Well, good points. Either way though, Elder Kaio basically attributed Vegetto's strength to non potara specific factors.
And while it's true he absorbed Gotenks, that limits him to their specific fusion and limited knowledge of it. For all we know, a potara based Trunten wouldn't have been much more impressive..
Buu had faced Metamoran fusion firsthand--and with Piccolo's knowledge tacked onto his own, he was WELL aware of what it could produce. That's why Buuhan was confident that [Metamoran] fusion between Goku and Vegeta(ie. Gogeta) still wouldn't be enough to defeat him... Then Potara fusion was used instead, and Buuhan was effortlessly stomped by Vegetto.
Attribute the difference in power to whatever you'd like. My only point is that Potara/Vegetto>>Metamoran/Gogeta.
It is pretty simple when you think about it. Most ki-related transformations put a significant strain on the body, from Kai-o-ken to SSJ3. Given how Goku learns of the fusion technique, from some dude in the after life, the Metamoran fusion technique is ki related. Having to balance powers precisely, the time limit(similar to how Goku can only be SSJ3 for a limited amount of time), and it being based on a martial arts kata point to this. And, while it is non-canon, SSJ4 Gogeta also had the time limit drastically shortened due to the sheer amount of ki. The 30-minute limit is probably a design limit in the tech to prevent the bodies from harming themselves.
Now take the Potara fusion. It is created and sustained through magic, which works differently from ki. Monster Carrot, Dabura, Buu, and the Kaioshin all use magical techniques and it really doesn't put a strain on them. They just way their hands and magic happens. The Potara doesn't have that weakness because the body it creates is permanent(or is supposed to be). Without the strain of holding the body together, the newly created warrior would indeed fight better than one with such a strain.
Now of course this is just my supposition. Sufficient amounts of Ki can overpower magical limitations such as when Vegetto still beat up Buuhan as chocolate or when Elder Kai said that if Goku were Super Saiyan before fusing that it would tax the Potara body for the rest of his life. Magic and ki are complicated.
Originally posted by AuraAngelI've always attributed that 'feat' more to Vegetto's magical quality then anything. As you said: Potara fusion was developed by the Kaioshin, and is 100% magical--so it would only make sense for the being created by Potara to be magical by proxy. This is likely what made Vegetto immune to the full extent of Buu's magics. Yes, he was still transmuted into a tiny piece of candy, but he was able to inextricably retain his full power/sentience in that form... That just screams "magic" to me.
Sufficient amounts of Ki can overpower magical limitations such as when Vegetto still beat up Buuhan as chocolate
I'm sure the enormous amount of ki he possessed also played a factor... Just not as big of one, imo.
Originally posted by Galan007
Buu had faced Metamoran fusion firsthand--and with Piccolo's knowledge tacked onto his own, he was WELL aware of what it could produce. That's why Buuhan was confident that [Metamoran] fusion between Goku and Vegeta(ie. Gogeta) still wouldn't be enough to defeat him... Then Potara fusion was used instead, and Buuhan was effortlessly stomped by Vegetto.Attribute the difference in power to whatever you'd like. My only point is that Potara/Vegetto>>Metamoran/Gogeta.
Understood.
Personally, I think there's about as much room for dissgreement as there was with Ultra SSJ Trunks vs SSJ2 Gohan, but either way I'm thinking we're agreed Bills takes this.
Originally posted by cdtmI wouldn't liken it to that at all, as there is nothing to suggest that Metamoran generates the same amount of raw ki as Potara.
Understood.Personally, I think there's about as much room for dissgreement as there was with Ultra SSJ Trunks vs SSJ2 Gohan, but either way I'm thinking we're agreed Bills takes this.
By all accounts, Potara is far superior to Metamoran across the board.
Well, like I said, elder Kaioshin telling Kibitoshin Vegetto was strong because Goku and Vegeta are strong, plus have a strong rivalry, speaks more of strong characters creating strong fusions then of Potara creating strong fusions.
