Martian Manhunter vs Juggernaut (Classic)

Originally posted by Hyperion Prime
It doesn't work that way. It is stated Juggernaut has a FF. It has been shown in comics for years. If they don't draw it I assume it isn't up. It's the opposite of what you think. neither of us is wrong. Until Marvel tells me he no longer has a FF to display I will continue to need to see it. He is very durable without a FF, but he is hardly unstoppable. With his FF he has a different power set. Without it he is a different character. The Thor issue proved that right on the paper.

In a forum fight Juggs would use his FF.

That one issue displayed his powers wrong. Like I said, he's taken far more punishment without the field being displayed/having lost it and not even broken a sweat.

Originally posted by KingD19
How can it be meaningless when things would happen much differently depending on if he had it or not? His force field flat out stopped Thor's fist and kept him from getting stuck in that cement pit Spidey tricked him into. Pretty much every encounter he had from when the force field stopped being written would be vastly different if he still had it.

And that's just wrong. The one time it was removed, by Thor's enchantment, they wrote it as the Forcefield being the source of his invulnerability, and without it, while still pretty tough, it was nowhere near his normal levels. Which has been proven wrong before and after based on feats and showings. Like his fight with Stonecutter, the only Examplar nearly as strong as him. Their hits were literally shaking the world and splitting the sky. Cain was fine. When he fought Thor in that same arc, he took a full force Mjolnir hit to the chest and laughed it off. And this was after his force field ceased to be a thing.

And his unstoppability has never been in question. It's never gone away. As long as he's been the Juggernaut, he's been unstoppable in the sense that once he gets moving, you can't physically stop him.

All I'm asking is if there's any feats of Manhunter specifically phasing through a force field. If there is, I'll concede. If not, I say he can't do anything to Cain because of the forcefield. OP explicitly has it on, so there's no point in arguing really. It's in effect here.

Excellent post.

Originally posted by KingD19
That one issue displayed his powers wrong. Like I said, he's taken far more punishment without the field being displayed/having lost it and not even broken a sweat.

I get what you are saying. But that issue proved even more that JUGGS FF matters. People want to act like it doesn't make a difference. His FF adds to his incredible durability.

A little miscommunication about Juggernaut's powers and he turns into a mess.

Do we assume the most popular showing of his force field is the correct one and therefore retroactively add it into every appearance to make his durability make sense. IE he always has it up?

Or do we ignore that one and just assume it's extra durability whenever he needs it? IE he's supposed to be as durable as he is in showings where he has his forcefield but he can bring it up to get more which makes us kind of ignore some things...

Or option six, and we assume Thor pulled some extra hoodoo shit on him and took away a little bit more than just his forcefield? I mean it did say "magic" as a whole. This one would be the best for not being conflicting.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
A little miscommunication about Juggernaut's powers and he turns into a mess.

Do we assume the most popular showing of his force field is the correct one and therefore retroactively add it into every appearance to make his durability make sense. IE he always has it up?

Or do we ignore that one and just assume it's extra durability whenever he needs it? IE he's supposed to be as durable as he is in showings where he has his forcefield but he can bring it up to get more which makes us kind of ignore some things...

Or option six, and we assume Thor pulled some extra hoodoo shit on him and took away a little bit more than just his forcefield? I mean it did say "magic" as a whole. This one would be the best for not being conflicting.

I look at it this way. Juggs is durable and unstoppable as hell. He has a FF but rarely uses it.. no need to. Thor is not the X-Men, Hulk or Spiderman. He needed his FF for Thor. Thor is a god after all. My problem is though people want to act like Juggernaut no longer has a FF so their character gets the win.

Originally posted by Hyperion Prime
I get what you are saying. But that issue proved even more that JUGGS FF matters. People want to act like it doesn't make a difference. His FF adds to his incredible durability.

I agree with you. I said in a previous post that he's already invulnerable/super durable. But the force field makes it invulnerable+. It's like you're already in a tank. And then you turn on a force field generator.

I also agree that I believe he still has it. He did lose some of his crazy powers in Eternity's dimension, but his FF seemed pretty concrete in his power set. I think he still has it, but his durability is just so high that the writer's forget about it or don't think it necessary. Maybe he'll show it again now that his power is boosted by Cyttorak.

Originally posted by carver9
Jugz

Originally posted by zopzop

No FF is up in that issue. Vision is not breaking a FF that Thor could only get through with magic disruption. Juggs won't make that mistake again with Vision. 🙂

Originally posted by Hyperion Prime
It doesn't work that way. It is stated Juggernaut has a FF. It has been shown in comics for years. If they don't draw it I assume it isn't up. It's the opposite of what you think. neither of us is wrong. Until Marvel tells me he no longer has a FF to display I will continue to need to see it. He is very durable without a FF, but he is hardly unstoppable. With his FF he has a different power set. Without it he is a different character. The Thor issue proved that right on the paper.

