Religion of "peace" strikes again

Started by Ushgarak13 pages

Well, looking a squirtle's long glut of text there- though honestly, breaking up your argument into tiny quote chunks really does make it awkward to follow and weak.

Your main thrust remains rooted in that non sequitur. You keep trying this line that nothing is relevant unless it can be directly linked to what a so-called holy book says in its support. Like I said, I am only interested in behaviour, not some academic debate about what the books mean. Completely irrelevant to your opinion, Christian ideology simply was used in the justification of brutal acts throughout history. You can;t see this was 'false' Christianity because it was ALL of it- this was the organisation 'Christianity' that the world recognised. They would say you are wrong and non-Christian in your interpretation of the Bible. You can argue back against that as much as you like- it makes not one jot of difference to how they behaved and what they did. And to be honest, the interpretation at the time that 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' as only applying to Christians (though even there they didn't follow it up) is no more absurd on interpretation grounds than dumping all that stuff about killing homosexuals or adulterous women and the like in the modern day. The Inquisition saw the torture and horrific abuse of enemies of the Church as a fundamental expression of the love of Christ- what they saw as love is different to what Christians generally do now. Your obsession with referring back to the dogma makes you incapable of recognising the realities of history and this debate- values lay in the interpretation of the time. That IS what Christianity was like back then, regardless of what the Bible does and does not say. You can't divorce the Crusades from Christianity- they are the primary representation of the time It doesn't matter what the Bible and Quran say. That's a useless obsession. What matters is the meaning people saw and see in it, and why. The ideology is not in the book- it is in the minds of the people.

And then, as pointed out, Christianity changed over time in response to social/cultural upheaval from the renaissance onwards. But it didn't change because of anything the Bible said- it already said what it said and that didn't stop anyone killing in Christianity's name. Christianity changed because of social upheaval not actually connected to religion itself- indeed, in most cases founded on the challenging of religion. If Islam had gone through the same process, it would be in the same place today It didn't, but that was nothing to do with Islam itself. It is the way history panned out.

Writing off Christian-based violence to politics and power- but denying that same excuse to Islamic countries- is absurd cognitive dissonance. Meanwhile, 'three centuries' is just something you made up; the Christian violence was constant. It;s also impressive that you put all that effort into talking about Bibles being banned (actually only done in particular locations and points of time, not a general approach) as some sort of way of excusing the Bible itself, but again do not extend that courtesy to the Qu'ran, the vast majority of whose adherents could not read. All anyone was ever doing was going off what people told them in those days, and on all sides anything was manipulated for effect. For example, militant Qu'ran expansionists were never told that the Qu'ran specifically forbids forced conversion (indeed, there was an example of uneducated African Islamic terrorists in prison who are equally taken aback today when informed of this- the manipulation goes on) and goes out of its way to state that to you, your religion, to me, mine. This is all just part of a broad picture of religious authority of any type being shaped as necessary, Christian or Islam alike.

Meanwhile, of course Islam also showed intolerance at times (aside from anything else, it was an age of intolerance from humanity in general, so this can only ever be a relative judgement), but quite famously during the times of the Crusades they were astonishingly tolerant in the Holy Land itself, compared to Christian genocidal approaches. Islamic cultures have never been big on personal representations in visual arts but your claim that only the medieval west showed artistic achievement is laughably absurd. Far more Jews were persecuted by Christians than Muslims.

You must move away from this obsession with Biblical text. It is the interpretation and use of religion that is important and relevant- and what you say the Bible means is far from definitive; what you say a 'true' Christian is, likewise. Modern Christianity will keep deviating from that text also, just in morally positive ways- like gay marriage and the ordination of women. Getting into some particular 'what does the Bible literally say?' war is the provenance of baiting atheists looking for a fight or academic/irrelevant discussion within Christianity itself, a kind of petty point scoring exercise in pedanticism that does not actually produce any answers or evidence.. Like I say, increasingly it is just a guidebook, not the source of truth, and so it can be for the Qu'ran. What is or is not Christian/Islamic is NOT down to what (you think) the books say. It is down to how its adherents behave. The book is just a book. It is exactly the same, incidentally, when analysing Marxism or any ideology. Heck, there are almost no Marxists now that base their ideology on Marx's work- it has developed since then. To judge a Marxist ideology, you judge them on their beliefs and actions. If you tried to judge them based on Marx's original work, you'd get it totally wrong. You need to have some semblance of context and nuance in your analyses. It really is lacking.

In short, you have let this myopic focus of yours distract you from the actual reality. That being so, it's left you unable to engage in the actual argument here. But that said, you still throw around spurious phrases like 'no reasoning needed, just evidence'. You need to take a good, long think about what reasoning is and why it has value- especially in matters philosophical like this. Again, all my relevant backing for what I say is in my previous posts.

In the end, we understand the ideology much better than you do- because you've obsessed yourself with the wrong thing. You need to take a step back and start again. I suspect your actual motivation here is that you just really want Christianity to be intrinsically better, but that's a skewed viewpoint. From an objective view, there's no reason to think that and history bears that out. It's really about humans and cultural development; religion is just another tool that gets used. Christianity has gone further down that development in modst modern cultures than Islam has in most of if its cultures, but the culture trumps the religion. And the ultimate logic, in the end, is that Christianity and Islam alike will become merely historical curiosities. It will happen to Christianity first if the modern day is anything to judge by. Anglicanism is already developing itself out of existence.

