Is it a sin to seek knowledge?

Started by Stoic3 pages
Originally posted by Bentley
No war in heaven then?

QUESTION: When was Satan cast out of heaven like LIGHTNING and made to FALL to earth?

ANSWER: One denomination believes God cast out his adversary Satan from heaven in 1914 when WORLD WAR I started! This is, however, clearly not true. Though no doubt a pivotal year in world history, the great tribulation did not start at that time nor did the Second Coming occur. The devil clearly was removed from heaven many years prior to 1914 A.D.

One foundational Bible verse that gives us a time frame for when Satan was cast out of heaven is in the verse you refer to in your question. In Luke 10:18: And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Jesus stated he personally witnessed this momentous event which occurred with all the quickness and power of lightning. He was literally ejected from God's throne long before what happened in Genesis 1:2 (1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.) took place.

Satan's revolt took place when he was on the earth. Our Maker states, in Isaiah 14: 12-15 How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! 13 You said in your heart, “I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon. 14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.” 15 But you are brought down to the realm of the dead, to the depths of the pit., that he planned to ASCEND to the third heaven where his throne resided (meaning he was not already there!). And what would our Father's adversary DO once he arrived at the very center of all power and authority? He would mount on all-out assault, with his army of demonic followers, to FORCIBLY take control of God's throne so that he could rule everything.

Before his rebellion and sin, Lucifer's position as a powerful covering cherub (a special class of angels), right over the throne of the universe, is confirmed in Ezekiel 28:14-15 14You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. 15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you.

While still obedient, God put him on the earth with certain responsibilities. He then, with one third of all the angels that existed, decided to rebel against God (Revelation 12:3 - 4). God tossed Satan from his heavenly abode when he and his angels arrived to attack it, as Jesus witnessed.

It does appear, however, that the devil will once again try to rise up from the earth to attack God's headquarters, only to get thrown down yet again (Revelation 12:7 - 9). 1914 is far too long ago for Lucifer's second attempt, with his twisted helpers known as demons, to try to take control of the entire universe.

The second of three attempts Satan will try to rule creation (the third being after the millennium when he is loosed for a season - see Revelation 20:7- 9) will happen at the very end of what the Bible calls the Great Tribulation, just prior to Jesus' return to earth! If some teach this event happened in a particular year they are flat WRONG. Christ simply did not come back to the earth secretly or otherwise in 1914 or in any other year for that matter.

On a final note, many believe that the angels and the devil are not capable of dying because they are spirit beings and immortal. However, angels (especially fallen ones) know they CAN be put to death!

We can draw the following conclusions from Jesus' statements in Mark 1:23 - 25. The first conclusion is that Evil spirits know that their destruction is possible. The second is some evil spirits know they are going to die for their rebellion. The last conclusion is that Jesus has the power to destroy evil spirits.

One foundational Bible verse that gives us a time frame for when Satan was cast out of heaven is in the verse you refer to in your question. In Luke 10:18: And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Jesus stated he personally witnessed this momentous event which occurred with all the quickness and power of lightning. He was literally ejected from God's throne long before what happened in Genesis 1:2 (1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.) took place.

I don't quite understand why you're concluding this had to take place before Genesis 1:2. Yes, I would agree that, according to the Bible, Jesus was present at Creation. But he would have been present in all the intervening years from Creation until he spoke those words to his Apostles. Why could Satan's fall not have happened sometime BETWEEN Creation and Jesus's speech to the Apostles that you quoted?

For that matter, I'm unconvinced that, speaking as often as Bible characters do in prophecy, that is speaking of events to come, that Jesus himself was not prophesying what was to occur in a future day. As the Lord, after all, he would have seen a great deal of what the future held, if not all of it.

I would be especially interested in how you arrive at your dating of events given the following Bible passage:

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. 7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? 9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? 10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. 11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. 12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Job 1:6-12, King James Edition

Seems like God totally had plenty of chances to kill Satan. We also see God asking Satan questions that..being God, he already knows the answer to anyways. Then God appears to just let the dude walk away.

Originally posted by Surtur
Seems like God totally had plenty of chances to kill Satan. We also see God asking Satan questions that..being God, he already knows the answer to anyways. Then God appears to just let the dude walk away.

Satan IS a problematic concept. Were it not for evil appearing so personal, yet institutional and deliberate in the world ...

Originally posted by Surtur
Seems like God totally had plenty of chances to kill Satan. We also see God asking Satan questions that..being God, he already knows the answer to anyways. Then God appears to just let the dude walk away.

But Satan is just a scapegoat. All the things that people do wrong in the world, are blamed on Satan. God would never kill Satan, cause what would we do without a scapegoat.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But Satan is just a scapegoat. All the things that people do wrong in the world, are blamed on Satan. God would never kill Satan, cause what would we do without a scapegoat.

