~50% for both? Has homosexuality been proven MORE genetically based than alcoholism?

Started by bluewaterrider4 pages

~50% for both? Has homosexuality been proven MORE genetically based than alcoholism?

I've wondered this with all the legislation being passed, vetoed, and/or discussed in the past few months.

One considered socially unacceptable.
One increasingly considered in the opposite fashion.

Both once labelled as diseases affecting loved ones or people we know.

Both sanctioned to various degrees by law and religion.
Both associated with increased risk of depression.

Both once considered matters of choice entirely.
Both now considered to have a genetic aspect separate from what many of us might consider "true" choice.

Most interestingly, though, the degree to which genetics seems to play a role in either case seems to be right around 50%.

Is such really the case?
If so, why?
Why do the numbers appear so similar to one another?
Why is one considered a matter of choice any more or less than the other?
What accounts for the differing perceptions?

Refer to the bolded and underlined sections for the 10 second summary.

Discuss.


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Twin studies of homosexuality have shown that identical twins are about twice as likely to both be gay compared to fraternal twins. This means that being gay is partly genetic and not simply something that a person learns or chooses to be.

There is one important thing to note, though. If the DNA sequence is the only thing determining whether someone is gay or not, we would expect that if one identical twin were gay, then the other would be too 100% of the time.

But this is not what scientists have found – the rate is actually closer to 50%. So while we know that genetics is involved, it doesn’t tell us the whole story. This is where environment comes in ...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://genetics.thetech.org/ask-a-geneticist/homosexuality


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GENETICS OF ALCOHOL USE DISORDER

How do genes influence alcoholism?

Alcoholism often seems to run in families, and we may hear about scientific studies of an “alcoholism gene.” Genetics certainly influence our likelihood of developing alcoholism, but the story isn’t so simple.

Research shows that genes are responsible for about half of the risk for alcoholism. Therefore, genes alone do not determine whether someone will become an alcoholic. Environmental factors, as well as gene and environment interactions account for the remainder of the risk.*

Multiple genes play a role in a person’s risk for developing alcoholism. There are genes that increase a person’s risk, as well as those that may decrease that risk, directly or indirectly. For instance, some people of Asian descent carry a gene variant that alters their rate of alcohol metabolism, causing them to have symptoms like flushing, nausea, and rapid heartbeat when they drink. Many people who experience these effects avoid alcohol, which helps protect them from developing alcoholism.**

As we have learned more about the role genes play in our health, researchers have discovered that different factors can alter the expression of our genes. This field is called epigenetics. Scientists are learning more and more about how epigenetics can affect our risk for developing alcoholism.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/alcohol-use-disorders/genetics-alcohol-use-disorders

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Twin Studies and Adoption Studies: Is Alcoholism Inherited

“Relatives of alcoholics have higher rates of the disease than do relatives of non-alcoholics. But is this nature or nurture? Perhaps some of each, but let’s look at the evidence for heredity.

“Twin studies offer a chance to compare the influence of genetics versus environment. Identical twins (one-egg twins) share exactly the same set of genes while fraternal twins (two-egg twins), like ordinary siblings, share only one-half their genes. A higher rate of concordance (similarity) between identical twins compared with fraternal twins would argue for heredity. In other words, how often are both twins affected together rather than only one. The evidence favors heredity with figures like 60% (identical) versus 39% (fraternal) in one Scandinavian study.

“Even more interesting are the results from adoption studies. When adopted in infancy and studied into adulthood, sons of alcoholics were 4 times as likely to be alcoholic as were sons of non-alcoholics. And this risk was not affected by the alcoholism status of the adopted parent!

“Certainly heredity cannot account for all causation in alcoholism but in that manner it is much like diabetes or heart disease that also have an inherited component.”

From ASK DR. BOB, published by NCADD and written by Robert M. Morse, MD, former Director of Addictive Disorders Services at the Mayo Clinic, NCADD Board Member and member of NCADD’s Medical/Scientific Committee.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://ncadd.org/for-parents-overview/family-history-and-genetics/226-family-history-and-genetics

So you could not have come up with a better thread title or something more simple like "Homosexuality?"

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
So you could not have come up with a better thread title or something more simple like "Homosexuality?"

😕

I had some very specific questions.

You really think a generic one-word title would have reflected everything I'm asking better than the current one does?

Yes because all your questions could be asked in the thread.

YouTube video

Unfortunate title; that's a pretty amazing video you posted.