And so- back to my point. Islam has a big problem today- but not because of what it is, because of the way history has developed in cultures associated with Islam. It would be the same way regardless of their religion; you could swap The Bible and the Qu'ran and be in pretty much the same place today, because the same process that made the West question and re-interpret the Bible would have done the same to the Qu'ran. We can see evidence in this in Islamic countries that have moved away from dogma showing the same sort of development as many Christian countries, and in Christian cultures that have not moved away from dogma that are just as bad as the worst Muslim areas.

So by attacking Islam directly as the problem, all we do is alienate much of the world and prolong the issue. If we instead encourage by diplomacy and good example about this vital cultural counter-balance needed to religion that caused it to become questioned and altered, the Islamic problem would solve itself. Human rights and progressive political and philosophical thought is the answer, but it is a slow process.

So, fight for human rights. Oppose abuses of women in many Islamic cultures; oppose the outrageous treatment of homosexuals. But do the same in Christian countries with the same issues. We confront the behaviour, not get bogged down in a fake ideological war based on irrelevant textual obsession. That is the way for humanity to progress.

Originally posted by Star428
[B]LOL. I've already responded to blasphemous posts like this in the religion forum. God has never MURDERED anyone, dude. There is a huge difference between cleansing the earth of guilty sinners and starting over fresh and killing someone without cause. Killing does not automatically equal murder. Look up the definitions in the dictionary, moron.

LOL dude, saying gods name in vain is a SIN. Even thinking about screwing another mans wife is a sin. Please continue to sit there and say killing anyone guilty of sin is not murder and just a "cleansing".

But okay, how about this: one day you disobey mommy and daddy. They tell you to make your bed and you totally don't. I then kill you because of that. Well, I'm no murderer right? Just cleansing sinners and whatnot, since you totally sinned by disobeying your parents. I'm glad I could help you to never sin again. I'm sure God will high five me for ridding your evil from the planet, right? How do you think Satan punishes the mom and daddy disobeyers?

Also wait, wasn't there a story in the bible about Jesus disobeying his parents when they told him not to go to temple and he went anyways? Then again would that count? Since Jesus is supposed to be his own kid, right? So technically his only parents are himself so he doesn't have to really care what Mary or Joseph say. Oh that Jesus, he loves his loopholes.

Originally posted by Squirtle
Why? why there is no point on debating if socialist ideology is better than maoist?
Why there is no point on debating if radical sects are better than budhism???

No, there is no point. This isn't some competition.

Criticize what it's bad on the practice and move on from abstract shadows. Debating in strict ideas won't change anything and won't help anyone understand how things work. Is a tiresome and pointless exercise.

Originally posted by Squirtle
What's the difference? an idea could be debated to see how good or bad it is, religious ideologies are ideas corpuses and frameworks and can be debated the same way.??

Morality changes depending on the culture, good and bad are passing things. Corpuses are interpreted, switched, transvestised. You can debate on ideas and concepts as long as you're willing to change your preconceptions and definitions.

Arguing to reach a definition is fighting a losing battle, such is the nature of language, it's a convention and if you need to define too thinly you're using it wrong.

Originally posted by Squirtle
...anyways, I'm not able to invest more time on this thread, hope the information I've posted was interesting at least, cheers!

It's a wise decision one way or another, there isn't a debate to be had in these poor dispositions.

Originally posted by Ushgarak

You keep trying this line that nothing is relevant unless it can be directly linked to what a so-called holy book says in its support. Like I said, I am only interested in behaviour, not some academic debate about what the books mean.

Completely irrelevant to your opinion, Christian ideology simply was used in the justification of brutal acts throughout history. You can;t see this was 'false' Christianity because it was ALL of it- this was the organisation 'Christianity' that the world recognised. They would say you are wrong and non-Christian in your interpretation of the Bible.

You can argue back against that as much as you like- it makes not one jot of difference to how they behaved and what they did ...

You CAN say the Catholic Church was, and is, false Christianity.

The 10 minute to 12 minute 48 second mark of the following video addresses why this is so in detail; I can give a summary for anyone to wary of YouTube to click this link:

https://www.youtube.com/user/paden981?v=blYqM4HaWdw

What you're saying is not true, either. It is adherence to the teachings of Christ, confession that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and the faithful following of the commands written in the Gospels that determine if one is a Christian.

You can CALL other programs or things "Christian", but merely saying that does not make it so, anymore than declaring yourself, as opposed to Barack Obama, POTUS, makes you, in fact, the President of the United States of America.

In point of fact, the Bible itself makes a distinction between "world recognition" and authentic Christianity.

We can also look at how crazy and petty the first four of the ten commandments make this "God" look. Here is my problem with going on about God cleansing "sinners". I can sum up the first four commandments: don't believe in other gods besides him, don't say his name in vain, keep holy the sabbath day because god rested on that day so you have to rest as well or you deserve execution(this is in the bible), and finally: obey your parents.

