Dragon Ball Discussion Thread

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Well under Goku's training he could potentially pass Buu. Besides it is all about Goku finally becoming a teacher rather than a pupil.

But who knows. Maybe Toriyama forgot Uub. He only had to draw him for one chapter.

...Although Goku IS a terrible father who seemingly hates spending time with his family, so it's possible that he'd want nothing to do with Goten. mmm

Lol, true. At this point I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Toriyama forgot he even created Uub, and never mentions him again. I mean, Uub was 10 years old during the 28th WMAT, which means he was born immediately after Pure Buu's death... Which means he was between 4-6 years old during BoG and RoF... Yet nothing about him was mentioned. 🙁

Well while Whis and Beerus are more worth while fighters it would be in Goku's nature to think Uub could surpass them. Or maybe Whis picks Goku to take his place as...whatever Whis's job is and then Goku decides to take Uub as his first pupil.

Well in Goku's defense we see at the end of Dragonball that Goten would rather date than train. Half Saiyans for all their potential just do not seem to wanna live their entire lives fighting. Guess it is the peaceful human blood.

Which is a shame. I rather like Uub's design. And he could potentially have been the strongest human ever(which in GT he was by a pretty wide margin) but alas. I really would like to see him.

Goku also says he doesn't know who would win between them and Mr Buu 10 years after Goku completely and utterly surpassed Mr Buu. Plus right after Kid Buu lost he said they had to train hard in case Mr Buu went evil... even though Goku was a ways beyond him by then.

Goku is generous with power levels to say the least.

The way the Uub fight would make sense is if Goku reverted all the way to base form and Uub was close to Kid Buu level already.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Well while Whis and Beerus are more worth while fighters it would be in Goku's nature to think Uub could surpass them. Or maybe Whis picks Goku to take his place as...whatever Whis's job is and then Goku decides to take Uub as his first pupil.

...Though some creative tweaking could remedy that, I suppose. 👆

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Well in Goku's defense we see at the end of Dragonball that Goten would rather date than train. Half Saiyans for all their potential just do not seem to wanna live their entire lives fighting. Guess it is the peaceful human blood.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Which is a shame. I rather like Uub's design. And he could potentially have been the strongest human ever(which in GT he was by a pretty wide margin) but alas. I really would like to see him.

http://readms.com/r/dragon_ball_super/001/2831/1

Interesting...

^ Nice. 👆

Interestingly enough, Beerus is the only character in Z who has insta-planet-busted on panel, aside from Pure Buu and RoF Freeza. It's also worth noting that he and Whis tanked said explosion completely unharmed:

Beerus is such a fun character.

And Gohan on the front might be promising.

New "Dragon Ball Super" Preview.

...mmm

My guess is those clips are all from the first/relatively early episodes. That's how teaser trailers usually are.

I'm curious though, with Whis being so much more powerful than even Beerus, I wonder how that lady Whis there with Champa compares. With Whis being pretty much the apex at this point in the franchise, I wonder if others of his race/species/whatever are in the same league. You think the rest of the Gods (or at least "destroyers", if Champa is another universe's God of Destruction) look the same as them? I mean, with twelve universes, you can only have so much variety between the same base for design.

I'm starting to think that Beerus and Champa are pets to Whis and his female counterpart, and Champa has been spoiled and overfed.

^ That's a popular theory out there right now.

Another possibility is that Whis created Beerus.

If you're unfamiliar, Toriyama recently retconned Majin Buu's origin in an official interview--instead of being created by Bibidi, Buu has now simply existed since time immemorial as a force of destruction:

"Though in the manga Kaiōshin said that Bibidi made him, the truth is that one called “Buu” was not actually created by Bididi, but has existed since time immemorial. He cycled between rampages and long hibernation. During numerous iterations of this cycle, he absorbed the evil elements of mankind, becoming steadily more violent. Bibidi merely knew the means of calling Buu from out of his long slumber. Since the current Buu is a slightly different life-form due to the changes brought about when the evil Buu was expelled, it’s not known whether he’ll still go into long hibernation."

