Dragon Ball Discussion Thread

Oh, I forgot to comment on the Olibu bit from the manga slowly returning.

Eh, it's one thing to make a legend out of Olibu like as a statue, it's another to make him a present character again. Helps too I guess that he was under King Kai's jurisdiction instead of being under another Kai from a different part of the galaxy like Pikkon.

The north, south, east, and west galaxy shit was never canon anyway iirc, but was interesting world building before we started having other universes, though if they continue shying away from the other universes outside of maybe the occasional tournament, may as well canonize the galaxy quadrant stuff to give universe 7 a bit more meat to it.

I'm probably not the only one, but getting tired of sausage lips designs; Majin Kuu, Majin Duu, 2nd form Cell/Cell Max, Gomah, among others. If I see another character with them it'll be too soon. I guess it just depends now if Toyotaro really has a thing for them, but a canonized Pikkon doesn't have to have them necessarily. You can redesign him a bit.

And yeah, I guess SSG and SS4 don't really need to be connected, although interesting how they're both red now, but so are other things (kaioken and such).

In hindsight, it's mostly funny to think how the Namekians as we knew them from Z are but weaker members split off from the demon realm. If Z Namek had their own Tamigami's guarding the dragon balls, Z Frieza wouldn't of been a problem at all; nevermind how Neva puts Guru to shame and is probably older than him as well. If Daima and Super were better connected for that matter, would've preferred Neva to have unlocked Piccolo's potential during Daima, making Piccolo be where he should earlier on instead of getting the power much much later in Super and from a wish, but I digress.

All that what-ifism or what-aboutism is mostly from how nothing was really planned in order as far as the writing and world building, but I guess that's how it's always been with Dragon Ball to a degree.

Oh, and the demon realm army composing of mostly soldiers with guns and tanks. Cringe to think how they could give the Z era trouble. Their weapon technology is more advanced than earth's though, since their shit can override regeneration apparently.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Eh, it's one thing to make a legend out of Olibu like as a statue, it's another to make him a present character again.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
The north, south, east, and west galaxy shit was never canon anyway iirc, but was interesting world building before we started having other universes, though if they continue shying away from the other universes outside of maybe the occasional tournament, may as well canonize the galaxy quadrant stuff to give universe 7 a bit more meat to it.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
In hindsight, it's mostly funny to think how the Namekians as we knew them from Z are but weaker members split off from the demon realm. If Z Namek had their own Tamigami's guarding the dragon balls, Z Frieza wouldn't of been a problem at all; nevermind how Neva puts Guru to shame and is probably older than him as well. If Daima and Super were better connected for that matter, would've preferred Neva to have unlocked Piccolo's potential during Daima, making Piccolo be where he should earlier on instead of getting the power much much later in Super and from a wish, but I digress.

Based on all the information at hand: Neva is millionS of years old, and the implication seems to be that his lifespan has been further extended by various Demon Kings and whatnot. So yeah, Neva is definitely ancient... But he's still done things with his magics that are just stupidly OP, even by DB standards.

To date, Neva has:
1.) Whimsically created the Demon Realm DBs as a thank you gift to his people.
1a.) Makai Porunga(the Dragon Neva created) is immensely powerful outside of 'just' the ability to grant high-end wishes, as he effortlessly stopped Third-Eye Gomah's attack with one finger, then just flicked him away like a powerless feeb. It really is a very impressive showing for the Dragon, tbh, considering Gomah > SS4... This is [potentially] an insane reflection of Neva's personal power as well, but I digress.
2.) Created the three Tamagamis to guard the Demon Realm DBs(even the weakest Tamagami[#3] > Dabura.)
2a.) Was able to amp Tamagami #2 on the fly(skyrocketing its power to > Boo-era SS2-level.)
3.) Created barriers which prevented travel between the Demon Worlds(a feat that, per Piccolo, NO Namekian could replicate.)
3a.) Was able to remove said barriers at-will.
4.) Showed far more mastery over Earth's DBs with a gesture, than any 'Kami' ever has.
5.) Empowered Goku to unlock SS4.

Neva's powerset has just been very broken and plot-devicey so far, and I'm still unsure what his actual motives are -- that's why he's such a mystery to me. Is he just a really old Namekian who has simply mastered his natural powers to their fullest, or is he something more?

..."Legendary Namekian" indeed. ermm

Originally posted by Galan007
The finale itself was decent enough, I guess, but all in all, Daima was a huge disappointment for me. Thank God it was only 20 episodes. At least the animation was consistently great, though, I'll give it that. 👆

That said, unless an official source confirms Daima's canonicity, then I'm personally putting it in the same category as GT(ie. DBS is canon to Daima, but Daima is non-canon to DBS)... With SS4(among other things) in the picture, it really can't fit into DBS canon at this point. /shrug

There was no EoS mind-wipe, which could have reconciled almost everything. There was no "it only works in the Demon Realm" kind of stip on SS4(and apparently Goku had already unlocked SS4 at some point prior to Daima anyway (lol), so I'm thinking Neva's magic just helped coax it out of his chibi form?) There was no remerger of Shin and Kibito. Etc.

