Anakin, Obi-Wan, Ahsoka vs B-Team

Originally posted by Darth Luminous
Not always. Obi-Wan seems to get more proficient at fighting Grievous as the series goes on.

He also has more battles against Grievous to reference {which is, according to the ROTS script, the reason Obi-Wan was sent off against Grievous}. Fisto's only known encounter with the general was extremely impressive.

Originally posted by Darth Luminous
Obi-Wan was sent to Utapau before anyone knew there would be an imminent need to choose backup against Sidious.

Not really. They sent Yoda to Kashyyyk specifically to lure Sidious out of hiding and that was before Obi-Wan was sent after Grievous.

Originally posted by Darth Luminous
Not always. Obi-Wan seems to get more proficient at fighting Grievous as the series goes on.

Obi-Wan was sent to Utapau before anyone knew there would be an imminent need to choose backup against Sidious. When the time came he was unavailable.

Actually, they were luring Sidious out by sending Yoda to Kashyyyk, so they were actually hoping Sidious would attack.

Edit: Damn, Temp beat me.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm continuing to espouse a platform I've defended for a long time. 👆

Didn't you just waltz into a random thread in the EU section specifically to troll me? 😂

Yeah after you came in here and creepily mentioned my name without actually addressing me or my arguments as per usual..

You really are in complete denial of your own doings aren't you?Geez I honestly think you should seek professional help.

Like I said in the other thread, anytime you want a debate, I'll trash you as per usual.

But seriously quit the stalking. It's really disturbing.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I never said it did. I simply said we can use their respective performance/s against the same adversary to gauge their abilities. And in that light, Fisto performed on par with Obi-Wan. 👆

Not really. Considering Kenobi's come across Grievous many times, and Fisto once. So do you compare Kenobi's first performance against Grievous. Do you compare his best or his worst performance?

Or do we compare his ROTS Performance considering we know that was Peak Kenobi, and Peak Grievous. Even that wouldn't be fair, as Fisto didn't take on Peak Grievous.

Not only that but going by Filoni's words (the word of god as described by Tempest), Grievous is the worst medium to compare opponents against. As he has to be fought in a very particular manner. If that's done, he will be defeated by any Jedi, if not, he will be a massive threat to any Jedi.

So the grievous thing all you got? Or you gonna up your game?

T

Originally posted by The_Tempest
hat is indeed evidence. Obi-Wan was chosen to pursue Grievous while Fisto was kept in reserve against Sidious. But you're certainly free to think Grievous is a more formidable adversary than Sidious. 👆

LMAO.. The no.1 priority was to stop Grievous so Palpatine would have no more excuses to carry on the war, and that would draw out the Sith Lord.

So Kenobi was chosen for the no.1 priority, which required a Master with more experience than frigging Skywalker. The whole Council unanimously agreed Kenobi was the most Cunning and Tenacious Master on the Council, and that he should go.

Windu went on to compare Kenobi's sword prowess to his own.

So yeah. I think you need to go back to the ROTS Movie and Novel, but without those Kenobi hatred goggles. So you might see more clearly what was actually happening, and Why Kenobi was sent to Grievous (which actually couldn't have been made more clear for those of us without the Kenobi hating goggles).

Originally posted by The_Tempest
"brah" 😂

I'm still waiting for an actual decent argument here BRAH.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The naked hostility and regurgitating my affectionate epithets... you're fraying pretty rapidly.

I'm kicking your Kenobi hating butt. As per usual.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
TCuriously, nothing said by Filoni there puts Obi-Wan > Fisto. mmm

No but his statements clearly put Kenobi above S4 Maul and Opress combined.

mmm mmm

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Which means you're using evidence to draw conclusions otherwise not spelled out for your own argument. And yet the burden of proof should be higher for me? Hardly.

The burden of proof on you to put Fisto in the same Top-Tier League Kenobi has been placed in? Hell yeah.

