Palpatine's Empire vs Krayt's Empire

Started by Q994 pages
Originally posted by SunRazer
Sidious's Empire developed a number of plagues/biotic weapons as well, and he does have his Alchemical creations such as his Chrysalides.

Yea, but they aren't used nearly as much, or, IMO, up to Maladi's standards.

Maladi's bioweapons involve both vong techniques and bioweapons made against vong.

Including, both bioweapons made specifically for use against force-users (vong aspects making them *very* hard to force heal, even Cade was barely able to do so), and bioweapons that don't work on sith but will wipe out all life on a world 'in a matter of breaths'.

As for Chrysalides, there's Vul Isen's Leviathans. Sith Leviathans, I don't think I have to tell you, are horrifying prospects. Chrysalides have strong claws and armor, Leviathans drain life.

I'm aware of what Leviathans can do. Palpatine has mastered the Alchemical techniques involving the creation of Leviathans and Chrysalides as well. I can try to get you the quotes later.

Palaptine has the best weapon the Death Star. Lol

Well...

Palpatine has himself (presumably in DE mode), and Vader. It also has his Hands, which include Lumiya. Mara Jade is less useful because she stops being evil and only teenage Mara would work for him.

Krayt has himself and his order of Sith...but the Rule of 2 was invented for a reason. The Dark Side is like Venom...poured into many vessels, it is but an irritant. Pour them back into a single cup, and you have the power to stop a Krayt Dragon's heart.

Roughly translated: Sidious and Vader can gank Krayt and his entire order.

While Krayt has better tech, it's true, he didn't really make a whole lot of planet busters, so I figure, tech side, his better stuff won't stop his planet from being blown up. And Sidious's Battle Meditation counts for a lot.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Well...

Palpatine has himself (presumably in DE mode), and Vader. It also has his Hands, which include Lumiya. Mara Jade is less useful because she stops being evil and only teenage Mara would work for him.

Also the Inquisition, which is, like, 80 people or so, most of whom are chumps.

And if we're talking Dark Empire, then the, hehe, 'Dark Side Elite.' A really pathetic group of dark siders, a half-dozen at a time.

Plus a few other scattered ones.

Sidious actually had a surprisingly large number of Dark Side users, it's just they were scattered between multiple groups, kept ignorant, and not fully trained in the way of the dark side. Most of them are barely speedbumps and rank and file One Sith can deal with them, let alone major One Sith or Sith Troopers.

Krayt has himself and his order of Sith...but the Rule of 2 was invented for a reason. The Dark Side is like Venom...poured into many vessels, it is but an irritant. Pour them back into a single cup, and you have the power to stop a Krayt Dragon's heart.

Roughly translated: Sidious and Vader can gank Krayt and his entire order.

Not really, they can't. The stuff about concentrating the dark side is a philosophical point, but we know plenty of sith from non-RoT times that can beat many RoT sith.

There's a reason why Sidious never even thought about taking the Jedi order head on, it'd be suicidal, because while he may take Mace or Yoda, he has no wish to take on the whole council plus whatever other strong Jedi they can dig up. Same problem here.

The concentration of power in rule of two is great for some purposes, but Krayt and Wyyrlok are as strong as some RoT sith, only they bring a lot of backup with them.

Plus, there's simply the matter of being in more places. If you've got two great sith, that's great, they can make a difference in two important battles. If you've also got a ton of other good sith, well, they'll make differences at all the battles they're at.

Krayt can have force-user forces present at pretty much every major event.

And when facing Vader or Sidious, he can bring 30 Sith Troopers with him to soften things up, and make sure the term 'fair fight' never comes into play.

Heck, I want to point something out: Krayt knows Dark Transfer. He can heal Vader's burns, and he knows it, and he knows Anakin. He may be able to get Anakin to switch sides.


While Krayt has better tech, it's true, he didn't really make a whole lot of planet busters, so I figure, tech side, his better stuff won't stop his planet from being blown up. And Sidious's Battle Meditation counts for a lot.

His best stuff can blow up the planet busters pretty easily, though. Dragon Ships and Annihilators can burst through the fleet defending the Galaxy Gun (a stationary target) and wreck it, and you'll be hard pressed to find something that can trenchrun any easier.

