Vitiate, Exar Kun and HoT vs. Talzin, Caedus and Wyyrlok

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What exactly have Darths Sidious and Caedus demonstrated in person that is not rivaled or surpassed by Vitiate? Anything remarkable?

Nothing.

Vitiate's hype is not restricted to in-universe perceptions of his peers. He is promoted as the most powerful and dominant Force-user ever at official capacity in TOR era sources in general.

How Vitiate - once his story is complete - would be perceived in sources other then those of TOR era, we will never know; continuity split have squandered any chances for this assessment.

Canon dictums do not apply on Vitiate.

Sidious doesn't knows everything and Vitiate is not among the most well-known individuals. The archives are incom

plete.

Considering Legends continuity even, Sidious had ample knowledge of Darth Malgus's exploits and powers but not much about Vitiate.

You are terribly mistaken. Nathema ritual is the only known event in which Vitiate acquired assistance from others, but this was much earlier in his life. Vitiate continued to grow in power afterwards.

You don't know much about Vitiate. You have lot of catching up to do. Have you read my blogs concerning Vitiate?

Sidious has force storm and Caedus oneness. While I accept your opinion for vitiate I must respectfully disagree as cannon soucres go with Sidious and vitiate is really just some random person that they made who really is beaten by Sidious, however it's not a stomp but it's a win for Sidious with a 7/10 win IMO.

So to is Sidious is more cannon sources. Cannon beats TOR sources in general.

Cannon trumps anything vitiate says. If Lucas or Disney say Sidious is more powerful than that's just the way it is. Like Luke for instance, he is the most powerful force weilder ever has been and ever will be, no other force weilder can or will ever top him.

Well either way it goes he's material was destroyed during a link in the Rule of two Sidious recovered some if not a lot of it as one of the abilities lost was Essence transfer and he can do that. Also he can perform SITH rituals so he definitely,y has a knowledge of archaic things. I believe he has a knowlegde of all known SITH abilities.

Matters how as weren't Malgus and vitiate in the same era? Also this could translate that he knew something about who Malgus was under and thus would have some read on his power.

Well a ritual none the less so no I don't believe I'm mistaken for the instance that I've showed. While I'm willing to agree that vitiate grew more powerful I'm still of the popular opinion Sidious is more powerful.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate didn't choke someone in combat situation either, so should we assume that he cannot?

Versus scenarios aren't PIS or story-driven, they are neutral and all options are considered. Its not like that I am strictly assuming that Vitiate is a master of Force Drain powers and can consider them for offensive purposes, my argument is based on documented evidence. Situations are irrelevant. Vitiate utilizes Force Drain powers to fuel his own power and he have demonstratively consumed/killed many with such powers.

Again I didn't say he is incapable of drain.

Vitiate is capable of defeating anyone in his era with his lightning. If drain was an even more effective ability for him, he would have used it a lot since he is a big time drainer(even had a cult of worshipers for him to drain for centuries). So why didn't a guy who is so into draining others never used this ability in combat? Probably cause his lightning is more powerful and therefor more preferable for him in a combat situation.

Originally posted by Sinious
Again I didn't say he is incapable of drain.

Vitiate is capable of defeating anyone in his era with his lightning. If drain was an even more effective ability for him, he would have used it a lot since he is a big time drainer(even had a cult of worshipers for him to drain for centuries). So why didn't a guy who is so into draining others never used this ability in combat? Probably cause his lightning is more powerful and therefor more preferable for him in a combat situation.

For example, Vitiate one-shotted a Sith Strike Team led by Darth Lokess (an entire rebellious Dark Council) with an unexplained sorcery/technique. It is obvious that Vitiate could not afford to toy with opposition of such magnitude and rather had to act swiftly and utilize one of his most potent abilities to ensure his survival.

On Ziost, Vitiate created a Death Field and spread it across the planet after attempts were made to thwart his actions on this planet by Jedi and Sith. Vitiate's objective was to destroy all life on the planet and he decided his course of action accordingly.

---

As far as the lore is concerned, authors have to tell a story. If Vitiate is depicted going all-out in every situation then their would be no story to tell.

I have one problem here: Revan.

Vitiate failed to toy with him and he was more powerful when he faced Revan compared to when he one-shotted the Dark Council. So I'm inclined to believe that his unexplained sorcery is most likely not an attack he can instantaneously replicate anytime he wants and so it proves how capable Vitiate is with sorcery but it does't represent his true capabilities on even ground.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
As far as the lore is concerned, authors have to tell a story. If Vitiate is depicted going all-out in every situation then their would be no story to tell.

This is the case with Luke Skywalker - yet you shit all over him and try to lowball him when compared to Vitiate every chance you get.

Originally posted by Sinious
I have one problem here: Revan.

