Increase in exorcism demand ascribed to 'Pope Francis' effect

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Proof doesn't matter to you?

Exorcism is barbaric. Many times people who are mentally ill are denied proper medical care for the equivalent of witch doctors performing ceremonies.

All I want is a little proof. Otherwise it just doesn't fly.

Apologies, Star, just wanted to finish this particular back and forth. Subject dropped.

As to the topic, if anyone can see an upside for the church in this direction, i'd like to hear it. I cant really think of anything that outweighs giving more ammunition to nay sayers.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Proof doesn't matter to you?

Exorcism is barbaric. Many times people who are mentally ill are denied proper medical care for the equivalent of witch doctors performing ceremonies.

All I want is a little proof. Otherwise it just doesn't fly.

You surely know that the Catholic Church only practices exorcism in cases where the psychological method has been throughly exhausted and in which external elements push you into a context of supernatural happenings (as the very article on top said, ancient languages are spoken, etc.).

They have documentation proving that the psychologists failed to heal the patient too and that drugs prove to be inefective, it cannot be accessed by the public because medical information is private. Again, this doesn't prove demons exist or that exorcism helped anyone, but muddles the Church vs science angle you imply in your post.

The Catholic Church is aware psychological problems exist, psychologists are aware that some mental illnesses are better threated by faith than science. Let's not live in a "modern" world of prejudice shall we? 👆

Originally posted by riv6672
Nice.
Shaky, you pretty much post the same way in every well visited thread.
You turn a good back and forth, between people of differing beliefs into you vs them/your beliefs are all false/show me proof.
Thats not an opinion, its fact.
It brings down threads for no better reason than, i think, to stroke your own ego.
Just pointing it out, not telling you to stop.
You undermine your own credibility.

Apologies, Star, just wanted to finish this particular back and forth. Subject dropped.

As to the topic, if anyone can see an upside for the church in this direction, i'd like to hear it. I cant really think of anything that outweighs giving more ammunition to nay sayers.

How does attacking me answer my question?
You didn't further any discussion. All you did was attack. You are a troll. You are the one causing the problem.

Now go away!!!

Originally posted by Bentley
You surely know that the Catholic Church only practices exorcism in cases where the psychological method has been throughly exhausted and in which external elements push you into a context of supernatural happenings (as the very article on top said, ancient languages are spoken, etc.).

Originally posted by Bentley
They have documentation proving that the psychologists failed to heal the patient too and that drugs prove to be inefective, it cannot be accessed by the public because medical information is private. Again, this doesn't prove demons exist or that exorcism helped anyone, but muddles the Church vs science angle you imply in your post.

Originally posted by Bentley
The Catholic Church is aware psychological problems exist, psychologists are aware that some mental illnesses are better threated by faith than science. Let's not live in a "modern" world of prejudice shall we? 👆

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Even if people could spontaneously speak in ancient languages that they should never have known, that doesn’t prove that the person was possessed by a demon. Perhaps they were remembering a past life. It is more likely that the accounts are flawed and exaggerated.

It doesn’t change the fact that there is no proof of demons.

When all else fails, the placebo effect can be very profound. But that doesn’t mean that demons go around possessing people.
Perhaps you are prejudice against scientific principles.

I was replying to your shouts about barbarism or Dark ageism that were, in the context, unwarranted. That's all.

Feel free to jump to every religious thread asking for (impossible?) proof, you're free to do so 👆

Ah, well, i tried.

Anyhow, what does the church hope to gain here, really? Anyone have a theory, or read anything?

Guys, could we not knock shaky for bringing his questions in here? You don't have to reply to them but he is on-topic and bringing a relevant view, and you have no place criticising that.

Oookay, this is strange. Apparently its sort of the Pope's fault that the need for exorcisms has been on the rise.

...but those tempted to pigeonhole the former Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio as a 21st-century social worker, more interested in justice than religious mumbo-jumbo, have been given a wake-up call this week. A gathering of Catholic exorcists at the Pontifical University of Regina Apostolorum in Rome has highlighted a darker aspect of the “Francis effect”. He has prompted a rise in the number of Catholics who believe themselves possessed by the Devil.
The cause and effect is clear. Unlike all his recent predecessors, who seemingly preferred to talk about anything but the Devil, Pope Francis is constantly mentioning he, who, in modern Catholicism, must not be named. So, for example, he has told a delegation of Mexicans that the drug wars in their country were down to the Devil’s influence, blamed the conflicts in the Middle East on Satan, and in a sermon last June, poured scorn on those who urge him to stick to speaking up for the marginalized...

There's more to it, interesting reading too. Excerpt above. Link below.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/exorcism-what-does-the-boom-in-demand-tell-us-about-pope-franciss-catholic-church-10176776.html

Originally posted by riv6672
Oookay, this is strange. Apparently its sort of the Pope's fault that the need for exorcisms has been on the rise.

There's more to it, interesting reading too. Excerpt above. Link below.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/exorcism-what-does-the-boom-in-demand-tell-us-about-pope-franciss-catholic-church-10176776.html

I think the relationship established is interesting.