And beat the defenses of the most well-defended planets. Like, let's say Krayt's Coruscant gets blown up... but then his forces take Sidious's Coruscant. Who's really got the edge there?

Though, come to think of it, Galaxy Gun projectiles are dangerous because they're well-shielded enough that you can't shoot them down before they hit target. Annihilators pierce shields. So major planets can likely be defended against the GG at least, too, until it's blow up. Death Stars are a bit trickier but literally everyone knows the trench runs at this point, and the DS2 still isn't complete.

SunRazer
I'm aware of what Leviathans can do. Palpatine has mastered the Alchemical techniques involving the creation of Leviathans and Chrysalides as well. I can try to get you the quotes later.

He never made Leviathans, though. We saw Chrysalides deployed, but Leviathans weren't.

Vul Isen not only made Leviathans, but brand new variations of them.

That's a thing: Krayt has a lot of people. Sidious may know the techniques but it's an intensive process, he never actually made 'em. While Krayt can have an alchemist literally making Sith Leviathans full-time.

Originally posted by Darth Demenos
all technology is the same
***galaxy guns and death stars are optional

all out war!!!

Sheev's Force storms win this. GG, Krayt. excellent

...Yeah, the Force Storms.

That's the thing. Maybe Krayt brings his Lieutenants and 30 other piker Sith with him when he goes to challenge DE Sidious and Vader.

Sidious gets a Force Storm going. Superior numbers are moot. They might try to rush him, but that's what Vader, Lumiya, and Inquisitors are for. There's a decent line of people to get through to stop the Storm, since you can't stop it without the Light Side normally.

That is, I don't think numbers are alone are enough for the One Sith to take on DE Sidious with aid. Force Storm is too good at cleaning out battlefields of pikers (and even Lieutenants)

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Palaptine has the best weapon the Death Star. Lol

Not really relevant when it comes to Krayt, but the Death Star is kinda dwarfed by Centerpoint Station.

Wasn't Centerpoint destroyed by the Legacy comics?

I'm so done when a single fracking starfighter can take out a capital ship..

Just like a single lousy starfighter took out the Death Star 😛

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Just like a single lousy starfighter took out the Death Star 😛

Who was piloted by a Force Sensitive, who then in turn was told by the Force when to fire the proton torpedos.

Add to that, that was a space station that wasn't firing at the starfighter and only 3 TIEs were chasing and would have had said starfighter if a smuggler didn't come in at the last minute.

Two entirely different things, it was also an exploited weakness. The starfighter didn't just blow it up because lol it could....like this Krayt fighter can apparently with capital ships.

Well anyway, Krayt definitely knows about the Death Star's weakness and I'm sure he has tons of sith pilots who could blow it up.

Sith Troopers with their links to the Annihilator-class starfighters would take out the Death Star.

Originally posted by carthage
Wasn't Centerpoint destroyed by the Legacy comics?

It was, hence the "Not really relevant when it comes to Krayt" part. Just pointing out that the Death Stars were not the greatest superweapons.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
...Yeah, the Force Storms.

That's the thing. Maybe Krayt brings his Lieutenants and 30 other piker Sith with him when he goes to challenge DE Sidious and Vader.

Oh, he has a lot more than that. 30 is just a good soften-up force for if he's dealing with *one* of them.

He can bring hundreds, or thousands.


Sidious gets a Force Storm going. Superior numbers are moot. They might try to rush him, but that's what Vader, Lumiya, and Inquisitors are for. There's a decent line of people to get through to stop the Storm, since you can't stop it without the Light Side normally.

See, right there? You have 80% of Sidious's force users in one place.

That means, as an alternative to taking them on, that Krayt's major force users can be spread out winning a dozen major battles.

Sidious can't afford to concentrate so much. Sure, whereever he is may go his way, but that won't win a war if he's losing most other major fights.