Vitiate failed to toy with him and he was more powerful when he faced Revan compared to when he one-shotted the Dark Council. So I'm inclined to believe that his unexplained sorcery is most likely not an attack he can instantaneously replicate anytime he wants and so it proves how capable Vitiate is with sorcery but it does't represent his true capabilities on even ground.

Revan >>> Nihilus though bro.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Revan >>> Nihilus though bro.

Hmm?

Meetra says that Mando Wars Revan has a better command of the Force than any she had met. Darth Revan gets stronger than Mando Revan, Malak gets stronger than Darth Revan, Malak gets massively boosted by the Star Forge, Prodigal Knight Revan beats his ass over and over then recovers his memory and gets stronger as Revan Reborn and gets smacked down by Vitiate.

So actually it's Vitiate >> Revan > Revan >> Malak > Malak > Revan > Revan > Malak > Nihilus. >>>>> Meetra > Kreia.

Duh. 🙄

Originally posted by Nephthys
Meetra says that Mando Wars Revan has a better command of the Force than any she had met. Darth Revan gets stronger than Mando Revan, Malak gets stronger than Darth Revan, Malak gets massively boosted by the Star Forge, Prodigal Knight Revan beats his ass over and over then recovers his memory and gets stronger as Revan Reborn and gets smacked down by Vitiate.

So actually it's Vitiate >> Revan > Revan >> Malak > Malak > Revan > Revan > Malak > Nihilus. >>>>> Meetra > Kreia.

Duh. 🙄

Ohhhh of course!

Well in that case, Vitiate > Ones confirmed. 😎

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Sidious has force storm and Caedus oneness.

Darth Caedus's oneness experience is a one time event. It is not something that can be considered for versus scenarios.

If you are highlighting greatest Force abilities then keep in mind that Vitiate have command of Force Drain powers with which he can ravage entire worlds. No, I am not referring to developments on Medriaas (i.e. Nathema); I am referring to developments on Ziost.

Among Sidious, Caedus, and Vitiate, only Vitiate have on-screen and concrete demonstration of ravaging an entire world with his powers.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
While I accept your opinion for vitiate I must respectfully disagree as cannon soucres go with Sidious and vitiate is really just some random person that they made who really is beaten by Sidious, however it's not a stomp but it's a win for Sidious with a 7/10 win IMO.

In Canon continuity, Vitiate doesn't exists. Sidious's standing in canon is irrelevant for Vitiate due to this reason.

In Legends continuity, Sidious have considerable hype in sources predating introduction of Vitiate to the mythos. After the latter development (i.e. introduction of Vitiate to the mythos), Sidious's hype is no more apparent. You won't find a source that covers both Vitiate and Sidious in great detail and promotes Sidious as the most powerful Force-user or practitioner of the dark side. No such source exists.

I shall make one thing clear to you; its not that I don't take Sidious's hype seriously. My point of contention is that consistency in promotion of a character is important for a lore that continuously expands with passage of time and that we need to look further then hype to evaluate characters. If Vitiate can ravage an entire world with his powers and Sidious haven't matched this feat then Vitiate deserves the benefit of doubt for being relatively superior. Aside from powers, Vitiate have grown in power in a span of centuries. It is unrealistic to assume that Vitiate will be weaker then a 60 year old mortal individual after such span of growth in power. I am just being realistic.

Aside from hype, we have feats and accomplishments to consider for evaluation. And Vitiate have superior feats and accomplishments then Sidious. This is what I am trying to tell you.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
So to is Sidious is more cannon sources. Cannon beats TOR sources in general.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Cannon trumps anything vitiate says. If Lucas or Disney say Sidious is more powerful than that's just the way it is. Like Luke for instance, he is the most powerful force weilder ever has been and ever will be, no other force weilder can or will ever top him.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Well either way it goes he's material was destroyed during a link in the Rule of two Sidious recovered some if not a lot of it as one of the abilities lost was Essence transfer and he can do that. Also he can perform SITH rituals so he definitely,y has a knowledge of archaic things. I believe he has a knowlegde of all known SITH abilities.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Matters how as weren't Malgus and vitiate in the same era? Also this could translate that he knew something about who Malgus was under and thus would have some read on his power.

Gnost Dural, a famous Jedi historian, once stated that Vitiate is shrouded in mystery and not much is known about him and his exploits in the galaxy at large. It is possible that the Jedi Order attempted to conceal Vitiate's actions from the public and/or destroyed records featuring him so that no one is able to benefit from such information in the future.

Plagueis clearly had some knowledge on Vitiate's abilities.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Plagueis clearly had some knowledge on Vitiate's abilities.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You need to differentiate between Canon and Legends Darth Sidious first. Canon Sidious doesn't have knowledge of Force Storm.

Darth Caedus's oneness experience is a one time event. It is not something that can be considered for versus scenarios.

If you are highlighting greatest Force abilities then keep in mind that Vitiate have command of Force Drain powers with which he can ravage entire worlds. No, I am not referring to developments on Medriaas (i.e. Nathema); I am referring to developments on Ziost.

