Originally posted by Digi
I have a friend who's a Jesuit priest; one of the smartest and most considerate people I know. Be careful not to conflate an entire religion with what likely amounts to the decisions of a few.
I hope you are right, I hope most others of the religion go on record denouncing it.
I still think it is a shame because people will talk about it and they'll just focus on the controversial mural now as opposed to the actual steps forward being taken by the church.
Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Catholic priests are some of the dirtiest most detestful people in th world. The church proves itself which is represented by it's leaders. Immoral, disgusting people.
Again conflating parts with the whole. I'm an atheist, but was raised Catholic, which should tell you something of what I think of Catholic doctrine. But I still count several Catholics - including priests and deacons - among my good friends and advisers.
The well-documented scandals they've gone through are indeed disgusting. But it remains - as these things usually do - a small percentage among an overwhelmingly well-meaning majority.
Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Catholic priests are some of the dirtiest most detestful people in the world. The church proves itself which is represented by it's leaders. Immoral, disgusting prevented men that exist. Does not suprise me in the least.
In my Catholic grammar school they'd always send home a bunch of free collection envelopes with the students. They had each specific students name, address, etc. on them. When I say collection envelopes I mean that in the part during mass where people take up a collection the idea was to have your money prepared ahead of time and put in an envelope.
I come to find out the reason was so they could keep track of which families were regularly attending church and which were not. I remember just feeling creeped out when I found that out.
Though I don't want to lump them all into the same boat. There were a few priests I liked. I had a German priest for a Spanish teacher in high school and he'd always go on about how he got laid a lot. But of course he meant..when you go to Hawaii and they put that flowerly necklace around you? That is called getting "laid" or whatever..and the guy traveled to Hawaii a lot. He'd joke that he became a priest so the life of poverty would help him lose weight. So not all of them are bad.
Whisper- don't make flame posts like that again or it's a ban.
And indeed, a lack of any attempt to try and understand this thing can become a much bigger problem than the mural itself. These people may be mistaken but they do actually have genuinely felt reasons to believe what they do, and to write it off as people just being stupid, anti-American and/or senseless is tremendously unhelpful. This is all part of a massive cultural issue the US has to deal with, and as Digi says, simply showing outrage increases the divide.
In the UK, we had convicted terrorists being elected as MPs. That was outrageous to many, but such seething hate against it made the conflict worse, not better. A lack of effort to understand community feeling encouraged disaster.
It's easy here to get sucked into just trying to find people to hate or seeing things as a bigger mystery as they need to be. But as I said at first, it's really very simple. All your negative views you have on this person- they think you are utterly mistaken in them. You can try and understand that and deal with it rationally, or you can just get angry, but getting angry achieves nothing.
We certainly have here a very biased and unhelpful article- and from an objective perspective, the idea that 1970s cops engaged in a racially-motivated miscarriage of justice is, if nothing else, hardly a ludicrous idea. Language like 'cop-killer' is thrown around liberally, but note that she was never accused in court of shooting a cop (indeed, someone else was convicted of firing the bullets)- her murder conviction is that of being an accomplice to the shooter (not that this is not a crime, but it puts 'cop killer' into perspective). There are areas to explore here if you want to make sense of it.
All that considered, that some people see her as a hero has one of two reasons:
1. She is a victim of a miscarriage
2. She is not but they genuinely think she is
And note that the mindset in both cases is identical.
Disagree on the particulars of the case all you like, but you can't just write it off as senseless irrationality- there are reasons involved. There is no third option where these people are all just random idiots.
In any case, I understand the mural is being removed, which is likely a good thing. Regardless of freedom of speech, community aggravation cuts both ways, and making a mural in a place of education out of Assata, even if you think she is innocent, is needlessly provocative.
They have NOT given valid reasons why she is a hero. They feel she suffered a "miscarriage" of justice. Okay, the evidence is..where?
I mean if they totally have actual evidence that will clear her name should they not give it up? Orrr is it just "she is black, so she must be a victim of the justice system" ? It's either they support a murderer or do not think she did what she did or feel she was justified in doing it, in which okay when will they present evidence?
If they can't give any actual evidence for why they believe what they believe, then how could we not call it irrational BS? By all means, if they want to be taken seriously then they can give valid reasonable responses that make actual sense for why they think this. Now see, no..saying "oh I think justice wasn't done for her!" isn't enough, not by a long shot. Why don't they feel justice is done, what evidence is there, etc. etc. They don't get to spout silly crap like "Asshat taught me" and leave it at that.
Dude, calm down.
Here you go: http://www.assatashakur.org/
Feel free to not believe her, that's your right and choice and it could very well be the correct one. Some people believe she was a victim and persecuted due to her outspoken beliefs and the groups/people she mingled with.
That article has at least one factually incorrect error. The reward for her capture is not $2,000,000. It's $1,000,000.
"The FBI is offering a reward of up to $1,000,000 for information directly leading to the apprehension of Joanne Chesimard."
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/wanted_terrorists/joanne-deborah-chesimard/view
This is from Wiki:
"Since May 2, 2005, the FBI has classified her as a domestic terrorist and offered a $1 million reward for assistance in her capture. On May 2, 2013, the FBI added her to the Most Wanted Terrorist List; the first woman to be listed.[8] On the same day, the New Jersey Attorney General offered to match the FBI reward, increasing the total reward for her capture to $2 million."[9]
Originally posted by Robtard
This is from Wiki:"Since May 2, 2005, the FBI has classified her as a domestic terrorist and offered a $1 million reward for assistance in her capture. On May 2, 2013, the FBI added her to the Most Wanted Terrorist List; the first woman to be listed.[8] On the same day, the New Jersey Attorney General offered to match the FBI reward, increasing the total reward for her capture to $2 million."[9]
Okay, then. I checked the article and the wording says this:
"The FBI has her listed as a domestic terrorist and she is on their Most Wanted Terrorist List. There is a $2 million reward on her head."
I made the faulty assumption that he was stating that the FBI put a $2 million reward on her head.
😠
But, yeah, I'm familiar with the FBI's most wanted/highest payouts because I it would be like winning the lottery if I even run across those people and turn them in. 😐
When I read the article, I thought, "HAAA! He's wrong n'stuff. It's only $1 mil. WEEE!"
Originally posted by Surtur
In my Catholic grammar school they'd always send home a bunch of free collection envelopes with the students. They had each specific students name, address, etc. on them. When I say collection envelopes I mean that in the part during mass where people take up a collection the idea was to have your money prepared ahead of time and put in an envelope.I come to find out the reason was so they could keep track of which families were regularly attending church and which were not. I remember just feeling creeped out when I found that out.
Though I don't want to lump them all into the same boat. There were a few priests I liked. I had a German priest for a Spanish teacher in high school and he'd always go on about how he got laid a lot. But of course he meant..when you go to Hawaii and they put that flowerly necklace around you? That is called getting "laid" or whatever..and the guy traveled to Hawaii a lot. He'd joke that he became a priest so the life of poverty would help him lose weight. So not all of them are bad.
That's an awesome priest.