In a forum fight Juggs would use his FF.

Originally posted by KingD19
OP explicitly has it on, so there's no point in arguing really. It's in effect here.

Originally posted by ODG
In a forum fight Juggernaut would be Juggernaut. He's virtually invulnerable and unstoppable whether or not the writers acknowledge he uses a force-field or not. His forcefield was directly responsible for his invulnerability/unstoppability when we saw it. And so it is his invulnerability/unstoppability. It's just another way of portraying it. So it's always on unless he's been explicitly depowered. Which is a pointless distinction.

In a forum fight Juggs is not PIS/CIS so he has his FF on. If you just want Juggs to fight stupid please just say it so we can move on to something else.

Originally posted by Hyperion Prime
In a forum fight Juggs is not PIS/CIS so he has his FF on. If you just want Juggs to fight stupid please just say it so we can move on to something else.

All you have is some scenes where his virtual invulnerability/unstoppability was depicted as being a forcefield. But that didn't prevent Juggernaut in the vast majority of all his other scenes where no forcefield was drawn from being invulnerable and unstoppable anyway.

Originally posted by ODG
You act like you have any evidence that Juggernaut has ever consciously turned off his invulnerability/unstoppability and is therefore actually fighting stupid. You have no such evidence.

All you have is some scenes where his virtual invulnerability/unstoppability was depicted as being a forcefield. But that didn't prevent Juggernaut in the vast majority of all his other scenes where no forcefield was drawn from being invulnerable and unstoppable anyway.

One is his natural Durability

The other is His FF that increase his durability when his natural durability isn't enough. Others have tried to explain it to you.

Originally posted by Hyperion Prime
One is his natural Durability

The other is His FF that increase his durability when his natural durability isn't enough. Others have tried to explain it to you.

No other cl100 character has done that.

Which means, in the 99% of his other appearances where we don't see a forcefield but a cl100 is pounding on him and barely denting him, than his forcefield was on. If it was off, those cl100s would have shredded his armor otherwise.

Originally posted by Hyperion Prime
One is his natural Durability

The other is His FF that increase his durability when his natural durability isn't enough. Others have tried to explain it to you.

Originally posted by ODG
When there is no forcefield on, Thor can easily shred his armor like paper with his bare hands .

No other cl100 character has done that.

Which means, in the 99% of his other appearances where we don't see a forcefield but a cl100 is pounding on him and barely denting him, than his forcefield was on. If it was off, those cl100s would have shredded his armor otherwise.

His armor is just clothes. It doesn't provide any extra durability aside from the helmet which blocks telepathy. Colossus has ripped it right off before.

Originally posted by ODG
In a forum fight Juggernaut would be Juggernaut. He's virtually invulnerable and unstoppable whether or not the writers give a sh1t about remembering about his forcefield or not. His forcefield was directly responsible for his invulnerability/unstoppability when we saw it. And so, the forcefield is his invulnerability/unstoppability. It's just another way of portraying it. So it's always on unless he's been explicitly depowered. So it's a pointless distinction.

Ok could you stop saying unstoppability = force field. That's just plainly wrong.

And we've seen the force field several times. Only once was it explicitly stated to be the source of his durability(wrongly as shown multiple other times). And even then, he fought Thor for a full 60 seconds with lower than average durability due to them writing his powers wrong.

Originally posted by KingD19
His armor is just clothes. It doesn't provide any extra durability aside from the helmet which blocks telepathy. Colossus has ripped it right off before.

So have Nimrod and Hulk. They both have damaged the armor. Nimrod and hulk have knocked off the helmet of a Juggs without his FF up.

Originally posted by KingD19
Ok could you stop saying unstoppability = force field. That's just plainly wrong.

Originally posted by Hyperion Prime
So have Nimrod and Hulk. They both have damaged the armor. Nimrod and hulk have knocked off the helmet of a Juggs without his FF up.

Originally posted by beatboks
and yet when Thor used Mjilnor to strip him of his FF this natural durability no longer existed. This is the point ODGis making. If you take the consistency of his showings his FF is his durability, period.

Originally posted by ODG
They've knocked it off. They've never utterly shredded it with a single left cross.

But yet they did knock it off his head. If you think they were able to knock off Juggs helmet while the FF is up I guess you are saying that Nimrod and Hulk are greater than Cyttorak. I guess Hulk can lift Thor's hammer.

Originally posted by Hyperion Prime
But yet they did knock it off his head.

Originally posted by Hyperion Prime
If you think they were able to knock off Juggs helmet while the FF is up I guess you are saying that Nimrod and Hulk are greater than Cyttorak. I guess Hulk can lift Thor's hammer.