jeez I dunno... how about:
1-Al-Shabaab is an islamic group
2-"Student said he could hear them opening doors and asking if the people inside were Muslims or Christians, if you were a Christian you were shot on the spot."
So yes, this was religion motivated.
Originally posted by Squirtle
Muhammad is good enough for you?.From quran
surah 2 191-193: "kill them wherever you find them (...) And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (Alone)."surah 3 151: "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah." (christians are somewhat included as polytheists because of the trinity doctrine).
surah 8 12: " I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them."
surah 9 29: "Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book (jews and christians). "
From hadith
sahih bukhari 52: "The Prophet (...) was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (women and children) are from them (pagans)." (Yes. is perfectly fine to terror attack women and children in the name of allah!)muslim 1:"the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah."
Ibn Ishaq: "Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah."
and on and on... we can go all day on this
sources:
http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/
http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/nora/html/home.html
Have you read Holy Quran properly and are aware of the context behind these statements?
I guess not.
What about these?
[Quran: 7:199] ......You shall resort to pardon, advocate tolerance, and disregard the ignorant.
[Quran 6:151] "...... You shall not kill - GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. These are His commandments to you, that you may understand."
[Quran17:33] "You shall not kill any person - for GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. ....."
[Quran 5:32] "......, we decreed for the Children of Israel that anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people. And anyone who spares a life, it shall be as if he spared the lives of all the people. .............."
[Quran 2:256] "There shall be no compulsion in religion...".
[Quran 60:8]"GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable."
[Quran 8:61]"If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient."
[Quran 4:90]"...... Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them."
Source: http://www.islamology.com/Overview/Terrors/Isam&violence.htm
Quran represents a collection of revelations that relate to different events in the time of the referred prophet and some historic events. It is important to understand the context behind the revelations, and this is is only possible by properly understanding Quran.
Islam permits aggression only against those individuals who are Anti-Islamic and want to kill and/or oppress Muslims. Clear?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Religion of "peace" strikes again
Originally posted by Robtard
1) HYG, one from each I named and all KJ versions from biblegateway.com:-He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed. Exodus 22:20
-And they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and with all their soul, 13 but that whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman. Chronicles 15:12-13
-And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage Deuteronomy 13:10
The quotes you provided were regulations for the jewish people in a specific time period and an specific situation. In other words, they were narrations of history, not eternal commandments (like in the quran/hadith).
Originally posted by Robtard
2) So a "it's okay to conquer and kill when we do it" excuse. LoL! Seems like you're bashing Islam for being an overachiever.
Originally posted by Robtard
3) LoL! Did you not see the recent links Tzeen posted. Slavery and the wholesale mass murder of America's natives wasn't all that long ago in the big picture
Originally posted by Robtard
4) So? We're talking about Islam and Christianity. BTW, Israel is a massive human rights violator.
Originally posted by Robtard
5) Fearmongering 👆
Re: Re: Re: Re: Religion of "peace" strikes again
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Criminals can be religiously motivated, doesn't means that their actions are Islamic.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Oh, here comes the "selective quoting."Have you read Holy Quran properly and are aware of the context behind these statements?
I guess not.
What about these?
Nothing selective about them, can you post what context I left out? I can literally post pages and pages of stuff like that from both, quran and hadith, I can actually back up my claims, unlike you.
From your quotes, ALL were abrogated by medinan and later shurahs so there's no point at all on bringing them. You did know about it right? if so why you even bother quoting them? what was your intention?
I'l reply however to some of them, the more "juicy" ones if you like.
-5 is hillarious, as it was clearly directed at jews, not muslims. You are kidding me right?
-2 ahh the infamous "There shall be no compulsion in religion"! sadly like I said, it was abogated by LOTS of later surahs. Even one of the most respected, influential and brilliant scholars in muslim history said about this surah: "Therefore all people of the world should be called to Islam. If anyone of them refuses to do so, or refuses to pay the jizya, they should be fought till they are killed."
Even in mecca, later when he achieved power, the surah you quoted was abrogated with "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful." (9:5).
Just for a laugh, even from the same surah: ""And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion be only for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers." 😂
-60 cute isn't it? let's just all be BFF! too bad (you know where this go) it was told when the prophet was still weak on medina. Later in time it was abrogated with friendly surahs like:
"O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people." (5:51)
or "You will see many of them befriending those who disbelieve; certainly evil is that which their souls have sent before for them, that Allah became displeased with them and in chastisement shall they abide."
You do know for example, that muslim women are forbidden to marry non muslim men? http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-the-scholar/family/marriage/477357-can-a-muslim-girl-marry-a-christian-boy.html
If they do it, they can be killed under ISLAMIC law. Why do you think it is?