And while I agree with you that Potara magic probably accounts for Vegetto being able to somewhat resist magic, I disagree that Buu's opinion of what a normal fusion would produce after he absorbed Piccolo and Gotenks/Goten/Trunks absorbed is, indisputable evidence because they don't know very much about fusion themselves. Goku only had enough time to give them a crash course in performing the technique, and that's the only knowledge Buu would gain as well.
Huh? Piccolo personally trained Gotenks. He saw the power boost gleaned from Metamoran first hand. After absorbing Piccolo, Buu would have been privy to that knowledge as well. Aside from that, Buu had encountered Metamoran fusion firsthand in his battle with Gotenks. He also knew what it was capable of.
That said, Buuhan was definitely in a position to accurately quantify how powerful Goku/Vegeta would have become with Metamoran fusion... And he wasn't worried. At all. This tells us Buuhan>Gogeta.
I don't really see how this is arguable, tbh.
This assumes all fusions are alike, though. Trunks and Goten went from base SSJ , all the way to SSJ3. With more training, they might have taken it further and eclipsed Super Buu entirely.
There's no real proof Buu could analyze Goten and Trunks pre fusion, at base levels, and tell "hmm, they'll create a SSJ3 level fusion. I may be in trouble here.."
Goku and Vegeta's potara form was obviously far beyond SSJ3 Gotenks at base SSJ (And possibly at base, even if that was filler). Kibitoshin may not be an expert in Potara, but he saw enough of their powered up states to judge their fused form was well beyond what it should be.
And there's no real evidence that the potara has anything to do with it. Granted, there's no evidence either way, but that's why I say there's room for dissgreement..
Imo, it's a topic as nebulous as, say, whether the Thundercats are stronger then the Gargoyals, due to lack of solidly defined limits (Showing my age with this example. 🙂 )
You're putting too much thought into this. Akira Toriyama had Buuhan say that a Metamoran fusion between Goku and Vegeta wouldn't be enough to defeat him... And nothing proves Buu's assertion wrong.
You can speculate all you'd like, but in the end it comes down to an on-panel statement from a very credible character vs. your opinion... and the former wins every single time. 🙂
There's also the fact Kibito Kai was nothing to Super Buu.
Supreme Kai was likely stronger then the kids and closer to SSJ2 (As he contained supressed SSJ2 Gohan's power), and according to the 7th daizenzhuu, Kibito could contend with base Gohan. If the potata was really >> dance fusion, Kibito Kai should have been amped up to the point where he could at least hold his own for a bit against Buu, instead of being dismissed as not even worth a distraction.
Originally posted by cdtmAgain: Elder Kaioshin attributes Vegetto's unusually high power level to the fact that Goku and Vegeta were 2 of the most powerful beings in the universe, as well as rivals to boot. Obviously Potara doesn't glean the same results for everyone--that's why Goku commented that fusing with Mr. Satan would only weaken him, for example.
There's also the fact Kibito Kai was nothing to Super Buu.Supreme Kai was likely stronger then the kids and closer to SSJ2 (As he contained supressed SSJ2 Gohan's power), and according to the 7th daizenzhuu, Kibito could contend with base Gohan. If the potata was really >> dance fusion, Kibito Kai should have been amped up to the point where he could at least hold his own for a bit against Buu, instead of being dismissed as not even worth a distraction.
Additionally, Supreme Kaioshin was scarred shitless of Dabra's power--and Dabra~Cell. This tells us that Supreme Kaioshin was around the level of a FPSSJ, at the most. Kibito was likely far weaker than that. Furthermore, they wouldn't have received the rival boost when they fused... Of course Kibito Kai wasn't a threat to Super Buu. You remember how powerful Super Buu was, right? Even SSJ3 Goku was little more than a weak feeb by comparison.
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
What's wrong with the thread is the fact that Super Vegetto is already as strong as SSJG Goku, if not even stronger. And the fact that Gogeta is such a massive variable. Going by Fusion Reborn, he's obviously a lot stronger than SSJ3 Goku, but going by how a metamoran fusion between Goku and Vegeta SHOULD come out, they would maybe be twice as strong as Gotenks.Either way, this thread is silly, and if Vegetto can go SSJ2, he solo's Bills and Whiss at the same time.