Of course you can always go back to your "But he was beating Grievous" LMAO

Funny thing is you will cling back to that. Grasping for any straws you can as per usual.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's not my fault my case is stronger than yours. Once you calm down and breathe a bit, you'll understand. You always come around to my way of thinking anyway. 👆

😆

Then why am I kicking your butt as per usual?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What?

Feel free to point out the self contradiction.

For instance, Shii-Cho is inherently poor against Makashi; hence Fisto's decisive loss to Ventress. However it's also very strong against multiple blades or opponents; hence his decisive win over Grievous. Another example is that Drallig points out that it's almost impossible for a Niman practitioner to defeat one of Makashi (no doubt due to Niman's more generalist take on lightsaber combat, which would logically fall victim to a far more precision-based form like Makashi). It's also been noted that a Juyo practitioner is one of (or the only; the exact wording escapes) the only people who can break the defence of a Soresu practitioner because of it's sheer dedication to overwhelming strength, speed and ferocity. Ataru is weak against two or more opponents and only a true master of the form can compensate for this weakness. Soresu by itself will prove insufficient to end a fight against someone if that opponent doesn't tire out or make a mistake, because outside of those scenarios arising, it has little to no offensive properties. Djem So lacks mobility. Juyo leaves one exposed to being counter-attacked by Force attacks. The list goes on and on; form usage can drastically alter a combat situation depending on the circumstances.

It pleases me that you've plummeted so far into obvious e-rage. It's giving me quite the e-rection. excellent

DP
Not really. Considering Kenobi's come across Grievous many times, and Fisto once. So do you compare Kenobi's first performance against Grievous. Do you compare his best or his worst performance?

We can {and should!} compare Fisto's lone outing against any and all of Kenobi's.

DP
Or do we compare his ROTS Performance considering we know that was Peak Kenobi, and Peak Grievous. Even that wouldn't be fair, as Fisto didn't take on Peak Grievous.

Actually, the Grievous Fisto battled was so fresh we might as well have called him the Prince of Bel Air.

Brand new armor, hometurf advantage, and the benefit of backup. When Grievous battled Obi-Wan in ROTS, the state of his armor is unattested and he eschewed backup.

DP
Not only that but going by Filoni's words (the word of god as described by Tempest), Grievous is the worst medium to compare opponents against. As he has to be fought in a very particular manner. If that's done, he will be defeated by any Jedi, if not, he will be a massive threat to any Jedi.

Your point escapes me {and you as well, I think}.

In no way does Filoni claim or infer that Grievous is "the worst medium to compare opponents against." The only way that would be true is if Grievous were somehow susceptible to the exact same level of curbstomp from any opponent. In other words, if Ahsoka {a Padawan} could take on/take down Grievous as easily as a reputable Master {such as Kit or Obi-Wan}.

But that's not true. So he remains an effective measuring stick.

DP
LMAO.. The no.1 priority was to stop Grievous so Palpatine would have no more excuses to carry on the war, and that would draw out the Sith Lord.

Nonsense. The no.1 priority was to stop Sidious. Grievous was, in comparison, a relatively minor obstacle. 👆

DP
So Kenobi was chosen for the no.1 priority, which required a Master with more experience than frigging Skywalker. The whole Council unanimously agreed Kenobi was the most Cunning and Tenacious Master on the Council, and that he should go.

No, Fisto was chosen for the no.1 priority {stopping Sidious}. Obi-Wan was elected to tackle a low-rent flunky tbh.

DP
Windu went on to compare Kenobi's sword prowess to his own.

Actually, he implied that Obi-Wan's swordsmanship was superior to his and Yoda's. You're free to pursue that line of thought, if you wish. 😂

DP
So yeah. I think you need to go back to the ROTS Movie and Novel, but without those Kenobi hatred goggles. So you might see more clearly what was actually happening, and Why Kenobi was sent to Grievous (which actually couldn't have been made more clear for those of us without the Kenobi hating goggles).