I'm still waiting for those evil, bloodthirsty jesus words on how should we deal with infidels, apostates, gays and women.
Btw, it was never my intention to "bash" islam, but saying jesus teachings and christian ideology is on the same moral ground that islam is a profoundly intellectually dishonest assertion. A very ignorant one even.
I'm not christian and as an agnostic my interest on this debate is really fading, I think I've proved my points, the links are there, the information is there.
Maybe I'll keep replying but for me at least, a debate is about seeking some form or better understanding, not about "being right" or biased fallacious argument to make a point. So far, I have no motivation to keep replying. Also is 3am here, good night.
Originally posted by Star428
By all means, FA, please list your sources that show modern so-called "Christians" murdering people on the scale that the muslims of today are doing.
It's true Christians don't. However, the God the Christians worship is a mass murderer on a scale that dwarfs ANYONE human in history. This is a creep who floods an entire planet because the people were "bad".
To be fair, he totally DID spare one dude and some animals so..yeah. He just killed everyone because he loves people so much he wanted them to come straight to heaven right away. Except for Noah because f*ck that guy, dude is a party pooper.
Like I said, religion is ultimately a subjective interpretation. There are terrible Christians out there as well, such as the WBC or Cromwell. Ultimately though, no one individual's or groups actions and represent an entire ideology.
That being stated, in comparison to Christianity, it is far more difficult to forgive Islam for the violence done in it's name. The reason for this goes back to subjective interpretation. The reason that some Christians and even the Pope are able to support gay rights is because although the OT contains much homophobia and other terrible acts, it can be interpreted that Jesus retconned it with the NT, so it is easily more palatable to modern day human rights. Islam is the exact opposite. Whereas the Pope, arguably the most prominent representative of Christianity, can support gay rights, the most prominent representatives of Islam are known as terrible human rights violators who have people imprisoned, tortured, and/or killed for even the slightest defiance of their beliefs or laws. Combined with the growing number of terror groups killing in it's name, some of which are allegedly funded by state officials, and it's no wonder that many are seeing Islam more of a cult than a religion.
Muslims are very quick to decry ISIS or Al Qaeda, but ask them about the human rights abuses of the Saudis and they'll try to give some kind of justification. Muslims need to stop ignoring this and start demanding international reformation on a government level to end the theocracies occurring in several nations, especially Saudi Arabia. Trying to strictly adhere to or justify the barbaric practices of the Koran all the time with no adaptation to modern human rights really paints the religion in a Jonestownian light.
NOTR: This is just my opinion based on personal experiences, including my dad, who is a Sufi Muslim
I get that freedom of religion is a thing, but I guess my problem is..it's one thing if a random person on the street believes in a crazy magic man in the sky. When our WORLD LEADERS believe this as well..it suddenly becomes pretty frightening.
We even have people who are in political positions who are creationists. That is scary, these people are in charge of making major decisions, yet they think dinosaurs and people f*cking lived together.
The Founding Fathers did not in any stretch of the imagination want religion and government to be this intertwined. It's kind of crazy to see all these people talking about how much they love America, yet don't seem to care that the original ideals for the country have been utterly obliterated. Even our currency, which should have nothing to do with religion, says "In God We Trust" on it.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Religion of "peace" strikes again
Originally posted by Squirtle
Did you read the context of those quotes? I'm going to say you didn't because they prove exactly what I said:
"One key difference between old testament writting and quran/hadith is that the first are close-ended, they describe actions within an specific historic and geographical context, most of the time even specific event related.
Islam teachins are open ended, true muslim should follow them till armageddon comes, till the end of times, or till all of earth is under islam."The quotes you provided were regulations for the jewish people in a specific time period and an specific situation. In other words, they were narrations of [B]history
, not eternal commandments (like in the quran/hadith).You are very dense, or just being obtuse. What has that to do with my point?
Of course every nation has blood on their hands in the seek of it's own territory. I'm exposing islam for the danger of it's violent, militant, political and supremacist aspect.
"Overarchiver"? so... and ideology that commads it's followers to fight (culturally and literally) infidels till islam is the only religion in the world is fine to you? nazism shared all those political aspects, I guess that ideology is ok too right? if not, why not?Did you not see my first replies on this thread? none of that is based on jesus teachings or ideology. Only politics and power, like 99% of the time in western history.
Secularism -in different aspects- was western trade mark since roman times and before, heck even constantine used religion only for his political goals, never really following it's ideology.You were the one putting bible and quran/hadith on the same moral ground. I posted empiric evidence of the contrast between those ideologies natures.
Life under islamic ideology is a testament of it's violent, supremacist, mysoginist and destructive nature. Is was like that +1400 years ago, it is like that now and it'll ever be like that.
