Vader vs. TOR Jedi strike team

Started by S_W_LeGenD11 pages

Originally posted by Hero of Python
If we're going by game mechanics, I beat Braga in a couple seconds at level 49. And I did it with Doc...not Kira. Then I chose the Dark Side choice and Force Dominated his mind so that he went out and did my bidding. To be honest, he went down easier than the countless silver ranked Sith Assassin's guarding him...

I am not considering gameplay mechanics, I am being logical.

Tol Braga have actual (scripted) showings of overwhelming and forcing HoT on the defensive with his powers during the combat situation.

Originally posted by Hero of Python
If we're going by game mechanics, I beat Braga in a couple seconds at level 49. And I did it with Doc...not Kira. Then I chose the Dark Side choice and Force Dominated his mind so that he went out and did my bidding. To be honest, he went down easier than the countless silver ranked Sith Assassin's guarding him...

There's a difference between game mechanics and nonsense.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am not considering gameplay mechanics, I am being logical.

Tol Braga have actual (scripted) showings of overwhelming and forcing HoT on the defensive with his powers during the combat situation.


No he doesn't. He TK's you while talking.

So? You think that Tol Braga learned telekinesis 'after' his loss to the Emperor?

No, but since they are all quoted as being more powerful, they're probably more powerful. None of the TK shown would help defeat Vader either way.

If Tol Braga can influence HoT with his telekinetic abilities, he can do so to Vader as well. And this is not a far-fetched assumption.

Considering Braga has to blind side the HoT during conversation, still loses, and the HoT is inferior to Vader in every Force showing, I don't see the point.

And again; Vader, realistically, cannot handle the duo of Tol Braga and HoT in a confrontation, forget the Strike Team being considered in this confrontation.

And again, this is based solely on your opinion.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No he doesn't. He TK's you while talking.

Watch the battle:

YouTube video

Hero of Tython attacked Master Tol Braga first.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No, but since they are all quoted as being more powerful, they're probably more powerful. None of the TK shown would help defeat Vader either way.

As I pointed out earlier, Master Tol Braga was strong enough to overwhelm Hero of Tython with his telekinetic abilities. To me, this is sufficient evidence to assume that Master Tol Braga can overwhelm an opponent the caliber of Darth Vader with his telekinetic abilities.

In short, Master Tol Braga is strong enough to challenge Darth Vader on his own. Adding Hero of Tython and 2 more powerful Jedi in the equation, this Jedi Strike Team is absolutely overkill for not just Vader but (most) single individuals of the mythos.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Considering Braga has to blind side the HoT during conversation, still loses, and the HoT is inferior to Vader in every Force showing, I don't see the point.

And again, this is based solely on your opinion.


See above.

I accept your concession in advance.

Damn legend is getting shat on.

Is that really a surprise?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Watch the battle:
Hero of Tython attacked Master Tol Braga first.

I don't need to watch the video, I've played the game. Looks like they're talking to me. I did not remember the sumersault though, so I'll concede there. I hardly see how that's a showing of power however, since the HoT's in the air and not looking.

As I pointed out earlier, Master Tol Braga was strong enough to overwhelm Hero of Tython with his telekinetic abilities.

Not really. In the video you just posted the HoT is hardly putting up Force shields. Vader doesn't usually sumersault anyway.

To me, this is sufficient evidence to assume that Master Tol Braga can overwhelm an opponent the caliber of Darth Vader with his telekinetic abilities.

Except the HoT's not on Vader's caliber with TK. The HoT's not on Vader's caliber with anything. Why are we having this debate where you compare an inferior opponent's ability to recover to an even more inferior opponent. I could see if Braga had actually defeated the HoT instead of letting them regain their lightsaber, but considering Braga couldn't do either of those things, I don't see the relevance. The fact that the HoT is weaker than Vader doesn't help you.

In short, Master Tol Braga is strong enough to challenge Darth Vader on his own. Adding Hero of Tython and 2 more powerful Jedi in the equation, this Jedi Strike Team is absolutely overkill for not just Vader but (most) single individuals of the mythos.