I know why Obi-Wan was sent after Grievous. The question is: do you know why Fisto was kept in reserve against Sidious? mmm

DP
No but his statements clearly put Kenobi above S4 Maul and Opress combined.

You're free to show us all where Filoni puts Obi-Wan above S4 Maul and Opress combined. 👆

DP
The burden of proof on you to put Fisto in the same Top-Tier League Kenobi has been placed in? Hell yeah.

Of course you can always go back to your "But he was beating Grievous" LMAO

Funny thing is you will cling back to that. Grasping for any straws you can as per usual.

The burden of proof is for anyone who makes a claim, DP. 👆

You're drawing conclusions inferred from evidence. That's all well and good. The problem, however, is when you hold others to a higher standard regarding the burden of proof. Why, that's just downright hypocritical, if you ask me.

DP
Like I said in the other thread, anytime you want a debate, I'll trash you as per usual.

DP
I'm kicking your Kenobi hating butt. As per usual.

DP
Then why am I kicking your butt as per usual?

Your anger has clearly deepened, but you've got a long way to go before you can pull that off successfully. excellent

So after the last few pages I am not dissuaded that:

Originally posted by AncientPower
Kit Fisto = Obi-Wan Kenobi

Originally posted by The_Tempest
They sent Yoda to Kashyyyk specifically to lure Sidious out of hiding

Actually, they were luring Sidious out by sending Yoda to Kashyyyk

Says who?

Fisto was chosen for the no.1 priority {stopping Sidious}. Obi-Wan was elected to tackle a low-rent flunky tbh

Still nonsense. The Jedi had no idea that a fight with Sidious would happen before Obi-Wan got back. Fisto even says in the novel that he would feel better if either Yoda or Kenobi were there.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
{which is, according to the ROTS script, the reason Obi-Wan was sent off against Grievous}.

According to the ROTS script, what is the reason why Yoda was sent to Kashyyyk?

The ROTS novel explains that sending Yoda to Kashyyyk was a ploy by the council to lure Sidious out of hiding with the strongest Jedi Master far from Coruscant.

Kit wanting Obi-Wan to be present is irrelevant; obviously Kit would want all the help they could get when tackling the Sith Master. That doesn't mean anything as it pertains to this discussion.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The ROTS novel explains that sending Yoda to Kashyyyk was a ploy by the council to lure Sidious out of hiding with the strongest Jedi Master far from Coruscant.

Kit wanting Obi-Wan to be present is irrelevant; obviously Kit would want all the help they could get when tackling the Sith Master. That doesn't mean anything as it pertains to this discussion.

😂

I see you're grasping for Straws as per usual.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

Your point escapes me {and you as well, I think}.

In no way does Filoni claim or infer that Grievous is "the worst medium to compare opponents against." The only way that would be true is if Grievous were somehow susceptible to the exact same level of curbstomp from any opponent. In other words, if Ahsoka {a Padawan} could take on/take down Grievous as easily as a reputable Master {such as Kit or Obi-Wan}.

But that's not true. So he remains an effective measuring stick.

Oh really?

Either you haven't read all Filoni's commentary, or you purposefully turn a blind eye to what he says as it suits your own desires. I suspect the latter:

http://uk.ign.com/articles/2012/03/21/star-wars-the-clone-wars-looking-back-at-season-4?page=3

"I still don't believe that, at this point -- one-to-one -- that Grievous could really take out someone like Ventress in a lightsaber fight. I mean, it's just me, but he doesn't have the Force. He can't wield it. I don't see how he can hope to be as proficient as a Jedi or a Sith could be fighting with a lightsaber, which is why he's always willing to dirty play at the end of the day."