Source

Perhaps Majin Buu was Whis' first attempt at creating a God of Destruction..? Perhaps when Buu's destructive rampages became intolerable for Whis, he never woke him back up when he cycled into a period of hibernation(which is where Bibidi came into play), and went on to create another destructor: Beerus..? It's a long shot, I know, but given the above retcon, there are too many similarities between Buu and Beerus to ignore, imo.

It doesn't seem like Beerus has been "made", rather it seems like he has been chosen, just like Whis asked Goku to take the place of Beerus when he died. It's possible though.

Some DBZ ranting/questions for everyone:

1. How does Gohan's Mystic form actually work?

I found this post in another thread, which is how I thought it worked:

Originally posted by Astner

This picture explains it pretty well.

A few problems with this.

* SSJ and SSJ2 are not absolute levels, it is just a multiplier. Base form however is an absolute level (that can increase over time). For example, Base Level is power level of 9,000. SSJ is just 10x whatever the base level is.

* So why can't Gohan turn SSJ and get a 10x boost over his new mystic base form?

* I don't buy the argument that Gohan has reached his maximum potential in mystic form. It's basically saying even if he trained more, he would not get any stronger. But this is the only theory that is coherent. But I don't think this hard limit exists, or at least he has not reached it yet.

* If this "Mystic" level has capped his progression, it is actually worse off for him in the long run. Because by training and achieving the later Saiyan states he would eventually surpass his Mystic base level in the Buu Saga.

How can Goku in SSJGSS form not be stronger than Beerus?

Correct my figures if I am wrong, but in BoG:

Beerus uses about 70% of his power
Goku in God form using 100% looks like he was giving Beerus a good fight.

Also the Oracle Fish character states that Beerus would meet his rival. So it is not unreasonable to say they are in the same ballpark even if Beerus is superior.

Lets say if Beerus is 1, Goku SSJG is 0.5. I actually think Goku would be higher, but thats roll with that.

So in order for Goku SSJGSS not to be at least equal to Beerus, it would mean that the transformation does not even give him a 2x multiplier boost. What kind of weak ass transformation would that be?

I've heard many people say SSJGSS is just SSJG turning Super Saiyan. But the original Super Saiyan form gives a 10x boost, and it turns out SSJGSS transformation is mathematically relatively minor.

And note that Whis says that even with Goku AND Vegeta going SSJGSS that they MIGHT be able to take Beerus. The lack of certainty implies that the SSJGSS transformation gives a maximum boost of 1.6-1.7x IMO.

The reason I say this is because I'm fairly sure two 0.9's ganging up on a 1.0 should be an easy win.

I've read many nonsensical arguments, and it just sounds like a desperate defense. I just think they did not work this out properly when they wrote it.

That is all I have for now.

Originally posted by Placidity
* SSJ and SSJ2 are not absolute levels, it is just a multiplier. Base form however is an absolute level (that can increase over time). For example, Base Level is power level of 9,000. SSJ is just 10x whatever the base level is.

* So why can't Gohan turn SSJ and get a 10x boost over his new mystic base form?

* I don't buy the argument that Gohan has reached his maximum potential in mystic form. It's basically saying even if he trained more, he would not get any stronger. But this is the only theory that is coherent. But I don't think this hard limit exists, or at least he has not reached it yet.

1.) Kaioshin's unlock drew out latent powers in Gohan that he would have never been able to access/achieve by himself...

Elder Kaioshin: "My psychic powers allow me to draw out hidden abilities FAR beyond the limits of even the most skilled fighters" [...] "Beyond the limits, you know what that means?":
http://i.imgur.com/mmR0dg4.jpg

Basically, Gohan could have never reached that level on his own... So once he'd achieved said level, his power was essentially peaked(so far as we know.)

2.) In the original manga, Gohan's Mystic state took the place of his SSJ states...

Gohan: "How do I turn into that Ultimate Warrior?"
Elder Kaioshin: "You turn into that Super-Whatever(Super Saiyan.) Fire it up, just like that."
Gohan: "Just like turning Super Saiyan... Alright, I can do that...":
http://i.imgur.com/Haz8TjG.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/QtGgg4A.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/eQf6Rc9.jpg
As you can see, when Gohan attempted to transform into a SSJ, his power increased astronomically, but he stayed in his base level.