Among Sidious, Caedus, and Vitiate, only Vitiate have on-screen and concrete demonstration of ravaging an entire world with his powers.

You need to understand the difference between Legends and Canon continuities.

In Canon continuity, Vitiate doesn't exists. Sidious's standing in canon is irrelevant for Vitiate due to this reason.

In Legends continuity, Sidious have considerable hype in sources predating introduction of Vitiate to the mythos. After the latter development (i.e. introduction of Vitiate to the mythos), Sidious's hype is no more apparent. You won't find a source that covers both Vitiate and Sidious in great detail and promotes Sidious as the most powerful Force-user or practitioner of the dark side. No such source exists.

I shall make one thing clear to you; its not that I don't take Sidious's hype seriously. My point of contention is that consistency in promotion of a character is important for a lore that continuously expands with passage of time and that we need to look further then hype to evaluate characters. If Vitiate can ravage an entire world with his powers and Sidious haven't matched this feat then Vitiate deserves the benefit of doubt for being relatively superior. Aside from powers, Vitiate have grown in power in a span of centuries. It is unrealistic to assume that Vitiate will be weaker then a 60 year old mortal individual after such span of growth in power. I am just being realistic.

Aside from hype, we have feats and accomplishments to consider for evaluation. And Vitiate have superior feats and accomplishments then Sidious. This is what I am trying to tell you.

See above

Canon argument is covered above. Mr. Lucas and Disney haven't made such declarations.

These are Legends continuity related developments. Sidious did focus on exploring the dark side to great extent but him having knowledge of all known Sith abilities is stretching it.

Yes, they co-existed. Their is no official information about Sidious having knowledge of Vitiate's capabilities and power.

Gnost Dural, a famous Jedi historian, once stated that Vitiate is shrouded in mystery and not much is known about him and his exploits in the galaxy at large. It is possible that the Jedi Order attempted to conceal Vitiate's actions from the public and/or destroyed records featuring him so that no one is able to benefit from such information in the future.

Well to make it fair for everyone we will stick with the legends Sidious, so he and vitiate are on the same playing field. Let's begin. Well all depends on his state I believe as wasn't he capable of it when he was a Jedi but when turned to a SITH was unable to. However it is a feat and an extrordinary one so yes we are going to use that one.

Now as you suggested I read your respect thread for vitiate. I also read a respect thread for Sidious. To tell you truth I was impressed with your work and must say good job man. However based on the comparison, Vitiate hasn't really got anything on Sidious. For example I know this is not what you're looking for but let's compare first tries. Vitiate needed 8000 SITH and 10 days of preparation to drain a planet on his first try. Sidious needed himself and much less time. 20 billion people he mind controlled with seemingly little effort.

As we are going by legends IMO only video games don't really count as they create powers and boost them to levels fit for the game, not to the cannon or legends continuity.

I do understand the difference so we will stick with legends. Well that's why we have proof, and just a side note that maybe why legends didn't bother with it as cannon had already said who was the better SITH. While both are powerful I must say that vitiate isn't the greatest practioner of the dark side ever. The Son is there, Abeloth, The Father, and Sidious all stand in his way.

Realistic hmm. See now I think you are behind on Sidious. As before Dark Empire he was able to cause a storm to appear on Vjun just as a holograph. While vitiate Dramund Kass was always encased in clouds of energy due to his rituals. Which is greater someone who can create a storm without the need to physically be on the planet or someone who uses rituals which causes that planet to appear in the way it does? Also this was done again before his prime. Also he was also able to absorb and ravage a world and keep the people(20 billion) under his control. Also his force storms were able to ravage the surface of worlds and rip holes in the galaxy. Pretty impressive.

Now what I'm telling you is your days of putting vitiate in a pedestal and keeping Sidious down is over.

Are you sure. There have been plenty of sources. You should check sidious' respect thread.

Then what logic do you have he doesn't have the ability to know all known SITH abilities especially by the time of DE. He had plagues as his master someone who delved very deeply into the dark side and also had the tilted plagues the wise and has produced the most powerful SITH lord of all time. Also during his 20+ years as emperor what do you think he was doing all that time. Exploring the dark side even further. So yes it's very plausible that he knows all SITH abilities and also it is stated that he has a knowledge of all SITH abilities and makes up ones at his pleasure.

There is nothing against it either. As the Rule of two was basically 1000 years of knowledge not from each other but form the Jedi and past SITH which would include vitiate. Also didn't Darth Bane the founder of the rule of two become inspired due to a Holocron from Darth Revan? Revan and vitiate were in the same time span as vitiate spanned for 4000+ years. So yes it definitely highly possible if not so that Sidious has knowledge or at the least some knowledge of who vitiate is and what his power was.

Well that seem to stop Sidious from learning many arcane SITH abilities which vitiate would have no doubt used or even made himself. What era was this Jedi. Was he during vitiates era or Sidious?