People that could defeat this team that aren't Vitiate, Luke, or Sidious:

Vader
Yoda
Dooku
Malak
Traya
Bane
Krayt
Kun
Windu
Plagueis
Cade
Starkiller/Marek
And a hell of a lot more.

Why? Because these are all people in the leagues of Revan that can at least press him in sabers and the Force. This team couldn't even handle two seconds of lighting, aside from Braga and the HoT, and neither of them stack up to Vader in the Force. And you can go our of your way to say something masterbatory about Vitiate's power, but given the fact not a single person here died from it, I have my doubts to the actual amount of power put behind it.


See above.

So you're not going to respond to the fact that Revan, a Vader-tier opponent, would ragdoll this team. Good.

I accept your concession in advance.

You flattering yourself does you no credit. Perhaps if you spent more time actually looking at the game whose dick you have so far down your throat you're choking on it, you'd see that this team doesn't even stack up to the the major fighters in this game. But then you'd have to admit every random Sith in the Empire isn't Dooku-tier. And we can't have that.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You flattering yourself does you no credit. Perhaps if you spent more time actually looking at the game whose dick you have so far down your throat you're choking on it, you'd see that this team doesn't even stack up to the the major fighters in this game. But then you'd have to admit every random Sith in the Empire isn't Dooku-tier. And we can't have that.

😍

Holy **** this thread is still going on.

To be fair, Vitiate wasn't trying to kill them.

But yeah, when Dooku defeats a strike team with lightning (he has, while drugged, blind and dampened force senses), the excuse is that the strike team was off guard or not good enough defend.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
To be fair, Vitiate wasn't trying to kill them.

My point exactly. It's not even Vitiate's full power behind the lighting, so half of this team fell to a Vitiate that was holding back significant portions of his power, immediately, the rest soon after. It makes their loss worse, not better.

Dooku > Vitiate confirmed?

Your feeble attempts to spite ant are worthless.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You flattering yourself does you no credit. Perhaps if you spent more time actually looking at the game whose dick you have so far down your throat you're choking on it, you'd see that this team doesn't even stack up to the the major fighters in this game. But then you'd have to admit every random Sith in the Empire isn't Dooku-tier. And we can't have that.

😆

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I don't need to watch the video, I've played the game. Looks like they're talking to me. I did not remember the sumersault though, so I'll concede there. I hardly see how that's a showing of power however, since the HoT's in the air and not looking.

Concession accepted.

As for your argument; why didn't you bother to watch the video? Is it too much to ask from you?

"since the HoT's in the air and not looking."

WTF?

Hero of Tython leapt towards Master Tol Braga, using Force Jump telekinetic ability (Just like Anakin Skywalker leapt towards Obi-Wan Kenobi at the beginning of their duel on Mustafar). However, Master Braga caught Hero of Tython in the action mid-air and sent him packing backwards, with his own telekinetic abilities.

Now how exactly the aforementioned feat of Master Braga is not a showing of power as per you? This feat affirms great power and skill of Master Braga in the use of telekinetic abilities. Master Braga had to react swiftly and overcome the defenses of Hero of Tython to pull-off this feat.

Keep in mind that Hero of Tython - getting overwhelmed in a duel for even a moment - is a rare occurrence.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Not really. In the video you just posted the HoT is hardly putting up Force shields. Vader doesn't usually sumersault anyway.

Some actions are not depicted visually in the games, they can be logically assumed. It is norm for a well-trained and battle-hardened Jedi to not neglect his defenses while attacking enemies. You expect Hero of Tython to challenge a powerful opponent while neglecting his defenses? 🙄

As a reminder:

Whether defending allies by deflecting a barrage of blaster-fire or charging in to challenge a Sith Lord, the Knight’s role is crucial in any conflict. The Jedi Knight enjoys the benefit of ancient teachings that have been passed down through hundreds of generations. Combining these time-tested maneuvers with the natural guidance of the Force, the Knight is capable of achieving extraordinary feats.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Except the HoT's not on Vader's caliber with TK.

Really?