Wrong again. thx effect veller👆
^ I already busted that non-canon power level...
Ryusei Nakao(the Japanese voice actor for Freeza) jokingly stated in an interview that Freeza's BP might be around 100 quintillion:
-By the way, how high do you suppose Freeza’s battle power has gotten now?
RN: He’s a nice guy, so maybe 100 quintillion?*Nakao is making a pun on Freeza being a “nice guy” (ナイスガイ; naisu gai) and his battle power being a “hundred quintillion” (垓; gai).
Aside from the joking nature of his statement, Nakao is also just a voice actor. He certainly isn't a in a position to 'canonize' a BP of that magnitude.
Originally posted by Galan007
Again: Elder Kaioshin attributes Vegetto's unusually high power level to the fact that Goku and Vegeta were 2 of the most powerful beings in the universe, as well as rivals to boot. Obviously Potara doesn't glean the same results for everyone--that's why Goku commented that fusing with Mr. Satan would only weaken him, for example.Additionally, Supreme Kaioshin was scarred shitless of Dabra's power--and Dabra~Cell. This tells us that Supreme Kaioshin was around the level of a FPSSJ, at the most. Kibito was likely far weaker than that. Furthermore, they wouldn't have received the rival boost when they fused... Of course Kibito Kai wasn't a threat to Super Buu. You remember how powerful Super Buu was, right? Even SSJ3 Goku was little more than a weak feeb by comparison.
SSJ3 Goku may have been, but Gotenks certainly was not. Even as a SSJ 1, he could fight Super Buu.
And both kids individually were barely above Android #16 level.
Lets say Grand Kai was ulra SSJ level. That's more then powerful enough to outright ignore every android in the Cell saga at the same time. Hell, even Vegeta's first amp is more powerful then the kids showed.
So, even with Kibito's weaker power, the >> amp you're suggesting should have at least bumped Kibito Kai into a form that two much, much weaker kids were able to attain with a weaker metamoran form, shouldn't it?
Originally posted by cdtma.) SSJ Gotenks>>SSJ3 Goku. Regardless, Gotenks still wasn't a legit threat to Super Buu at all until he went SSJ3--which is 8x> SSJ.
SSJ3 Goku may have been, but Gotenks certainly was not. Even as a SSJ 1, he could fight Super Buu.And both kids individually were barely above Android #16 level.
Lets say Grand Kai was ulra SSJ level. That's more then powerful enough to outright ignore every android in the Cell saga at the same time. Hell, even Vegeta's first amp is more powerful then the kids showed.
So, even with Kibito's weaker power, the >> amp you're suggesting should have at least bumped Kibito Kai into a form that two much, much weaker kids were able to attain with a weaker metamoran form, shouldn't it?
b.) The boys are a lot more powerful than you're giving them credit for. SSJ Goten was strong enough to nearly overwhelm FPSSJ Gohan when they sparred(Gohan even commented on his tremendous power.) Yes, Gohan was weaker at the time, but he still would have been WELL above #16-level as a FPSSJ... And Trunks was a bit more powerful than Goten. Even #18, with knowledge of the other Saiyans' power levels, was awestruck at how powerful one of 'Mighty Mask's' restrained blasts were during the WMAT(and this was after she had already figured out that Mighty Mask was actually the boys.) So yeah... They were both very, very powerful. I'd have them each ~/> Semi-Perfect Cell.
c.) Potara can fuse any two beings together, but in order for the end result to be as powerful as possible, the fusees have to be a perfect match. This, again, is why Goku's power would have actually decreased had he fused with Mr. Satan--they weren't an ideal match. That said, Kaioshin and Kibito certainly weren't a perfect match in the same way Goku and Vegeta were. Their power may have increased a bit after fusing, but judging by Elder Kaioshin's reaction, I doubt it was by much. I'd have KibitoKai's power < SSJ2-level, tbh.