Also, with all the fan-fic-esque "reveals" we've gotten in this show, the lack of a new fusion honestly surprised me. The fusion bugs were just a giant red herring.

Gomah is probably one of the lamest villains I've ever seen in DB, and his weakness is even worse(three hits to the back of the head? Seriously, lol?) The fight between he and Goku was visually stunning, but very anticlimactic.

I did enjoy seeing Kuu's "ascension" into the King of the entire Demon Realm, though. Pretty bad when he is arguably the best character in the show.

The post-credits scene of seeing a few other demon eyes for sale at the shop market they were at was sus too, which Toriyama did to leave things open to speculation. Same with the SSJ4 thing I guess which we can only assume Goku loses the form somehow...

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
The post-credits scene of seeing a few other demon eyes for sale at the shop market they were at was sus too, which Toriyama did to leave things open to speculation. Same with the SSJ4 thing I guess which we can only assume Goku loses the form somehow...

I mean, Goku literally told Beerus in BoG that SS3 was his most powerful form(sans God ki, obvs), and he absolutely would NOT have had any reason to be holding back or lying -- Goku was undeniably going all-out there, yet no mention of SS4 whatsoever.

*Nevermind the handful of other times in DBS where Goku has displayed all transformations for his opponent(from base to blue), and SS4 was never even alluded to.

...And that is just one of Daima's many inconsistencies/plot-holes(admittedly the largest), but that's far from all. As mentioned, Shin and Kibito still being unfused entirely contradicts DBS as well.

So yeah, until an official source says otherwise, I am personally putting Daima in the "canon-adjacent" category(alongside GT and whatnot.) As of now, it just... Can't be canon in any rationally explainable way that I can see. /shrug

Yeah. Not like there's been a singular canon for awhile now anyway; with DBS it was divided between the movies, anime, and manga.

Overall, the Daima final episode was mid, like most of the show itself. I got more hype from the SSJ4 transformation scene in the prior episode than I did the finale. Saw a couple music edits of it, one of which had the Faulconer music of course.

And while the SSJ4 fanservice was otherwise nice and all, I honestly kinda still prefer Ultra Instinct at the end of the day. Its theme music from the ToP just gives it the edge imo, but I can respect anyone's preference for SSJ4.

😂

As weird as it kinda was, am more thankful in hindsight for how we got the original SSJ4; Old Kai using pliers to pull Goku's tail back out of him, and then the golden oozaru thing happened followed by Pan's tears. That all felt organic in comparison.

And I guess enough time has passed to say that most DB villains or rivals/antagonists are better than Gomah. He was a weenie.

Compared to the guys from Super (Zamasu, Jiren, Moro, and whatnot) and GT (Baby, Omega Shenron), and let alone Z, he just falls short.

Not Cell Max awful, just in the wasted potential category I suppose.

I hope whenever ssj3 Vegeta gets added to any game he will be called Ultra Vegeta 1 instead...

Oh, in hindsight I guess both Gohan and Piccolo got punished for having a movie to themselves; as in one was a no-show for Daima, and the other didn't really get to do anything.

Piccolo didn't really even help contribute to Gomah's defeat, and even if Neva had unlocked Piccolo's potential like he did Goku's, the orange form there would contradict how he got it in Super, though would've been nice fanservice nonetheless I suppose.

See, with the last DBS movie I could still believe that Piccolo was Toriyama's favorite character, only that he ran out of ideas for him for awhile, but not with Daima.

At first I saw the whole "Goku lied to Beerus when they first met about SSJ3 being his final form at the time" as a meme, but now it looks like some are actually using that as a serious arguing point to try and keep Daima and Super connected. 😂

Goku having SSJ4 and hiding it from everyone throughout the entirety of Super up to this point, only for him to pull it out as a trump card against Black Frieza. Riiight.

That said, I can understand the fan dream of having like SSJ4 combined with Ultra Instinct, making it look like the SSJ5 fan concept of Dragon Ball AF; the silver looking SSJ4. Funny how Toriyama kinda left the door open for Toyotaro to do that now if he wanted.

Ssj4 with monkey forearms and hands does look kinda wierd tho....

YouTube video

Apparently Japan doesn't care about the concept of canon and continuity nearly as much as the West does, which explains a lot. Even GT was labeled as a side story, but not explicitly "it's not canon, it never happened" in Japan or Toriyama's words.

So it really is just different timelines like with comic books and other stuff, where they all kinda have their own place. srug Even then, GT was always an official product.

Good post. Thank you for sharing 👆

Most of us knew that aready, to be fair haw-som

The problem for the longest time was obsessed fans trying to connect everything in a single coherent line (dismissing what they can't see fitting in said line) so the series overall seems grander despite the creators never intending that.

Whatever the subtitle (Super, Daima, GT, whatever) or how it connects or doesn't connect to something previous, Japan mostly just sees it as more Dragon Ball. Same with Yu-Gi-Oh and whatever else that's been long running with different sub-series.

👆 Canon only really "matters" for battleboard purposes... Or to have a general understanding of why movie villains/plots and whatnot were never referenced in the main DBZ/DBS stories. /shrug

But yeah, the fact that there are so many forms of canon just shows you that the Japanese really don't give AF about seamlessly meshing everything together. To them, DB content is DB content -- even Toriyama himself only talked about canonicity when specifically asked in interviews or somesuch.

