Originally posted by Flyattractor
[b]With No "FF" the Helmet is removable and Jonn is way way, wwwwaaayyyyy smarter then marko so yeah. No "FF" Helmet is coming off and One Old Fashioned DC Mind Rape later. MM wins. Juggy is in the corner pissing himself and clucking like a chicken. [/B]
This is moot though as Cain does have his forcefield.
And I can only clearly recall one time Cain was effected with his helmet on. And that was by Psylocke. Any other time it's been a mad dash to get the helmet off so they can actually do something to him.
Originally posted by KingD19
This is moot though as Cain does have his forcefield.And I can only clearly recall one time Cain was effected with his helmet on. And that was by Psylocke. Any other time it's been a mad dash to get the helmet off so they can actually do something to him.
So basically with "FF" on...its a SPITE THREAD!
Close it now Mr.Mod.
Originally posted by ODG
Vision looked like he was phasing through him once. Hasn't Kitty phased through him?
I don't recall him ever even fighting Vision. Scans?
And the only time I can think of Kitty phasing through him in from X-Men Evolution the cartoon.
And if these fights did happen, is there evidence he actually had his forcefield on?
I know he can be phased through, but what I'm asking is if there's proof he can phase through the OP forcefield.
Originally posted by KingD19http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Hulk%20Fights%20A-E/HulkvsAvengers57403.jpg
I don't recall him ever even fighting Vision. Scans?
Originally posted by KingD19I usually assume characters that have used forcefields tend to be using them by default. And any portrayal that could be seen either way is probably a general portrayal of overall durability that can include forcefields.
And the only time I can think of Kitty phasing through him in from X-Men Evolution the cartoon.And if these fights did happen, is there evidence he actually had his forcefield on?
I know he can be phased through, but what I'm asking is if there's proof he can phase through the OP forcefield.
I think parsing Marko's appearances between when he has his forcefield on and off is somewhat pedantic. I just assume that different writers have differing ways on portraying his invulnerability and unstoppability. Sure, sometimes it's portrayed as an actual field that repulses objects. But sometimes it's just portrayed as an invisible magical rule of law (like Mjolnir's worthiness enchantment). And other times, it's portrayed as just overwhelming power that simulates invulnerability/unstoppability.
Originally posted by ODG
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Hulk%20Fights%20A-E/HulkvsAvengers57403.jpg I usually assume characters that have used forcefields tend to be using them by default. And any portrayal that could be seen either way is probably a general portrayal of overall durability that can include forcefields.I think parsing Marko's appearances between when he has his forcefield on and off is somewhat pedantic. I just assume that different writers have differing ways on portraying his invulnerability and unstoppability. Sure, sometimes it's portrayed as an actual field that repulses objects. But sometimes it's just portrayed as an invisible magical rule of law (like Mjolnir's worthiness enchantment). And other times, it's portrayed as just overwhelming power that simulates invulnerability/unstoppability.
His force field is a bonus to his invulnerability and unstoppability. It's treated as a completely separate power. As pointed out in the issue when Thor cancelled his forcefield and then they fought for 60 seconds until it came back.
And when he's had his force field, it's a barrier that keeps anything from touching him. After a while writer's just apparently forgot about it because he hasn't had it shown visibly or mentioned in years. But Vision phasing through him doesn't prove he can get through his forcefield.
Originally posted by KingD19I dunno. The lack of the forcefield basically equated to him losing his invulnerability and unstoppability, so I interpret it the exact opposite from you.
His force field is a bonus to his invulnerability and unstoppability. It's treated as a completely separate power. As pointed out in the issue when Thor cancelled his forcefield and then they fought for 60 seconds until it came back.
Originally posted by KingD19Juggernaut's schtick is no-selling things whether they bounce off his forcefield or his mystic armor. But you're right, writers haven't focused on his force-field for years. Yet that hasn't stopped him from being portrayed as invulnerable and unstoppable though. So maybe the force-field depiction just became unnecessary. And if it's unnecessary, then there isn't much point to keep focusing on its presence or lack thereof.
And when he's had his force field, it's a barrier that keeps anything from touching him. After a while writer's just apparently forgot about it because he hasn't had it shown visibly or mentioned in years. But Vision phasing through him doesn't prove he can get through his forcefield.