YouTube video

Keep in mind that Hero of Tython was the most powerful Jedi of his era, and among the most powerful Jedi ever. He is officially stronger then some Jedi who have feats on par with and/or superior those of Darth Vader.

And Hero of Tython's era have tested the Jed like none other in history:

A symbol of hope in dark times, the Jedi Knight stands for the legacy of the Jedi Order—more than twenty-thousand years of protecting the Republic and keeping the peace across the galaxy. Though Jedi Knights have served as generals, guerilla fighters, and warriors for generations, their legendary combat prowess faces its greatest test during this age.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic

Also keep in mind that Hero of Tython, by virtue of his (class) training and mindset, is less incline to use the Force for offensive purposes. He is more likely to use the Force for defensive purposes. This, however, shouldn't be mistaken for his lack of ability to perform impressive feats by using the Force, should the need arise.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The HoT's not on Vader's caliber with anything. Why are we having this debate where you compare an inferior opponent's ability to recover to an even more inferior opponent.

So I have to take your word for this?

Hero of Tython is possibly not just stronger then Darth Vader ever had been, he is also a legendary lightsaber combatant.

"You are the Jedi's finest." – Lord Scourge (Emperor's Wrath)

"[I]You are our greatest warrior… and our best hope." – Satele Shan

[I]"You harness immense power." - Emperor Vitiate

"The Hero of Tython. Your martial skills are legendary." – Lord Loyat

"You are our greatest asset." – Supreme Chancellor Suresh

More;

Through years of disciplined training and meditation, the Jedi Knight hones body and mind into perfect harmony. Combining the foresight of the Force with unrivaled reflexes and practiced physical precision, the Knight turns combat into an art form, gracefully executing acrobatic feats in tandem with elegant lightsaber tactics.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I could see if Braga had actually defeated the HoT instead of letting them regain their lightsaber, but considering Braga couldn't do either of those things, I don't see the relevance. The fact that the HoT is weaker than Vader doesn't help you.

See above.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
People that could defeat this team that aren't Vitiate, Luke, or Sidious:

Vader
Yoda
Dooku
Malak
Traya
Bane
Krayt
Kun
Windu
Plagueis
Cade
Starkiller/Marek
And a hell of a lot more.

Why? Because these are all people in the leagues of Revan that can at least press him in sabers and the Force. This team couldn't even handle two seconds of lighting, aside from Braga and the HoT, and neither of them stack up to Vader in the Force. And you can go our of your way to say something masterbatory about Vitiate's power, but given the fact not a single person here died from it, I have my doubts to the actual amount of power put behind it.


Fantastic. You have figured it all out so well. The magnitude of brain fart demonstrated in this response is baffling. 🙄

Why?

MASTER TOL BRAGA has gathered a team of the galaxy's most powerful Jedi. Their goal: find the Emperor's hidden fortress, infiltrate its defenses, capture the Emperor and bring him back to the Jedi Order.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic

With Grand Master Satele Shan's support, Master Braga assembles a strike team of the strongest and most resolute Jedi in the order. Their goal is to pinpoint the Emperor's hidden fortress, capture the Sith leader alive, and turn him to the light side.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

So should I take the lore seriously or your nonsense?

As for these Jedi surviving in the confrontation with Emperor Vitiate; they survived because Vitiate wanted them to, because Vitiate went easy on them and wanted to use them as his pwns.

You have played SWTOR Jedi Knight story, right? So tell me what Vitiate did to the Jedi after transforming them into his puppets?

Vitiate utilized them to commit atrocities and fuel his ultimate ritual.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
So you're not going to respond to the fact that Revan, a Vader-tier opponent, would ragdoll this team. Good.

Revan > Vader

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You flattering yourself does you no credit. Perhaps if you spent more time actually looking at the game whose dick you have so far down your throat you're choking on it, you'd see that this team doesn't even stack up to the the major fighters in this game. But then you'd have to admit every random Sith in the Empire isn't Dooku-tier. And we can't have that.