He voiced one idea I'd given thought to myself:

If homosexuality is something quite separate from depression, etcetera, if said mental stress, depression, etcetera, is due to perceived rejection by American society, shouldn't you expect countries in Europe to have "happier" populations?

That is, shouldn't rates of depression among people who identify as homosexual
match the rates of depression of those who identify as heterosexual?
Instead of far exceeding those of heterosexuals?

Especially in a country like the Netherlands, where people who identify themselves as gay are accepted? And where gay "marriage" has been legal for a decade now?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Unfortunate title; that's a pretty amazing video you posted.

He voiced one idea I'd given thought to myself:

If homosexuality is something quite separate from depression, etcetera, if said mental stress, depression, etcetera, is due to perceived rejection by American society, shouldn't you expect countries in Europe to have "happier" populations?

That is, shouldn't rates of depression among people who identify as homosexual
match the rates of depression of those who identify as heterosexual?
Instead of far exceeding those of heterosexuals?

Especially in a country like the Netherlands, where people who identify themselves as gay are accepted? And where gay "marriage" has been legal for a decade now?

Interesting. So gay people, even in countries where gay-culture is widely accepted and seen as normal, still have mental health issues?

Are there any statistics of depression rate for gays in an accepting area vs. like, gays in Tennessee?

According to blue there are.

Source needed though.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Unfortunate title; that's a pretty amazing video you posted.

He voiced one idea I'd given thought to myself:

If homosexuality is something quite separate from depression, etcetera, if said mental stress, depression, etcetera, is due to perceived rejection by American society, shouldn't you expect countries in Europe to have "happier" populations?

That is, shouldn't rates of depression among people who identify as homosexual
match the rates of depression of those who identify as heterosexual?
Instead of far exceeding those of heterosexuals?

Especially in a country like the Netherlands, where people who identify themselves as gay are accepted? And where gay "marriage" has been legal for a decade now?


Don't kid yourself, legal recognition doesn't immediately translate to full acceptance. There are still plenty of bigots even in a country like the Netherlands, as well as an underlying sense among many people (including many homosexuals) that homosexuality is somehow unnatural.

👆

Re: ~50% for both? Has homosexuality been proven MORE genetically based than alcoholism?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I've wondered this with all the legislation being passed, vetoed, and/or discussed in the past few months.

One considered socially unacceptable.
One increasingly considered in the opposite fashion.

Both once labelled as diseases affecting loved ones or people we know.

Both sanctioned to various degrees by law and religion.
Both associated with increased risk of depression.

Both once considered matters of choice entirely.
Both now considered to have a genetic aspect separate from what many of us might consider "true" choice.

Most interestingly, though, the degree to which genetics seems to play a role in either case seems to be right around 50%.

Is such really the case?
If so, why?
Why do the numbers appear so similar to one another?
Why is one considered a matter of choice any more or less than the other?
What accounts for the differing perceptions?

Refer to the bolded and underlined sections for the 10 second summary.

Discuss.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Twin studies of homosexuality have shown that identical twins are about twice as likely to both be gay compared to fraternal twins. This means that being gay is partly genetic and not simply something that a person learns or chooses to be.

There is one important thing to note, though. [b]If the DNA sequence is the only thing determining whether someone is gay or not, we would expect that if one identical twin were gay, then the other would be too 100% of the time.

But this is not what scientists have found – the rate is actually closer to 50%. So while we know that genetics is involved, it doesn’t tell us the whole story. This is where environment comes in ...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://genetics.thetech.org/ask-a-geneticist/homosexuality


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GENETICS OF ALCOHOL USE DISORDER

How do genes influence alcoholism?

Alcoholism often seems to run in families, and we may hear about scientific studies of an “alcoholism gene.” Genetics certainly influence our likelihood of developing alcoholism, but the story isn’t so simple.

Research shows that genes are responsible for about half of the risk for alcoholism. Therefore, genes alone do not determine whether someone will become an alcoholic. Environmental factors, as well as gene and environment interactions account for the remainder of the risk.*

Multiple genes play a role in a person’s risk for developing alcoholism. There are genes that increase a person’s risk, as well as those that may decrease that risk, directly or indirectly. For instance, some people of Asian descent carry a gene variant that alters their rate of alcohol metabolism, causing them to have symptoms like flushing, nausea, and rapid heartbeat when they drink. Many people who experience these effects avoid alcohol, which helps protect them from developing alcoholism.**

As we have learned more about the role genes play in our health, researchers have discovered that different factors can alter the expression of our genes. This field is called epigenetics. Scientists are learning more and more about how epigenetics can affect our risk for developing alcoholism.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/alcohol-use-disorders/genetics-alcohol-use-disorders

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Twin Studies and Adoption Studies: Is Alcoholism Inherited

“Relatives of alcoholics have higher rates of the disease than do relatives of non-alcoholics. But is this nature or nurture? Perhaps some of each, but let’s look at the evidence for heredity.