I think it is a case of..Satan was a dick, but he isn't responsible for all the evil. But this just means God had one of his kids basically just to use him/it as a scapegoat for all the bad stuff people do.

Still though, wiping the dude out would still probably of benefited humanity.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I don't quite understand why you're concluding this had to take place before Genesis 1:2. Yes, I would agree that, according to the Bible, Jesus was present at Creation. But he would have been present in all the intervening years from Creation until he spoke those words to his Apostles. Why could Satan's fall not have happened sometime BETWEEN Creation and Jesus's speech to the Apostles that you quoted?

For that matter, I'm unconvinced that, speaking as often as Bible characters do in prophecy, that is speaking of events to come, that Jesus himself was not prophesying what was to occur in a future day. As the Lord, after all, he would have seen a great deal of what the future held, if not all of it.

I would be especially interested in how you arrive at your dating of events given the following Bible passage:

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and [b]Satan came also among them. 7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? 9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? 10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. 11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. 12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Job 1:6-12, King James Edition [/B]

Hold on a second here. I'm answering a question that Bentley asked. He asked whether or not a battle happened in heaven which ejected Satan out of heaven. I'm proving that at least one did. More than one celestial battle has been forecast in the bible. Job was born well before John the baptist, and it was written in that time well before the birth of Jesus that Satan come before God, and the sons of God. He does this in an attempt to tempt Job into denouncing God. It was clear that Satan did not belong in the assemblage, because God even asks what he was doing there. Read job and you will see. Satan is allowed to go to heaven, he is just unable to remain there. It could be his very nature that keeps him from living in heaven permanently. It is certain however that no matter what happens, when judgement is done heaven and earth will be destroyed, and a new kingdom of God will exist. As far as giving a concrete date on the events being spoken of, this isn't something that anyone can do, and it becomes trivial unto itself.

Jesus said that he saw Satan as he was cast out of heaven like a beam of light, or ejected from heaven at the speed that lightning can travel. This happened before he (Jesus) ever walked among the apostles. This also includes before John the baptist, and even Abraham who came before him were ever born. There are a series of battles in heaven that have been forecast in the bible. An Angel that had a message for Daniel had been occupied for months before he could deliver a message. The don't believe that the Angel had a name, but a demonic name was given. The Angel wrestled against the Prince of Persia, which is what took him so long to deliver his message to Daniel. This another battle spoken of before the end time event spoken of in Revelations.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But Satan is just a scapegoat. All the things that people do wrong in the world, are blamed on Satan. God would never kill Satan, cause what would we do without a scapegoat.

Speak for yourself. You're mixing the people willing to blame all of their woes, mistakes, and crimes on Satan with people that take responsibility for their own actions. Don't attempt lumping people together.

Originally posted by Surtur
I think it is a case of..Satan was a dick, but he isn't responsible for all the evil. But this just means God had one of his kids basically just to use him/it as a scapegoat for all the bad stuff people do.

Still though, wiping the dude out would still probably of benefited humanity.

This is wrong. God did not make Satan to do the things the he did. Satan like all of the rest of Gods creations was given a will of his own. This means that he chose to do the crap that he did. He would do it again if given the choice. Our will is what forms our opinions and goes the distance of shaping our lives.

Listen I can choose to be on tomorrow nights news for breaking the law in very big ways, and that would be my choice. I would have to take responsibility for those actions that I willfully chose. Even choosing not to commit crime is an action of choice. Once I do anything, I can't turn around and say that it was God's fault for my choices. I mean are you kidding? Our will is what actually shapes our individual realities. So yes we are all somewhat reality warpers, as funny as that may seem, it's pretty much the truth. Satan chose, and still chooses to do whatever he is willing to do.

Originally posted by Surtur
I think it is a case of..Satan was a dick, but he isn't responsible for all the evil. But this just means God had one of his kids basically just to use him/it as a scapegoat for all the bad stuff people do.

Still though, wiping the dude out would still probably of benefited humanity.

God doesn't care about humanity. He's a self-centered child, that wants only for himself.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
God doesn't care about humanity. He's a self-centered child, that wants only for himself.

That isn't what is written in the bible. It actually says that God loves the people in the world, and desires for everyone to make it to his kingdom, so that they would live in love and peace, and many other amazing things. God is going to destroy Death. You may be confusing the big picture, with the here and now.

Originally posted by Stoic
That isn't what is written in the bible. It actually says that God loves the people in the world, and desires for everyone to make it to his kingdom, so that they would live in love and peace, and many other amazing things. God is going to destroy Death. You may be confusing the big picture, with the here and now.

I'm not confused at all. What I said is what I believe about the mythology of Christianity.