Perhaps if you spent more time actually focusing on the facts affiliated with the game, you may have not committed so much brain fart as you did in this response.

Also, I never claimed that every random Sith in the Empire is Dooku-tier. I asserted that Lords and Darths of the Empire can be Dooku-tier, and they are short in numbers.

For reference: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t611382.html

As for Anakin Skywalker:

Discovered as a slave on Tatooine by Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker had the potential to become one of the most powerful Jedi ever, and was believed by some to be the prophesied Chosen One who would bring balance to the Force. A hero of the Clone Wars, Anakin was caring and compassionate, but also had a fear of loss that would prove to be his downfall.

Disney (Canon) information: http://www.starwars.com/databank/anakin-skywalker

First off, dear sweet Jesus. And you wonder why literally no one wants to engage with you. Calm the **** down with the hype waves. I could see if even half of these were feats, but god damn.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Concession accepted.

How kind of you.

As for your argument; why didn't you bother to watch the video? Is it too much to ask from you?

I've seen it, and commented on what I saw in it, but I didn't watch it?

"since the HoT's in the air and not looking."

WTF?

Hero of Tython leapt towards Master Tol Braga, using Force Jump telekinetic ability (Just like Anakin Skywalker leapt towards Obi-Wan Kenobi at the beginning of their duel on Mustafar). However, Master Braga caught Hero of Tython in the action mid-air and sent him packing backwards, with his own telekinetic abilities.


I'm not sure if you're serious right now, but if you think someone is able to put up shields, which is what stops TK, while they are using their abilities to enhance acrobatics and their saber strikes, then well, all the power to you.

Now how exactly the aforementioned feat of Master Braga is not a showing of power as per you? This feat affirms great power and skill of Master Braga in the use of telekinetic abilities. Master Braga had to react swiftly and overcome the defenses of Hero of Tython to pull-off this feat.

No he didn't. He had to wait for the HoT to jump in the air and attack him, just like the HoT did all over that planet, come to think of it.

Keep in mind that Hero of Tython - getting overwhelmed in a duel for even a moment - is a rare occurrence.

Lulz. According to what? The HoT being in a duel period with someone not a one-off is also a rare occurrence.

Some actions are not depicted visually in the games, they can be logically assumed. It is norm for a well-trained and battle-hardened Jedi to not neglect his defenses while attacking enemies. You expect Hero of Tython to challenge a powerful opponent while neglecting his defenses? 🙄

You can't logically assume someone is using the Force in several different ways all at once, with their full power behind them. Especially when it's never been shown anywhere else.

As a reminder:

Whether defending allies by deflecting a barrage of blaster-fire or charging in to challenge a Sith Lord, the Knight’s role is crucial in any conflict. The Jedi Knight enjoys the benefit of ancient teachings that have been passed down through hundreds of generations. Combining these time-tested maneuvers with the natural guidance of the Force, the Knight is capable of achieving extraordinary feats.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic


Nice. Didn't add a bit to this conversation.

Really?

YouTube video


Lulz. It's funny how you think extending a bridge is an amazing feat of TK on par with Vader. Yes, really, the HoT is so far bellow Vader it's hilarious.

Keep in mind that Hero of Tython was the most powerful Jedi of his era, and among the most powerful Jedi ever. He is officially stronger then some Jedi who have feats on par with and/or superior those of Darth Vader.

Luz. Citation needed for everything besides the Hero of Tython was the most powerful Jedi during TOR, not even their era.

And Hero of Tython's era have tested the Jed like none other in history:

A symbol of hope in dark times, the Jedi Knight stands for the legacy of the Jedi Order—more than twenty-thousand years of protecting the Republic and keeping the peace across the galaxy. Though Jedi Knights have served as generals, guerilla fighters, and warriors for generations, their legendary combat prowess faces its greatest test during this age.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic


It's written with everything up to TOR as a reference, and it's not even a feat or accolade of any kind. It's just a statement that the current Sith are the strongest opponents they have ever faced. Do you even read these, or just copy and past off your hard drive?