“Twin studies offer a chance to compare the influence of genetics versus environment. Identical twins (one-egg twins) share exactly the same set of genes while fraternal twins (two-egg twins), like ordinary siblings, share only one-half their genes. A higher rate of concordance (similarity) between identical twins compared with fraternal twins would argue for heredity. In other words, how often are both twins affected together rather than only one. The evidence favors heredity with figures like 60% (identical) versus 39% (fraternal) in one Scandinavian study.

“Even more interesting are the results from adoption studies. When adopted in infancy and studied into adulthood, sons of alcoholics were 4 times as likely to be alcoholic as were sons of non-alcoholics. And this risk was not affected by the alcoholism status of the adopted parent!

“Certainly heredity cannot account for all causation in alcoholism but in that manner it is much like diabetes or heart disease that also have an inherited component.”

From ASK DR. BOB, published by NCADD and written by Robert M. Morse, MD, former Director of Addictive Disorders Services at the Mayo Clinic, NCADD Board Member and member of NCADD’s Medical/Scientific Committee.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://ncadd.org/for-parents-overview/family-history-and-genetics/226-family-history-and-genetics [/B]


Is this really where our tax dollars are going?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Unfortunate title; that's a pretty amazing video you posted.

He voiced one idea I'd given thought to myself:

If homosexuality is something quite separate from depression, etcetera, if said mental stress, depression, etcetera, is due to perceived rejection by American society, shouldn't you expect countries in Europe to have "happier" populations?

That is, shouldn't rates of depression among people who identify as homosexual
match the rates of depression of those who identify as heterosexual?
Instead of far exceeding those of heterosexuals?

Especially in a country like the Netherlands, where people who identify themselves as gay are accepted? And where gay "marriage" has been legal for a decade now?

he's a comedian.... he's trolling for lulz... just thought i'd let you know what you're cosigning

Originally posted by red g jacks
he's a comedian.... he's trolling for lulz... just thought i'd let you know what you're cosigning

True enough, and I thank you for the cautionary note, but, there's a catch ...

... he's trolling by using TRUE statistics.

That comedian explains even in his descriptions of the act that his purpose was to make the audience as uncomfortable as possible.

(Obviously he succeeded -- ~20% of the room cleared out before his act was over.)

The comedian also had the serious point to make that there are some subjects that people generally thought of as liberal are unwilling to explore even as they ask for tolerance and fair-mindedness from others.

He doesn't make it easy by giving false information, however.
Nearly every statement he makes has a reasonable amount of evidence to back it up.

No, I wasn't joking in the least, that really WAS a remarkable clip you submitted, one which makes points worth viewing and researching.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Don't kid yourself, legal recognition doesn't immediately translate to full acceptance.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by Omega Vision

There are still plenty of bigots even in a country like the Netherlands, as well as an underlying sense among many people (including many homosexuals) that homosexuality is somehow unnatural.

Pretty strong atheist population in that country ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Netherlands

Originally posted by dadudemon
Interesting. So gay people, even in countries where gay-culture is widely accepted and seen as normal, still have mental health issues?
Originally posted by |King Joker|
Are there any statistics of depression rate for gays in an accepting area vs. like, gays in Tennessee?

Originally posted by NemeBro
According to blue there are.

Source needed though.

Alright, here's one that addresses all the major points you guys have brought up:


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Recent studies have used Denmark's extensive registries of vital statistics and other sociodemographic data to examine whether people in same-sex registered domestic partnerships (a proxy indicator of sexual orientation) were overrepresented among suicide decedents. The Danish data can be matched fairly easily because individual information recorded in the various registries uses unique identification numbers assigned to citizens at birth. One study that linked Danish mortality and sociodemographic data (Qin, Agerbo, & Mortensen, 2003) noted that same-sex registered domestic partners were 3–4 times more likely than heterosexual married persons to die by suicide, although this was not a key focus of the study and corroborating data were not presented. A subsequent study that was designed explicitly to examine suicide risk in Denmark by sex and relationship status (Mathy, Cochran, Olsen, & Mays, 2009) found that elevated risk of suicide in same-sex partnered people was concentrated almost exclusively among men. Men who were currently or formerly in same-sex domestic partnerships were eight times more likely to die by suicide compared to men with histories of heterosexual marriage, and almost twice as likely as men who had never married. Although small numbers of cases limited the precision of the analyses, same-sex partnered men appeared to have an elevated risk of suicide across the lifespan. Women in current or former same-sex domestic partnerships did not show significantly higher risk of suicide mortality compared to hetero-sexually married or never-married women. A limitation of the approach used in the Danish studies is that it captures suicide deaths only among partnered and officially registered LGB people. Further, opportunities for replication in other countries have been limited, but these may expand as more as more countries and U.S. states officially recognize and record same-sex marriages and partnerships (Strohm, Seltzer, Cochran & Mays, 2009).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3662085/#R73