"Yeah, it's in the movie. Mace Windu says, "General Grievous will run and hide, as he always does." He's an interesting character for all that thought. And obviously, you know, he's adept at using lightsabers, but I always thought his thing was fear. If you are afraid of the many swirling blades, then you'll parish staring at them. But if you can just focus through it, you can defeat that opponent "

So in case you're not really comprehending what's written here due to your usual attempts to blind side yourself to 75% of what Filoni says, whilst desperately clinging onto the 25% of his statements you like, I'll explain.

Filoni (or word of god as per Tempest) is clearly saying here that ANY Jedi/Sith is capable of beating Grievous as long as he's fought the right way:

"I don't see how he can hope to be as proficient as a Jedi or a Sith could be fighting with a lightsaber, which is why he's always willing to dirty play at the end of the day."

On the other hand Filoni (word of god as per Tempest) clearly states that Grievous can be a major threat to ANY Jedi/Sith if they battle him the wrong way:

"I always thought his thing was fear. If you are afraid of the many swirling blades, then you'll parish staring at them."

And again, fight him the Right Way and:

"But if you can just focus through it, you can defeat that opponent"

So yeah according to Filoni (word of god as per Tempest) Grievous is definitely not a reliable medium as which to compare other Jedi with.

Funnier yet, he compares Grievous directly to Ventress saying he's below her in Sabers. The same Ventress who both Kenobi and Opress have proven themselves to be superior to. And again Filoni has clearly stated that Kenobi is superior to both end of S4 Maul and Opress combined. I can embarrass you with that piece of evidence as well if you like.

So yeah consider your ass kicked as per usual. I expect pages worth of biased speculation in response to this, and probably months worth of personal stalking.

DP
Like I said in the other thread, anytime you want a debate, I'll trash you as per usual.

DP
I'm still waiting for an actual decent argument here BRAH.

mmm

So says the guy who {kinda?} addressed exactly one of my many points before fleeing.

One might very well think that you're really not up for an actual debate here. 😂

DP
Oh really?

Either you haven't read all Filoni's commentary, or you purposefully turn a blind eye to what he says as it suits your own desires. I suspect the latter:

http://uk.ign.com/articles/2012/03/...season-4?page=3

"I still don't believe that, at this point -- one-to-one -- that Grievous could really take out someone like Ventress in a lightsaber fight. I mean, it's just me, but he doesn't have the Force. He can't wield it. I don't see how he can hope to be as proficient as a Jedi or a Sith could be fighting with a lightsaber, which is why he's always willing to dirty play at the end of the day."

"Yeah, it's in the movie. Mace Windu says, "General Grievous will run and hide, as he always does." He's an interesting character for all that thought. And obviously, you know, he's adept at using lightsabers, but I always thought his thing was fear. If you are afraid of the many swirling blades, then you'll parish staring at them. But if you can just focus through it, you can defeat that opponent "

So in case you're not really comprehending what's written here due to your usual attempts to blind side yourself to 75% of what Filoni says, whilst desperately clinging onto the 25% of his statements you like, I'll explain.

Filoni (or word of god as per Tempest) is clearly saying here that ANY Jedi/Sith is capable of beating Grievous as long as he's fought the right way:

"I don't see how he can hope to be as proficient as a Jedi or a Sith could be fighting with a lightsaber, which is why he's always willing to dirty play at the end of the day."

On the other hand Filoni (word of god as per Tempest) clearly states that Grievous can be a major threat to ANY Jedi/Sith if they battle him the wrong way:

"I always thought his thing was fear. If you are afraid of the many swirling blades, then you'll parish staring at them."

And again, fight him the Right Way and:

"But if you can just focus through it, you can defeat that opponent"

So yeah according to Filoni (word of god as per Tempest) Grievous is definitely not a reliable medium as which to compare other Jedi with.

Your conclusion has no basis in the evidence cited. Where does Filoni claim that Grievous is an unreliable standard for comparison?