Start another thread about bashing israel if you want, what you said doesn't contradict one iota of my point.You are not even trying do you?... if you are going to give this trollish reply instead of actually debating what I said with facts or serious information, please avoid "debating" me alltogheter. [/B]
-IOW: You don't understand the Bible. It's okay, many don't.
-Irony
-Jesus unheld the laws in the OT. Jesus was a Jew. The Bible has been used to support atrocities just the same by some. You're welcome 👆
-IOW: "My holy book is better than yours, now watch me prove it by cherry-picking scripts!" Both Jesus and I laugh at your futile attempts. LoL! BTW, you're the one who brought in Israel into the convo, silly.
-Correct, I don't really have to try when you're so awful at this with your blatant Bible ignorance, cherry-picking and silly fearmongering tactics. Which of the "islamisevil" sites are you copy-pasting your poor arguments from?
Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
I'm highly disturbed by some members who keep defending Islam like it's the most peaceful religion in the world (despite the fact that it's the complete opposite, ever since it was established.)Maybe some of you are linked to these ****ing terrorist groups.
Incorrect. It's not defending Islam, it's combating ignorance, fear-mongering and hatred wherever it rears its ugly misshapen head like a true hero 👆
Originally posted by Lestov16
Like I said, religion is ultimately a subjective interpretation. There are terrible Christians out there as well, such as the WBC or Cromwell. Ultimately though, no one individual's or groups actions and represent an entire ideology.That being stated, in comparison to Christianity, it is far more difficult to forgive Islam for the violence done in it's name. The reason for this goes back to subjective interpretation. The reason that some Christians and even the Pope are able to support gay rights is because although the OT contains much homophobia and other terrible acts, it can be interpreted that Jesus retconned it with the NT, so it is easily more palatable to modern day human rights. Islam is the exact opposite. Whereas the Pope, arguably the most prominent representative of Christianity, can support gay rights, the most prominent representatives of Islam are known as terrible human rights violators who have people imprisoned, tortured, and/or killed for even the slightest defiance of their beliefs or laws. Combined with the growing number of terror groups killing in it's name, some of which are allegedly funded by state officials, and it's no wonder that many are seeing Islam more of a cult than a religion.
Muslims are very quick to decry ISIS or Al Qaeda, but ask them about the human rights abuses of the Saudis and they'll try to give some kind of justification. Muslims need to stop ignoring this and start demanding international reformation on a government level to end the theocracies occurring in several nations, especially Saudi Arabia. Trying to strictly adhere to or justify the barbaric practices of the Koran all the time with no adaptation to modern human rights really paints the religion in a Jonestownian light.
NOTR: This is just my opinion based on personal experiences, including my dad, who is a Sufi Muslim
I know some people think that the issue is integral to Islam because the Qu'ran- allegedly dictated to someone who was illiterate by the direct voice of authority- is unquestionable, whilst The Bible- written in its own mythology by men- allows far more room for creative interpretation if need be.
I am unsure on that myself- Christianity has a long history of utter inflexibility of biblical interpretation leading to the most horrendous religious terrors. I don't think it was the basic tenets that made any difference.
What has changed is simply the growth of humanistic/secular values. From the Renaissance onwards, Christian authority has been constantly questioned in the west by philosophers (both within and without the Church) and compared to external ideas of right, wrong and the way to find truth, and religion has changed accordingly, both in how it acts and how it is viewed. The hardcore have retreated to their own enclaves; the general attitude has become more and more mild as the search for human rights goes on.
Take, for example, some of the commentary the Church of England made about the legalising of same sex marriage which, no matter which way we put it, cannot possibly be justified on biblical grounds. They are not openly abandoning the Biblical position- indeed, they re-affirm its truth- but they are contorting so strongly to reconcile both views that it is impossible to link this Church to the one of the past where the Biblical vision would never have been questioned and compared in such a way. For example:
As members of the Body of Christ we are aware that there will be a range of responses across the Church of England to the introduction of same sex marriage. As bishops we have reflected and prayed together about these developments. As our statement of 27th January indicated, we are not all in agreement about every aspect of the Church's response. However we are all in agreement that the Christian understanding and doctrine of marriage as a lifelong union between one man and one woman remains unchanged.
We are conscious that within both Church and society there are men and women seeking to live faithfully in covenanted same sex relationships. As we said in our response to the consultation prior to the same sex marriage legislation, "the proposition that same sex relationships can embody crucial social virtues is not in dispute. Same sex relationships often embody genuine mutuality and fidelity…., two of the virtues which the Book of Common Prayer uses to commend marriage. The Church of England seeks to see those virtues maximised in society".
This is amazing stuff really- they are saying that this new definition of marriage directly contradicts the Bible- but we're not going to oppose it in society and indeed want to see how it may be beneficial.