The final one looks good on paper right, obey your parents? After all, your parents DO deserve your respect and love. However, what is God? Don't Christians call him their "father" ? Since how does the phrase "our father who art in heaven" make any sense if they don't feel God is their true father? So in other words, the thing about honoring your parents is just another roundabout way for God to tell you to obey HIM. Isn't that disturbing? That's some Big Brother type stuff, not signs of a benevolent deity who loves us unconditionally.

My final point is: dude makes it a point to say not worshiping him is a sin. Yet rape? Pedophilia? Racism? Totally not worth mentioning, but I'll be damned if you don't keep holy that Sabbath(or rather, YOU will be damned).

Originally posted by Surtur

dude makes it a point to say not worshiping him is a sin. Yet rape? Pedophilia? ... Totally not worth mentioning ...

The two items I quoted from you above ARE mentioned in the Bible.

There's a whole page someone devoted to answering the first:
http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-rape.html

As for pedophilia:

Ephesians 5 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

5 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; 2 and walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. 3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Matthew 18 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

18 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? 2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, 3 and said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. 6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

no matter how many times you re-package that 'no true scotsman' fallacy, it will never become true.

Originally posted by Bashar Teg

no matter how many times you re-package that 'no true scotsman' fallacy, it will never become true. sorry.

I don't think this false objection of yours will survive sustained examination.

Despite being anti-religious, even Rational Wiki has the following to say:

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Broadly speaking, the fallacy does NOT apply if there is a clear and well understood definition of what membership in a group requires and it is that definition which is broken (e.g., "no honest man would lie like that!", "no Christian would worship Satan!" and so on).

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Even Richard Dawkins seems able to recognize the Christian religion is more peaceful than the Islamic one. It's something when even Christianity's biggest opponent recognizes that ...

The religion itself is not more peaceful. It's followers just happen to be at this point in time because they already went through the human rights violation phase long ago, and in some places still are.

ergo, there are zero "true Christians", because man is flawed and every Christian at one point has done something not in line with Christianity.

Glad we cleared that up 👆

'True Christians' only seem to be able to detect that particular fallacy when it's applied as an excuse for atrocities committed in the name of islam.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
The two items I quoted from you above ARE mentioned in the Bible.

There's a whole page someone devoted to answering the first:
http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-rape.html

As for pedophilia:

[b]Ephesians 5 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

5 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; 2 and walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. 3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Matthew 18 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

18 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? 2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, 3 and said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. 6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. [/B]

You misunderstand, I meant that the rape and pedophilia totally weren't worth mentioning in the 10 commandments. 4 rules coddling a petty jealous God? Check! See, God's rules regarding stupid silly crap like saying his name in vain? Those are the petty things I should have to hunt down to find.

In other words it seems God, who supposedly loves us unconditionally, is more concerned with how we treat him then how we treat each other. Life must be rough for an immortal all powerful divine being. It's a hard knock life indeed.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
neither ... effeminate

So you can go to hell for not acting manly? Um.....what a peaceful religion? 😕

Originally posted by Lestov16
So you can go to hell for not acting manly? Um.....what a peaceful religion? 😕

"neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting"

Even some shit-talking and joking around nets you an eternity of suffering.

Originally posted by Robtard
nor foolish talking

Well, there goes Star's entrance to heaven

Maybe he'll convert to Islam.

Is it all about oil?

Originally posted by Surtur
You misunderstand, I meant that the rape and pedophilia totally weren't worth mentioning in the 10 commandments. 4 rules coddling a petty jealous God? Check! See, God's rules regarding stupid silly crap like saying his name in vain? Those are the petty things I should have to hunt down to find.

You shall not kill seems to include general physical and psychological violence as far as theology goes.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
America has supported terrorism too in the past, but you'd say we're trustworthy, wouldn't you?

America?

No, America is a country.

The US Government, is it trust worthy? Really depends what we are talking about.

Since they spy on everyone, no, the US Government is not trustworthy. They are very dishonest and very very evil if we think of this from a spying.

But in some ways, we are the most charitable nation (if we go by pure aid numbers, not a per capita basis).

My overall opinion is that the US Government is not trustworthy. We are bullies that spy on everyone. I want to stop that.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I don't think this false objection of yours will survive sustained examination.

Despite being anti-religious, even Rational Wiki has the following to say:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Broadly speaking, the fallacy does NOT apply if there is a clear and well understood definition of what membership in a group requires and it is that definition which is broken (e.g., "no honest man would lie like that!", "no Christian would worship Satan!" and so on).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Even Richard Dawkins seems able to recognize the Christian religion is more peaceful than the Islamic one. It's something when even Christianity's biggest opponent recognizes that ...

There is no "clear and well understood definition" of what a "true Christian" is, otherwise there wouldn't be over a billion Catholics referring to themselves as Christians.

I'm not sure why you keep throwing Richard Dawkins thoughts on Christianity around. I don't think anyone in this discussion gives a shit about Richard Dawkins or what he has to say about this subject.