Across 6 seasons of The Clone Wars, we see a considerable number of foes engage Grievous to varying degrees of success and failure. The only way Grievous wouldn't be an adequate medium for comparison is if anyone who engaged Grievous could defeat him with the same level of ease as any other potential fighter. {E.g., someone like Ahsoka beating Grievous's ass as thoroughly as someone like Yoda.}

But that's not what Filoni says nor is that what happens. So I can only conclude that this is a transparent attempt to invalidate Kit's performance against Grievous. Perhaps because it makes you uncomfortable to see that he performed so well against an opponent that Obi-Wan himself has been known to struggle with. mmm

DP
Funnier yet, he compares Grievous directly to Ventress saying he's below her in Sabers. The same Ventress who both Kenobi and Opress have proven themselves to be superior to.

That's funny? No one is suggesting Grievous is the equal of someone like Ventress, Obi-Wan, or Kit Fisto. He's obviously not. 👆

DP
And again Filoni has clearly stated that Kenobi is superior to both end of S4 Maul and Opress combined. I can embarrass you with that piece of evidence as well if you like.

I already invited you to provide the quote:

Me
You're free to show us all where Filoni puts Obi-Wan above S4 Maul and Opress combined. 👆

Curious that you've yet to actually do so and instead opt for bluster. mmm

DP
So yeah consider your ass kicked as per usual. I expect pages worth of biased speculation in response to this, and probably months worth of personal stalking.

Tangling with quan has definitely frazzled what little semblance of civility you had left. {protip: that drastic shift suggests that he's successfully gotten to you as a troll.} Your relative {and quick!} hostility with Selenial and your aggressiveness towards me are all wildly entertaining. I am well pleased by your transformation. excellent

But you've got a long way to go before you can successfully troll me, DP. {Besides, I remember how quickly you conformed to my stance on the whole Maul/Opress/Sidious platform despite aggressively arguing otherwise for months.} stoned

There was more to my post btw. Feel free to address it. 👆

“The warrior who would become Grievous receives cyborg implants, which grant him fighting prowess equal to that of a Jedi.” (P. 87)

"The leader of the Separatist army, General Grievous frequently crashes with the Republic’s Jedi generals. Even members of the Jedi Council struggle to challenge him.” (P. 86)

Source: Ultimate Star Wars

USW seems to have a different take on Grievous than Filoni.

👆

Originally posted by |King Joker|

Source: Ultimate Star Wars

USW seems to have a different take on Grievous than Filoni.

Yes but Filoni as per Tempest is word of god, so that's what I'm embarrassing his own arguments with.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
mmm

So says the guy who {kinda?} addressed exactly one of my many points before fleeing.

One might very well think that you're really not up for an actual debate here. 😂

I've given you clear evidence against your main point. You will simply ignore it as usual.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Your conclusion has no basis in the evidence cited.

LMAO

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Where does Filoni claim that Grievous is an unreliable standard for comparison?

Very clearly here:

"If you are afraid of the many swirling blades, then you'll parish staring at them. But if you can just focus through it, you can defeat that opponent"

^ He's given the exact reasons why any Jedi/Sith would defeat Grievous or be defeated by Grievous, which has almost nothing to do with their actual combat ability compared with other Jedi/Sith as he's clearly stated here:

"I don't see how he can hope to be as proficient as a Jedi or a Sith could be fighting with a lightsaber"

But by all means keep grasping for whatever straws you can, just like you've done for years since Filoni clearly stated Opress fought better than Fisto+Tiin+Kolar.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Across 6 seasons of The Clone Wars, we see a considerable number of foes engage Grievous to varying degrees of success and failure.