If that holds true in the comics, it should probably hold true in a vs. thread.
Originally posted by ODG
I dunno. The lack of the forcefield basically equated to him losing his invulnerability and unstoppability, so I interpret it the exact opposite from you. Juggernaut's schtick is no-selling things whether they bounce off his forcefield or his mystic armor. But you're right, writers haven't focused on his force-field for years. Yet that hasn't stopped him from being portrayed as invulnerable and unstoppable though. So maybe the force-field depiction just became unnecessary. And if it's unnecessary, then there isn't much point to keep focusing on its presence or lack thereof.If that holds true in the comics, it should probably hold true in a vs. thread.
No it really hasn't. He's had low showings, but even without the forcefield outside of PIS(like Vision potentially being able to hurt him, or Deadpool cutting his eyes out, etc...) his invulnerability/durability has remained pretty high end. Like tanking every hit from WWH, or getting knocked into space by Skaar after charging his Old Power. He doesn't get hurt, just inconvenienced and BFR'd.
And his unstoppability was never in question. It's always been there as he is the embodiment of raw force and irresistible will or some such. Basically if he's moving, you don't stop him, he does. Even WWH was getting pushed back the moment Juggernaut manned up and got his powers back.
The force field is important because as I mentioned, it's a completely separate thing. He's invulnerable, and the force field was there to make it even more so or just keep stuff from touching him. So without it there's no doubt Vision could phase into him as he has no defense against stuff like that. But with it, there needs to be proof that Manhunter can phase through a forcefield for him to be able to do so. We can't just say, "Well it happened without the forcefield, it'll probably work with it too."
Originally posted by KingD19That's the point. With or without the writer acknowledging the presence of a forcefield, he's still the invulnerable, unstoppable Juggernaut. Same character. And when writers decide to acknowledge the force-field and explicitly strip it from him, he's no longer invulnerable or unstoppable.
his invulnerability/durability has remained pretty high end
Taken as a whole, the force-field distinction is a meaningless one.
Originally posted by ODG
That's the point. With or without the writer acknowledging the presence of a forcefield, he's still the invulnerable, unstoppable Juggernaut. Same character. And when writers decide to acknowledge the force-field and explicitly strip it from him, he's no longer invulnerable or unstoppable.Taken as a whole, the force-field distinction is a meaningless one.
It doesn't work that way. It is stated Juggernaut has a FF. It has been shown in comics for years. If they don't draw it I assume it isn't up. It's the opposite of what you think. neither of us is wrong. Until Marvel tells me he no longer has a FF to display I will continue to need to see it. He is very durable without a FF, but he is hardly unstoppable. With his FF he has a different power set. Without it he is a different character. The Thor issue proved that right on the paper.
In a forum fight Juggs would use his FF.
Originally posted by ODG
That's the point. With or without the writer acknowledging the presence of a forcefield, he's still the invulnerable, unstoppable Juggernaut. Same character. And when writers decide to acknowledge the force-field and explicitly strip it from him, he's no longer invulnerable or unstoppable.Taken as a whole, the force-field distinction is a meaningless one.
How can it be meaningless when things would happen much differently depending on if he had it or not? His force field flat out stopped Thor's fist and kept him from getting stuck in that cement pit Spidey tricked him into. Pretty much every encounter he had from when the force field stopped being written would be vastly different if he still had it.
And that's just wrong. The one time it was removed, by Thor's enchantment, they wrote it as the Forcefield being the source of his invulnerability, and without it, while still pretty tough, it was nowhere near his normal levels. Which has been proven wrong before and after based on feats and showings. Like his fight with Stonecutter, the only Examplar nearly as strong as him. Their hits were literally shaking the world and splitting the sky. Cain was fine. When he fought Thor in that same arc, he took a full force Mjolnir hit to the chest and laughed it off. And this was after his force field ceased to be a thing.
And his unstoppability has never been in question. It's never gone away. As long as he's been the Juggernaut, he's been unstoppable in the sense that once he gets moving, you can't physically stop him.
All I'm asking is if there's any feats of Manhunter specifically phasing through a force field. If there is, I'll concede. If not, I say he can't do anything to Cain because of the forcefield. OP explicitly has it on, so there's no point in arguing really. It's in effect here.