This refers back to the quote given by Richard Dawkins earlier, when he called Christanity- in fact, he was particularly referring to Anglicanism- relatively benign. For that sort of Church (and there are plenty of Christian churches not like this), the Bible has now become a general guidebook and not the final word; They might not admit this but it is practically the case- they are working out their own new approaches to morality and right and wrong.
But again, I don't think this is endemic to Christianity. It's endemic to the history of Western society that has gone through this constant process of scepticism, questioning and re-evaluation of even the basic principles by which we live, and the CofE has responded in kind.
For whatever reason, this historical process has not been gone through in a lot of traditionally Muslim countries- and I do not think that Islam is the cause; its current state is merely one of the symptoms. We can see, meanwhile, in Africa, where this scepticism process has also not been rigorously applied (which I would put down to the crappy state colonial countries left Africa in) we are much more likely to see hardline, murdering Christians. Meanwhile, look at Turkey. Whilst it certainly has its challenges- particularly with free speech- Turkey is a country which has gone through a secular process of self-questioning, and hence there is virtually no connection between its Muslim populace and extremism, some fringe groups aside. Indeed, Turkey is the west's vital ally; not in a realpolitik type fashion as with Saudi Arabia, but because their world view genuinely aligns with ours. Turkey itself is currently re-running the argument about the role Islam should play in its society, which is troubling, but at least they had the argument in the first place.
So- I don't think Islam is intrinsically more given to this sort of thing than Christianity is, as Christianity can (and has) been used in just as bad a way (and there are definite times in history where Islam was being applied in a far more forgiving and tolerant manner than Christianity). The problem is people and cultures; Islam is just the vehicle through which some of these issues are currently being focussed.
There is no point blaming Islam- it won't get us anywhere. What we need is an exceptionally slow and patient process of the general encouragement of human rights and liberal values that will slowly undermine all forms of extremism. At this point in history, that brings us into conflict with Islam more than many other things, but that is mere correlation.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Religion of "peace" strikes again
Originally posted by Robtard
-IOW: You don't understand the Bible. It's okay, many don't.-Irony
-Jesus unheld the laws in the OT. Jesus was a Jew. The Bible has been used to support atrocities just the same by some. You're welcome 👆
-IOW: "My holy book is better than yours, now watch me prove it by cherry-picking scripts!" Both Jesus and I laugh at your futile attempts. LoL! BTW, you're the one who brought in Israel into the convo, silly.
-Correct, I don't really have to try when you're so awful at this with your blatant Bible ignorance, cherry-picking and silly fearmongering tactics. Which of the "islamisevil" sites are you copy-pasting your poor arguments from?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Religion of "peace" strikes again
Originally posted by Squirtle
Haha yeah you teach me troll! againg not debating any point and just throwing your fallacies... why did I waist time with you? why I'm still doing it? not anymore, to ignore you go.
IOW: You still can't refute a point I've made and you're unable to fortify your own points and position, so you accuse me of your own shortcomings while running away like a coward 👆
ps "again" and "waste" are the words you're looking for.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
I know some people think that the issue is integral to Islam because the Qu'ran- allegedly dictated to someone who was illiterate by the direct voice of authority- is unquestionable, whilst The Bible- written in its own mythology by men- allows far more room for creative interpretation if need be.I am unsure on that myself-
Why are you unsure, please tell me:
How can we study an ideology?
Are they all the same?
If they are not the same, why? how do we know?
Relativism can only get you so far in the real world. Not all ideologies are the same, as not all religions are the same. Islam is unique in it's political and militant dimension.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
There is no point blaming Islam- it won't get us anywhere. What we need is an exceptionally slow and patient process of the general encouragement of human rights and liberal values that will slowly undermine all forms of extremism. At this point in history, that brings us into conflict with Islam more than many other things, but that is mere correlation.
Yes there is, recognizing the problem is the very first step for reforming and fixing it. You can't just ignore the reality behind "the religion of peace" and hope that... magically all will go well in the end, while piles of corpses keep growing and half of our species keeps being treated as subhuman sexmachines.
Your wishful thinking is well intended but ultimately futile as it ignores some important aspects:
-the ideological nature of islam, very unique and very different than all the others main religions.
-the political dimension of islam, again very very unique.
So, in +1400 years nothing has changed because of this ideology being written in stone, but you hope for magical change?
Can you read valmiki, lao tse, gautama, jesus teachings... compare them to the hadith and tell me they are on same moral ground for human values?
Even completely ignoring the theoretical aspects (why would we do that?) when studying an ideology, let's focus on empirical evidence: list all the terror groups based on their teachings (valmiki, lao tse, gautama, jesus) till this day, so we can make a list comparing that to islam based ones till this day.