If we name the devil then he becomes more active in possessions. From a psychological point of view it makes all kinds of sense, it could be that the mentions themselves are ingrained into the believers and they become more compelled to act as if they were possessed. However, that assumes that people who get possessed are actually hearing and paying attention to what the Pope is currently saying, the same influence should happen when any public figure, religious or moral, established this kind of speech about the devil.

Anyways, from a believers point of view, how would you find a rationale behind these possessions -assuming they actually happen and that there is an actual relationship between the statements or what not-.

Anyways, from a believers point of view, how would you find a rationale behind these possessions -assuming they actually happen and that there is an actual relationship between the statements or what not-.

As i'm not the most well spoken person on religious matters, i'll fall back on a quote.
"I dont do evil things because i believe in the devil. I believe in the devil because i do evil things."

To a mentally ill person, that statement provide a kind of sick rationale for
Their actions/problems.
Something thats overlooked here is the psychological training these specialists have.
The rituals, imagery etc. of the church are just one set of tools in their tool bag they can use to help these people.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Proof doesn't matter to you?

Exorcism is barbaric. Many times people who are mentally ill are denied proper medical care for the equivalent of witch doctors performing ceremonies.

All I want is a little proof. Otherwise it just doesn't fly.

i do agree with this but (and feel free to comment on this) what is your idea of "demons", i personally dont believe in the whole underworld speal. my thoughts are that "demons" are a twisted form of individual Psyche brought forth by an act of trauma or when your brain just snaps.

exorcism is quite barbaric and often used on the mentally ill as it is easier to claim demonic possession.

hell is Literally in our heads and souls and our demons can come out to play and control us from the inside because thats where they are, inside us

demons are our thoughs and the wills we never knew existed... or just feared

Originally posted by Bentley

I think the relationship established is interesting ...

from a believer's point of view, how would you find a rationale behind these possessions?

Matthew 7:21-23Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 MANY will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils?
and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%207:21-23&version=AKJV

Originally posted by Genesis-Soldier
demons are our thoughs and the wills we never knew existed... or just feared

That's one of the meanings of the word, yes, but the original and true meaning is that they're the fallen angels. And yes, they're very real.

Originally posted by Bentley
I was replying to your shouts about barbarism or Dark ageism that were, in the context, unwarranted. That's all.

Feel free to jump to every religious thread asking for (impossible?) proof, you're free to do so 👆

That is just my opinion. I call it like I see it. And as far as proof is concerned. There are some things I believe that have no proof, but they require no proof.

The only reason people are upset when asked for proof, is because they believe in proof. If proof was irrelevant, then no one would be upset.

Originally posted by Genesis-Soldier
i do agree with this but (and feel free to comment on this) what is your idea of "demons", i personally dont believe in the whole underworld speal. my thoughts are that "demons" are a twisted form of individual Psyche brought forth by an act of trauma or when your brain just snaps.

exorcism is quite barbaric and often used on the mentally ill as it is easier to claim demonic possession.

hell is Literally in our heads and souls and our demons can come out to play and control us from the inside because thats where they are, inside us

We are in agreement. Demons are part of mythology. However, mythology is very important to everyday life. The idea of demons in Buddhism mythology is more life those little things that stop you from succeeding in life.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
That is just my opinion. I call it like I see it. And as far as proof is concerned. There are some things I believe that have no proof, but they require no proof.

The only reason people are upset when asked for proof, is because they believe in proof. If proof was irrelevant, then no one would be upset.

I agree that there is some space in a debate that asks for putting people in face of their contradictions.

Should I defend my witty reply about asking for historical middle age documents? Because honestly that was mostly a jab and a way to muddle the idea that the Dark Ages were all that "primitive" -there is a part of true on this but it gets way overplayed. If I wanted to debate seriously about it, you still didn't focus on the relevant part of my request and tried to dismiss it with a dialectic distraction 😉

Originally posted by Bentley
I agree that there is some space in a debate that asks for putting people in face of their contradictions.

Should I defend my witty reply about asking for historical middle age documents? Because honestly that was mostly a jab and a way to muddle the idea that the Dark Ages were all that "primitive" -there is a part of true on this but it gets way overplayed. If I wanted to debate seriously about it, you still didn't focus on the relevant part of my request and tried to dismiss it with a dialectic distraction 😉

I was distracted. Sorry.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I'm curious as to why YOU believe in demons.

Explain, please.

myrhology is both an explanation of cultural beliefs : take athena, she is shown as a calm, methodical goddess who punishes Medusa and Aracnidea. Medusa was being raped by posiedion and was blamed for not being chaste and was hence forth turned into a gorgon. Aracnidea had beaten Athena in a weaving contest and out of jealousy athena punished her. the greeks saw men as philisophical and oorganised and literal, where they saw women as chaotic and irrational. mythology is also used to explain the unexplainable such as natural phenmenons. but saying all this the greek gods and mythology was based on the idea that the "human" body was most divine