It's clearly explained above why that is. Try understanding what Filoni (word of god as per Tempest) is saying.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The only way Grievous wouldn't be an adequate medium for comparison is if anyone who engaged Grievous could defeat him with the same level of ease as any other potential fighter. {E.g., someone like Ahsoka beating Grievous's ass as thoroughly as someone like Yoda.}

Ahsoka wasn't even a fully trained Jedi. And yet even she managed to fight off Grievous one time. By your own medium of comparison Kenobi should be capable of stomping Grievous anytime he fights him. Which he actually is as per Filoni.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
But that's not what Filoni says nor is that what happens. So I can only conclude that this is a transparent attempt to invalidate Kit's performance against Grievous. Perhaps because it makes you uncomfortable to see that he performed so well against an opponent that Obi-Wan himself has been known to struggle with. mmm

Addressed very clearly above.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That's funny? No one is suggesting Grievous is the equal of someone like Ventress, Obi-Wan, or Kit Fisto. He's obviously not. 👆

So then you admit Kenobi solidly defeating Ventress in TCW Movie in and of itself is a far better showing than Fisto's performance against Grievous right?

Good. You're basically finishing my argument off for me.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I already invited you to provide the quote:

Curious that you've yet to actually do so and instead opt for bluster. mmm

That's pretty funny, because you've definitely asked me for that quote in the past, and I definitely provided it. You must have used your selective reading of Filoni's quotes as per usual:

Filoni (word of god as per Tempest) said regarding Kenobi getting subdued by Maul and Opress end of S4 this:

http://uk.ign.com/articles/2012/03/21/star-wars-the-clone-wars-looking-back-at-season-4?page=4

"There was an original version where, in the hologram, Savage was standing with Maul when they communicate with the Jedi Temple, but I said, "This really doesn't work if they're both there." Because [the Jedi] are not aware of the connection between them. So if he's not there, it's actually more believable that they could surprise Obi-Wan and actually take him out. That was a very difficult thing to set up to make you believe that they could take out Obi-Wan."

😆

Don't worry, I'm sure it's nothing he wouldn't say about Kit Fisto:

http://www.starwars.com/video/wrath-of-the-sith

1:24-1:32

"You know getting taken out by Sidious is pretty good, ranks up there.. He puts up a better fight than the Jedi Council did, I'll say that much for him."

Ooops!

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Tangling with quan has definitely frazzled what little semblance of civility you had left. {protip: that drastic shift suggests that he's successfully gotten to you as a troll.} Your relative {and quick!} hostility with Selenial and your aggressiveness towards me are all wildly entertaining. I am well pleased by your transformation. excellent

I see you've been following me all over KMC, checking who I'm talking, obsessing what I'm up to.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
But you've got a long way to go before you can successfully troll me, DP. {Besides, I remember how quickly you conformed to my stance on the whole Maul/Opress/Sidious platform despite aggressively arguing otherwise for months.} stoned

There was more to my post btw. Feel free to address it. 👆

Don't need to Trolll you. That's your game.

I just successfully kick your butt over and over and over.

excellent

(Would you mind addressing the rest of my argument before I respond to your post here? I'd like to give a complete rebuttal.)

Originally posted by The_Tempest
excellent

(Would you mind addressing the rest of my argument before I respond to your post here? I'd like to give a complete rebuttal.)

Ok later.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
“The warrior who would become Grievous receives cyborg implants, which grant him fighting prowess equal to that of a Jedi.” (P. 87)

"The leader of the Separatist army, General Grievous frequently crashes with the Republic’s Jedi generals. Even members of the Jedi Council struggle to challenge him.” (P. 86)

Source: Ultimate Star Wars

USW seems to have a different take on Grievous than Filoni.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes but Filoni as per Tempest is word of god, so that's what I'm embarrassing his own arguments with.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
"I mean, it's just me..."

Indeed. Filoni is a reliable source on various matters, but he's making it quite clear this is his opinion.

Not that that opinion supports DP's argument. Neither Kenobi nor Fisto were lacking in resolve, they were on the same level playing field. You need more than resolve to defeat Grievous, to defeat anybody, you need skill.

And aside from resolve that is all that contributed to their respective and similar victories.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
I know. Which is why I don't understand why people put so much weight into those comments, seeing as how it's just his opinion and now it is contradicted by official sources.