Goku: "I don't believe it! You haven't changed on the outside... You're not even Super Saiyan, but... I didn't know this was even possible!"
Elder Kaioshin: "Transforming isn't everything. That Super-Whatever is just showbiz.":
http://i.imgur.com/OiyntEg.jpg

...Which explains why Gohan couldn't simply power-up to SSJ from his Mystic state and become 50x(not 10x) more powerful. His SSJ state(s) had simply been replaced by his new Mystic/base form.

Originally posted by Placidity
[b] How can Goku in SSJGSS form not be stronger than Beerus?

Correct my figures if I am wrong, but in BoG:

Beerus uses about 70% of his power
Goku in God form using 100% looks like he was giving Beerus a good fight. [/B]

I'd say base Goku(BoG)~60% Beerus, at the most.

Originally posted by Placidity
Lets say if Beerus is 1, Goku SSJG is 0.5. I actually think Goku would be higher, but thats roll with that.

Source

Originally posted by Placidity
I've heard many people say SSJGSS is just SSJG turning Super Saiyan. But the original Super Saiyan form gives a 10x boost, and it turns out SSJGSS transformation is mathematically relatively minor.

But again: hopefully we'll find out more in the months to come(a new Guidebook is slated for release as well.)

Originally posted by Placidity
And note that Whis says that even with Goku AND Vegeta going SSJGSS that they MIGHT be able to take Beerus. The lack of certainty implies that the SSJGSS transformation gives a maximum boost of 1.6-1.7x IMO.

The reason I say this is because I'm fairly sure two 0.9's ganging up on a 1.0 should be an easy win.

Originally posted by Placidity
I just think they did not work this out properly when they wrote it.

^ Makes sense.

I think Gohan reaching his max is lame though. Basically he can never improve, and won't be of significance any more. As of the latest movie, he is a complete non-factor.

I still can't agree with that theory completely, because its saying he can no longer benefit from any zenkai boost either and there is no known limit for this ability. Given infinite time, a Saiyan would become infinitely powerful.

This theory also implies that Gohan has TWO base forms, which is a little weird. Since he can turn SSJ, and it only applies the multiplier to his normal base form and not Mystic.

It would be nice to work out what his normal base form limit would be. Then we could apply 400x multiplier from SSJ3 (which half Saiyans can achieve). I have a feeling it would be stronger than Mystic.

BTW, who is stronger, Buu Saga SSJ3 Goku or Mystic Gohan?

Originally posted by Placidity
^ Makes sense.

I think Gohan reaching his max is lame though. Basically he can never improve, and won't be of significance any more. As of the latest movie, he is a complete non-factor.

Dunno why you think it's lame that he may have been peaked..?

Originally posted by Placidity
Given infinite time, a Saiyan would become infinitely powerful.

Originally posted by Placidity
This theory also implies that Gohan has TWO base forms, which is a little weird. Since he can turn SSJ, and it only applies the multiplier to his normal base form and not Mystic.

Originally posted by Placidity
BTW, who is stronger, Buu Saga SSJ3 Goku or Mystic Gohan?

Originally posted by Galan007

No need for theoretical quantification--Toriyama already gave us numbers to work with:
Whis=15
Beerus=10
SSJG Goku=6(with the potential to increase as the battle progresses.)

I think it was a mistake for him to state those numbers so early.

Now he has locked it in, and most likely will be contradicted soon.

Or if he tries to stick with it consistently then there won't be any meaningful transformations for a while. Because even at 2x he would smack Beerus around.

Originally posted by Galan007

Mystic Gohan was VASTLY more powerful than SSJ3 Goku. That isn't my opinion, that is a fact.

Hm I'm no expert, but I thought this is widely debated?

If it is that much stronger, I guess I can begin to accept that it could be his limit.

Originally posted by Placidity
Because even at 2x he would smack Beerus around.

Originally posted by Placidity
Hm I'm no expert, but I thought this is widely debated?

If it is that much stronger, I guess I can begin to accept that it could be his limit.