Also keep in mind that Hero of Tython, by virtue of his (class) training and mindset, is less incline to use the Force for offensive purposes. He is more likely to use the Force for defensive purposes. This, however, shouldn't be mistaken for his lack of ability to perform impressive feats by using the Force, should the need arise.

Bullshit. The HoT's training has them more inclined to use the Force for strength augmentation, agility, and focus, which surprise, surprise, is really the only thing we have canonical and verifiable proof of them using the Force for.

So I have to take your word for this?

Hero of Tython is possibly not just stronger then Darth Vader ever had been, he is also a legendary lightsaber combatant.

"You are the Jedi's finest." – Lord Scourge (Emperor's Wrath)

"[I]You are our greatest warrior… and our best hope." – Satele Shan

[I]"You harness immense power." - Emperor Vitiate

"The Hero of Tython. Your martial skills are legendary." – Lord Loyat

"You are our greatest asset." – Supreme Chancellor Suresh

More;

Through years of disciplined training and meditation, the Jedi Knight hones body and mind into perfect harmony. Combining the foresight of the Force with unrivaled reflexes and practiced physical precision, the Knight turns combat into an art form, gracefully executing acrobatic feats in tandem with elegant lightsaber tactics.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic

See above.

Case in point about what I said earlier.
Might be hard for you, but you could use actual combat showings.


Fantastic. You have figured it all out so well. The magnitude of brain fart demonstrated in this response is baffling. 🙄

Why?

MASTER TOL BRAGA has gathered a team of the galaxy's most powerful Jedi. Their goal: find the Emperor's hidden fortress, infiltrate its defenses, capture the Emperor and bring him back to the Jedi Order.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic

With Grand Master Satele Shan's support, Master Braga assembles a strike team of the strongest and most resolute Jedi in the order. Their goal is to pinpoint the Emperor's hidden fortress, capture the Sith leader alive, and turn him to the light side.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

So should I take the lore seriously or your nonsense?

As for these Jedi surviving in the confrontation with Emperor Vitiate; they survived because Vitiate wanted them to, because Vitiate went easy on them and wanted to use them as his pwns.

You have played SWTOR Jedi Knight story, right? So tell me what Vitiate did to the Jedi after transforming them into his puppets?

Vitiate utilized them to commit atrocities and fuel his ultimate ritual.


Seriously, feats? Of any kind? Like at all? These four, after the strike team incident which could be almost a year prior, killing republic troops makes them on par with Vader how?

Revan > Vader

Oookay. I forgot you're worse than Ant, for a few seconds.

Perhaps if you spent more time actually focusing on the facts affiliated with the game, you may have not committed so much brain fart as you did in this response.

I don't think you know what a fact is. Facts usually have evidence, of any kind, behind them.

Also, I never claimed that every random Sith in the Empire is Dooku-tier. I asserted that Lords and Darths of the Empire can be Dooku-tier, and they are short in numbers.

No, no, you've argued literally every person called powerful and with a name is on par with Dooku, on multiple occasions. In this very conversation, you just argued that because the Jedi were being pressed now, the HoT was some type of Jedi god.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
As for Anakin Skywalker:

Discovered as a slave on Tatooine by Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker had the potential to become one of the most powerful Jedi ever, and was believed by some to be the prophesied Chosen One who would bring balance to the Force. A hero of the Clone Wars, Anakin was caring and compassionate, but also had a fear of loss that would prove to be his downfall.

Disney (Canon) information: http://www.starwars.com/databank/anakin-skywalker


What does this have to do with anything? At all? Even if it had a modicum of relevance, which it doesn't, we are discussing Legends.

The motion that placing Revan above Vader is a display of bias is lolworthy.

Revan should be approaching Yoda tier in terms of Force power. 👆

👆

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Bullshit. The HoT's training has them more inclined to use the Force for strength augmentation, agility, and focus, which surprise, surprise, is really the only thing we have canonical and verifiable proof of them using the Force for.

Lolwut?

Vader and Yoda really aren't far off Ant.

There's a pretty drastic underestimation of him floating around atm, I'd rate Revan between Yoda and Vader.