Originally posted by Blue Area VetIt's not convenient. It's just an utterly unextraordinary fact that basically applies to almost every single superhero and, therefore, a completely worthless observation when discussing most matchups.
Sups subconsciously holding back, what a convenient crock of shit.
Originally posted by ODGIt only applies to hero's that don't kill, are significantly more powerful than their combatant, and most importantly hero's that subconsciously (not consciously ) holds back.
It's not convenient. It's just an utterly unextraordinary fact that basically applies to almost every single superhero and, therefore, a completely worthless observation when discussing most matchups.
Thor, Hulk, Spidey, etc. all hold back consciously. Thor even kills at times.
Finally, Superman became more than 5 times more powerful when he unleashes. And had many years learning how to not injure weak humans with simple gestures.
I'll give you Superman having a proven mental block, as of his fight with the first post crisis Bizarro Superman when he thinks "Blast! I've fallen into the habit of pulling my punches!"
Don't see how it's relevant, though. Whether it's by ethical choice or "world of cardboard" syndrome, the fact is they all hold back in character, except in the most extreme circumstances.
Originally posted by cdtmThere are many cases of Thor not holding back when he is offended or when he is at battle. He has killed many times. Same as wolverine and many other heroes. Surfer has even unleashed a few times and killed. I'm not saying that heroes don't SOMETIMES hold back, but rather Superman always hold back against weaker beings, both consciously and subconsciously. Other heroes who hold back only do it consciously when it is explicitly stated. If it is not stated or obviously shown then it is not the case. Superman's holding back was retconned as always and subconsciously. Others weren't. Hell, it took meditation and training for Superman to learn how to unleash. Other heroes can unleash at will.
I'll give you Superman having a proven mental block, as of his fight with the first post crisis Bizarro Superman when he thinks "Blast! I've fallen into the habit of pulling my punches!"Don't see how it's relevant, though. Whether it's by ethical choice or "world of cardboard" syndrome, the fact is they all hold back in character, except in the most extreme circumstances.
Thor actually has examples of explicitly stating he holds back most of the time, even against physical "peers", and even if it meant defeat.
Spidey developed his own "World of Cardboard" syndrome when he beat Sin Eater so badly, he left him crippled for life, and was given a detailed rundown of his shot nerves, broken spine, punctured organs.. I doubt he could stop holding back against a street leveler any more then Superman could against everybody else.
But the main point, is no hero who normally holds back is going all out against another hero. Even Wolverine won't try and kill, say, Capain America or Spidey, regardless of his willingness to kill villains.
Just because Cap was told not to hold back, doesn't mean he was hitting Superman as hard as he could and risk killing him.
Originally posted by h1a8
There are many cases of Thor not holding back when he is offended or when he is at battle. He has killed many times. Same as wolverine and many other heroes. Surfer has even unleashed a few times and killed. I'm not saying that heroes don't SOMETIMES hold back, but rather Superman always hold back against weaker beings, both consciously and subconsciously. Other heroes who hold back only do it consciously when it is explicitly stated. If it is not stated or obviously shown then it is not the case. Superman's holding back was retconned as always and subconsciously. Others weren't. Hell, it took meditation and training for Superman to learn how to unleash. Other heroes can unleash at will.
Originally posted by cdtmthat's what I said. Thor only holds back when the comic explicitly states so. Other times he doesn't, especially when someone makes him mad or offends him.
Thor actually has examples of explicitly stating he holds back most of the time, even against physical "peers", and even if it meant defeat.Spidey developed his own "World of Cardboard" syndrome when he beat Sin Eater so badly, he left him crippled for life, and was given a detailed rundown of his shot nerves, broken spine, punctured organs.. I doubt he could stop holding back against a street leveler any more then Superman could against everybody else.
But the main point, is no hero who normally holds back is going all out against another hero. Even Wolverine won't try and kill, say, Capain America or Spidey, regardless of his willingness to kill villains.
Just because Cap was told not to hold back, doesn't mean he was hitting Superman as hard as he could and risk killing him.
Superman doesn't need to be explained to be holding back since it is retconned that he always does this subconsciously.
We are merely guessing if we assume a random hero is holding back against another hero without being explicitly told. These characters don't exist. The only thing that exist is the mind of the writer and his intentions. Writers are usually clear with their intentions. They are experts at storytelling and getting the audience to know whatever they want them to know.
"Thor only holds back when the comic says so" is NOT what I said.
More, Thor went out of his way to not hold back in one specific example. The Avengers were shocked at how easily he defeated a foe, noting he's struggled with far less, to the point of being defeated.
Which is because Thor holds back by default.
Originally posted by cdtm
"Thor only holds back when the comic says so" is NOT what I said.More, Thor went out of his way to not hold back in one specific example. The Avengers were shocked at how easily he defeated a foe, noting he's struggled with far less, to the point of being defeated.
Which is because Thor holds back by default.
1. Post scans of this or issue numbers
2. Thor has killed or tried to kill for silly shit. Just because someone pissed him off or said some offensive shit to him.
3. He doesn't hold back when someone is threatening Asgard. He's killed many invaders whether they were weak or strong. He's killed Giants, monsters, etc. He's killed in normal battle as well. He's a horrible example to use to show that heroes hold back.
Originally posted by cdtmthat's because of plot. Has nothing to do with someone holding back. If a comic doesn't explicitly state that someone is holding back then they arent. Otherwise we are making shit up. It's all about writer's intentions, not real life.
And heros don't usually kill other heroes, either.Lobo, for instance, is no hero.
Anyway I already said heroes sometimes hold back. But not all the time and certainly not subconsciously (unless stated).
Originally posted by iceman24567no one ever said that Thor doesn't hold back sometimes as explained by the comics. Everyone knows that. Next time you want to contribute make sure you know what the discussion is about. The discussion is about whether other heroes hold back as frequently and in the same manner as Superman does (unconsciously ).
Except Thor does hold back.....Its been like that for sometime 😬
Originally posted by h1a8
that's because of plot. Has nothing to do with someone holding back. If a comic doesn't explicitly state that someone is holding back then they arent. Otherwise we are making shit up. It's all about writer's intentions, not real life.Anyway I already said heroes sometimes hold back. But not all the time and certainly not subconsciously (unless stated).
With that said, Superman doesn't hold back. Just like you said, it's based off the writer. Just because one writer said something about Superman doesn't make it official. Ain't that right H1?
Originally posted by carver9according to kmc retconns are valid. I went up against some posters here who argued a retcon over another writer's intentions. I lost the argument. So basically I don't like retconns over writer's intentions but i have to accept them since they were dealt to me in a different thread. I'm not about to get sandwiched on both sides though. Whatever the rule, we ALL should go by it.
With that said, Superman doesn't hold back. Just like you said, it's based off the writer. Just because one writer said something about Superman doesn't make it official. Ain't that right H1?
So Superman has subconscious mental blocks due to the retcon. Otherwise OWAW and DOS wouldn't make any sense.