The god in the bible is a jealous god. Jealousy is just another form of selfishness.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I'm not confused at all. What I said is what I believe about the mythology of Christianity.

The god in the bible is a jealous god. Jealousy is just another form of selfishness.

No it isn't. Jealousy has more than one side to it, and it is far too complex to sum up in one sentence. The nature of jealousy is to show a form of love. Such as; missing someone, can lead a person to feel jealousy. or, when a spouse says that they will not remain in the relationship if any other is placed above them in the role of spouse. Jealousy in that case was applied to a certain dichotomy, and is clearly meant to be used as a means of establishing the way that God envisioned, or desired relationships between him and mankind to be.

Originally posted by Stoic
No it isn't. Jealousy has more than one side to it, and it is far too complex to sum up in one sentence. The nature of jealousy is to show a form of love. Such as; missing someone, can lead a person to feel jealousy. or, when a spouse says that they will not remain in the relationship if any other is placed above them in the role of spouse. Jealousy in that case was applied to a certain dichotomy, and is clearly meant to be used as a means of establishing the way that God envisioned, or desired relationships between him and mankind to be.

"jeal·ous

adjective: jealous

feeling or showing envy of someone or their achievements and advantages.
"he grew jealous of her success"

•feeling or showing suspicion of someone's unfaithfulness in a relationship.
"a jealous boyfriend"

•fiercely protective or vigilant of one's rights or possessions."

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=jealous+definition

I don't think that jealousy is any type of love. Jealousy is pure selfishness.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
"jeal·ous

adjective: jealous

feeling or showing envy of someone or their achievements and advantages.
"he grew jealous of her success"

•feeling or showing suspicion of someone's unfaithfulness in a relationship.
"a jealous boyfriend"

•fiercely protective or vigilant of one's rights or possessions."

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=jealous+definition

I don't think that jealousy is any type of love. Jealousy is pure selfishness.

And what is wrong with being selfish? Selfishness often protects people from negligible events. I'm selfish over my wife, and refuse to allow another man to sleep with her. She feels the same way about me sleeping around on her. This protects us, because it keeps things like herpes, AIDs, and other sexual diseases from hurting us. All the same, your accusation has no place here. God is clear why he is jealous, and I see nothing wrong with it being used in the context of how it is being used in the bible.

Originally posted by Stoic
And what is wrong with being selfish? Selfishness often protects people from negligible events. I'm selfish over my wife, and refuse to allow another man to sleep with her. She feels the same way about me sleeping around on her. This protects us, because it keeps things like herpes, AIDs, and other sexual diseases from hurting us. All the same, your accusation has no place here. God is clear why he is jealous, and I see nothing wrong with it being used in the context of how it is being used in the bible.

I'm glad you agree that the god of the bible is selfish.

Originally posted by Stoic
Speak for yourself. You're mixing the people willing to blame all of their woes, mistakes, and crimes on Satan with people that take responsibility for their own actions. Don't attempt lumping people together.

This is wrong. God did not make Satan to do the things the he did. Satan like all of the rest of Gods creations was given a will of his own. This means that he chose to do the crap that he did. He would do it again if given the choice. Our will is what forms our opinions and goes the distance of shaping our lives.

Listen I can choose to be on tomorrow nights news for breaking the law in very big ways, and that would be my choice. I would have to take responsibility for those actions that I willfully chose. Even choosing not to commit crime is an action of choice. Once I do anything, I can't turn around and say that it was God's fault for my choices. I mean are you kidding? Our will is what actually shapes our individual realities. So yes we are all somewhat reality warpers, as funny as that may seem, it's pretty much the truth. Satan chose, and still chooses to do whatever he is willing to do.

But how is it a true choice if God already knows everything that will happen?

Some interpretations see the whole knowledge/sin thing as metaphorical: "knowledge" = self-awareness. "Sin" = we are no longer unconscious and "one" with nature. It's a statement about the psychological development of humanity, not unlike what a human individual goes through. Normal development takes us from unconscious neonate, embedded in a world of sensation and emotion, to self-conscious ego, capable of symbolic thought and abstraction. With the latter also comes being able to invest ourselves in our thoughts/symbols, our memories and plans, rather than living in the here-n-now.

I'm guessing this mystical stuff was more/less watered down for public consumption, and somewhere along the way, like for political purposes, the wording/interpretation of the Eden story changed from spiritual-psychological to spiritual-authoritative.

Originally posted by Surtur
But how is it a true choice if God already knows everything that will happen?

Our will is what allows us to choose one path over the other through knowledge.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I'm glad you agree that the god of the bible is selfish.

And? How does that make God bad?

Originally posted by Stoic
And? How does that make God bad?

I said the god of the bible was self centered. I never said anything about God. 😉