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The rights of lesbians, gays, bisexuals, and transgender (LGBT) persons in Denmark are extensive and a high priority.

Same-sex sexual activity was legalized in 1933, and since 1977, the age of consent is 15, regardless of sexual orientation or gender.[1] Denmark was the first country in the world to grant legal recognition to same-sex unions, in the form of "registered partnerships", in 1989. On 7 June 2012, the law was replaced by a new same-sex marriage law, which came into effect on 15 June 2012.[2]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Denmark

Originally posted by dadudemon
Interesting. So gay people, even in countries where gay-culture is widely accepted and seen as normal, still have mental health issues?


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The rights of lesbians, gays, bisexuals, and transgender (LGBT) persons in Denmark are extensive and a high priority.

Same-sex sexual activity was legalized in 1933, and since 1977, the age of consent is 15, regardless of sexual orientation or gender.[1] Denmark was the first country in the world to grant legal recognition to same-sex unions, in the form of "registered partnerships", in 1989. On 7 June 2012, the law was replaced by a new same-sex marriage law, which came into effect on 15 June 2012.[2]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Denmark


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One study that linked Danish mortality and sociodemographic data (Qin, Agerbo, & Mortensen, 2003) noted that same-sex registered domestic partners were 3–4 times more likely than heterosexual married persons to die by suicide ...

A subsequent study that was designed explicitly to examine suicide risk in Denmark by sex and relationship status (Mathy, Cochran, Olsen, & Mays, 2009) found that elevated risk of suicide in same-sex partnered people was concentrated almost exclusively among men. Men who were currently or formerly in same-sex domestic partnerships were eight times more likely to die by suicide compared to men with histories of heterosexual marriage, and almost twice as likely as men who had never married ...

A limitation of the approach used in the Danish studies is that it captures suicide deaths only among partnered and officially registered LGB people.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3662085/#R73

Thank you for citing some of your points.

But what I take away from this is gay women are okay but gay men aren't?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
True enough, and I thank you for the cautionary note, but, there's a catch ...

... he's trolling by using TRUE statistics.

That comedian explains even in his descriptions of the act that his purpose was to make the audience as uncomfortable as possible.

(Obviously he succeeded -- ~20% of the room cleared out before his act was over.)

The comedian also had the serious point to make that there are some subjects that people generally thought of as liberal are unwilling to explore even as they ask for tolerance and fair-mindedness from others.

He doesn't make it easy by giving false information, however.
Nearly every statement he makes has a reasonable amount of evidence to back it up.

No, I wasn't joking in the least, that really WAS a remarkable clip you submitted, one which makes points worth viewing and researching.

alright. well here's another remarkable video for you

YouTube video

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Are there any statistics of depression rate for gays in an accepting area vs. like, gays in Tennessee?

I do remember a story about how when 'anti-bullying stuff isn't allowed to specific protect gay kids/don't say gay' rules were passed in a city, the suicide rate significantly went up in the school districts. It's hard to find the articles from a few years back but, yes, there's an effect.

Oh, and the Mormon church had to re-examine it's stance after Mormon parents who'd lost kids confronted some of the church leadership.

Article on high suicide rate among gay Mormon youths

Originally posted by red g jacks

alright. well here's another remarkable video for you ...

I can only assume you're trying to use the tactic of "poisoning the well" with this last submission. But the quality of one video has little if anything to do with the quality of this more recently submitted video of yours.

Trying to say it does would be like rating the song "More than Words" by Extreme on, say, the title of the album it appeared in. Or the Sophie B. Hawkins lullaby "As I Lay Me Down", a loving homage to her father, on the basis of the OTHER song she was once famous for.

Won't work.
Those were real stats the comic used in the FIRST video you presented, and they deserve to be given serious discussion.