To this day, the only material that is irrefutably canon (to everything) is the original DB/DBZ manga. Although official guidebooks, V-Jump articles, and obviously Toriyama interviews could also be included in this tier.

Then we get into the other forms of primary canon(ie. material that is canon to DBZ, and DBZ is canon to it, yet they all still have differences preventing them from being canon to each other):
DBS (movies)
DBS (anime)
DBS (manga)
*You could also lump specials like "Yo! SGAHFR" and "The History of Trunks"(maybe?) into this tier.

Canon-adjacent(ie. DBZ/DBS are canon to them, but they are non-canon to DBZ/DBS):
DBZ (anime/filler)
DBZ (movies)
Xenoverse
GT
Daima (for now, at least)
etc.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if Daima's canonicity is addressed by some DB official in the near future, given all the SS4 uproar online. 😂

On a slightly different topic...

As per usual Dragon Ball inconsistency, Cell is implied strongest at the time when he returns with his zenkai going by this translation I came across. He was either slightly below, even with, or slightly above SSJ2 Gohan by that point.

Also like how the father-son kamehameha is described as a combination of the power of both Gohan and Goku. Suppose it should be obvious given the name of that move, but it's not just a symbolic thing but a combined energy/ki thing as well, making up for Gohan only having one arm left.

Reminds me how there's still an argument amongst some as to who was stronger between Buuhan and Kid Buu, but I guess the 2nd half of Z was always open to interpretation like that.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
As per usual Dragon Ball inconsistency, Cell is implied strongest at the time when he returns with his zenkai going by this translation I came across. He was either slightly below, even with, or slightly above SSJ2 Gohan by that point.

Also like how the father-son kamehameha is described as a combination of the power of both Gohan and Goku. Suppose it should be obvious given the name of that move, but it's not just a symbolic thing but a combined energy/ki thing as well, making up for Gohan only having one arm left.

*SPC himself explicitly credited the Saiyan aspect of his composition for providing him with said powerup:
https://ibb.co/7x8vF9jK
So aside from the identical visuals (*see above*), Cell unlocking SS2 also makes the most sense in context, imo -- which means he would've received the canon "2x SS1" multiplier, just like Gohan. That said, logical scaling should be: SPC > SS2 Gohan(base) > Perfect Cell > FPSS1 Gohan.

However, Gohan has that [bottomless] extra well of power he can pull from in moments of extreme duress, which is how I've always rationalized his final Kamehameha -- Goku just gave him the spiritual/emotional/fatherly push he needed to dig deep and access said power. And fwiw, even Vegeta mentioned Gohan's natural "rage factor" years later during the Boo saga:
https://ibb.co/GQSKMVnH

It's also worth mentioning that Vegeta intentionally distracted SPC in order to give Gohan the opening/opportunity he needed to fully unleash his Kamehameha:
https://ibb.co/XrvT8wkj
https://ibb.co/ZzDyngqL

...And we know distractions can make a HUGE difference in DB:

IOW, Gohan might not have been able to defeat Cell at all if Vegeta hadn't provided a tactical distraction for him. haw-som

Either way, I personally cannot get behind the notion that Goku literally lent his own power/ki to Gohan there. Aside from the fact that it wasn't so much as implied in the source material itself, I also didn't think it was possible for the dead to do that..? /shrug

Yeah, that's fair.

Also should be noted I guess that in a later version of the manga (colorized), they reworded some things, with Cell now saying "I'm almost as strong as Gohan".

Kinda weird for Cell to be modest enough to put himself slightly below Gohan when he just became stronger than ever, but whatever.

However, there was this interesting change, where the manga now mentions the whole "I have enough power to destroy the entire solar system". 131 I remember Cell lowballers saying he was bluffing with that statement in the anime, so interesting to see how it made its way in the manga in some form.

But yeah, the whole inconsistencies with zenkai boost Cell's power measurement has been interesting.

Yeah, I've seen those [newer] translations floating around, but are they actually legit? Because in some cases their text deviates so wildly from the original Japanese(and even original Viz) material, that I just figured they were non-canon scanlations. /shrug

That's fair. Not sure as to their validity myself.

Coming across this now, occurs to me even more how we're all (as a fandom) selectively accepting of out of nowhere powerups based on how much we like or don't like a character as much as others.

Of course, we only have modern Dragon Ball to thank for these mindsets...

As much as fans now meme about forms that are basically recolors, an irony I suppose is that the classic super saiyan design (the gold/yellow) is technically a recolor; with the Z manga, it happened as a powerup so that Toriyama would no longer have to completely color in Goku's hair like before.

None of those other transformations were planned along the way of course, but it made sense for golden hair to represent the best of saiyans at the time with Z. Didn't feel phoned in like most of the recolor forms seen later since transformations were treated as a milestone at first rather than a stepping stone.

I miss when that form of saiyans was relevant, since whenever you see Goku or Vegeta use it now, it's just to flex or show off before powering up to whatever their real strongest state is.