And if the focus is on taking out that concentrated force, a Force Storm may be a threat to entire fleets, but a big spread-out force of Annihilators can go after and hammer whatever ship, station, or world Sidious is on. If all his major assets are in one place like that, they don't have anything better to do. If Krayt's forces do focus on that location, they could afford to spend 3/4ths the One Sith orders and Sith Troopers, and it'd still be worth it for a victory.

An actual duel, come to think of it, really isn't in the most likely. It's better to kill Sidious from orbit. But if there is a duel, then Krayt's going to have troopers and various darths split off all of Sidious's force user support, have his sorcerers work to counter the Force Storms (sure, they're powerful, but they take a lot of concentration even for Sids, disrupting that concentration is bad), and then if all that is done, go in with several strong Sith at his side and a good group of Sith Troopers, sending in the troopers first just to make Sidious spend effort first and get a better sense on his precise level.

Basically a one-on-one or even number fight isn't going to happen. It's either going to be a 'pile on him ala what happened with Kol Skywalker,' or if the Force Storms are too much of a threat, just kill him from a distance, or if it is something resembling a duel, make sure there's enough other strong sith around to counter any Sidious with him.

And if he *doesn't* think he can prevent the force storms and do that, then just don't engage directly, win the war via other means, kill the superweapons and win more battles.

Because what are the odds that Sidious can force a duel with Krayt on something near Sidious's terms here?

Krayt knows of Sidious's strength.
He also has the more mobile trump cards in the force of a sith order and sith troopers, which can give him local superiority, and those ones are big enough that even if Sidious has every last force user on his side with him, Krayt can still bring enough to run over all the lesser ones pretty quickly and easily (most Inquisitors and Dark Side Elite would lose to Sith Troopers even if they had numerical advantage!).

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Who was piloted by a Force Sensitive, who then in turn was told by the Force when to fire the proton torpedos.

Add to that, that was a space station that wasn't firing at the starfighter and only 3 TIEs were chasing and would have had said starfighter if a smuggler didn't come in at the last minute.

Two entirely different things, it was also an exploited weakness. The starfighter didn't just blow it up because lol it could....like this Krayt fighter can apparently with capital ships.

The One Sith both knows the DS weaknesses as a matter of historical record, and even before the Sith Trooper Annihilators came on line, had sith ace pilots like Darth Rauder.

Here's just some of them, from one fleet's pilot complement. They're normally one per squadron, doubling as political officers.

Krayt's Empire can send a very large force of fighters against them, with a significant core of force users. Annihilators can go around destroying all the turrets near the trench to boot, making it easy for people to take as many trench runs as they need.

Pilot-wise, there's barely any force sensitive pilots in the Empire. Vader, Steele.... they don't have the quantity of quality of the Krayt Empire elite.

Guys I wasn't even coming into the debate, I was just clarifying that Luke didn't destroy the Death Star just because he could or the X-wing could.

I was just merely saying the Annhilator is completely stupid imo being able to destroy a capital ship.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Guys I wasn't even coming into the debate, I was just clarifying that Luke didn't destroy the Death Star just because he could or the X-wing could.

I was just merely saying the Annhilator is completely stupid imo being able to destroy a capital ship.

Well, being able to pierce the shields. It's not like it's a one-hit kill, they're just extremely nasty.

Specifically due to being Force Tech, I think the first use of force tech since the Rakatans.

Originally posted by Q99
Well, being able to pierce the shields. It's not like it's a one-hit kill, they're just extremely nasty.

Specifically due to being Force Tech, I think the first use of force tech since the Rakatans.

Even piercing it's shields seems dumb, but less so yes. I was literally thinking it was able to just one-shot them by comments of them here, because I was then thinking, what's the point of capital ships? So thanks for clarifying that.

Originally posted by carthage
Wasn't Centerpoint destroyed by the Legacy comics?
Originally posted by Emperordmb
It was, hence the "Not really relevant when it comes to Krayt" part. Just pointing out that the Death Stars were not the greatest superweapons.

It was in Legacy of the Force actually.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
I'm so done when a single fracking starfighter can take out a capital ship..

*cough* Executor *cough*

Anyway, it's a good fight. Krayt has the strongest Sith Order ever with him but Palpatine's military is apparently larger IIRC and he seems to have more brilliant commanders.