Originally posted by The_TempestThat doesn't make OCW an any more accurate portrayal of characters as they appear in the new continuity.
The Legends/Canon distinction sinks your battleship, though. There's nothing to contradict: OCW no longer has to align with canon and is therefore as valid as anything else under the Legends umbrella. 👆
Originally posted by Beniboybling
That doesn't make OCW an any more accurate portrayal of characters as they appear in the new continuity.
The problem is that each character exists in both continuities. If we are discussing only canon!incarnations of the characters, then I'd agree. But no one ever specified that we were.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Point being that Canon still takes precedence over Legends.
Who suggested otherwise? But this forum explores both canon and Legends content. OCW feats are no more or less Legend-y than Legacy feats or TOR feats or TFU feats. They're all equally non-canon. If you can point me to where a Lucasfilm official has identified degrees, stages, or levels of Legend status, I'll concede.
Until then, it's perfectly reasonable and perfectly valid to utilize Legends feats in a forum that lets you do just that.
Originally posted by Nephthys
There's a canon/legend distinction only for the canon side. The legends side (basically our EU forum) uses both legends and canon material except when they contradict.
You're free to direct me to where that has been articulated as official policy. The "levels of canon" don't exist anymore in Legends because Legends isn't canon. It's all equally non-canon. OCW isn't less canon than another Legends story; if that's your claim, it's your burden to prove and I'd suggest you arm yourself with something stronger than an anti-film agenda to defend it.
Obvious and clumsy attempts to stack the deck are obvious and clumsy.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
You're free to direct me to where that has been articulated as official policy. The "levels of canon" don't exist anymore in Legends because Legends isn't canon. It's all equally non-canon. OCW isn't less canon than another Legends story; if that's your claim, it's your burden to prove and I'd suggest you arm yourself with something stronger than an anti-film agenda to defend it.Obvious and clumsy attempts to stack the deck are obvious and clumsy.
It doesn't need to be said? Like, what are you thinking, that now all canon sections can't be used at the same time as the legend parts? That's impossible, all the EU was built off of the movies and shows. The canon part can freely ignore everything that happened in legends. The legends part cannot possibly do the same. If you want to talk about legend materials, you have to acknowledge the canon materials.
Originally posted by Nephthys
It doesn't need to be said?
You're not off to a good start lol.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Like, what are you thinking, that now all canon sections can't be used at the same time as the legend parts? That's impossible, all the EU was built off of the movies and shows.
No... If a thread wants to constrain characters to their canon iterations, they're free to do so. Unless otherwise specified in the OP, I'll be using Legends feats whenever I please for characters who exist in each domain simultaneously.
Originally posted by Nephthys
The canon part can freely ignore everything that happened in legends. The legends part cannot possibly do the same. If you want to talk about legend materials, you have to acknowledge the canon materials.
Canon was always free to do that, Neph. George and co. ran roughshod over the EU all the time. The EU has always been the abused and neglected Bottom in that particular relationship.
The Canon/Legends distinction simply means that there's no more levels of canon. It either is or it isn't. There's no G-canon, no T-canon, no C-canon. TFU & TOR; Dark Empire and Path of Destruction; Legacy and NJO. All are Legends, all are equally non-canon, and no story or set of stories is more or less canon than the other.
It's simply binary now. You are or you're not.
And since OCW is no more or less canon than any other Legends story, including SWTOR and Legacy and KOTOR and TFU and so on ad infinitum, users are free to draw upon such feats unless the OP specifically confines characters to their canon iterations. 👆
Originally posted by The_TempestNot me. But as you say, this forum explores Legends and Canon, unless we are discussing Legends only OCW is inevitably going to find itself coming to blows and overruled by Canon sources.
Who suggested otherwise? But this forum explores both canon and Legends content. OCW feats are no more or less Legend-y than Legacy feats or TOR feats or TFU feats. They're all equally non-canon. If you can point me to where a Lucasfilm official has identified degrees, stages, or levels of Legend status, I'll concede.Until then, it's perfectly reasonable and perfectly valid to utilize Legends feats in a forum that lets you do just that.
Bearing in mind that OCW has always been - as C-Canon - equal to any Legends source, it's how they stack up to Canon that sets them apart, i.e. poorly, that has not changed.
But by taking OCW at face value, when Canon is also being considered, your suggesting OCW is equal/takes precedence over Canon material.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
You're not off to a good start lol.
Common sense usually doesn't have to pointed out.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
No... If a thread wants to constrain characters to their canon iterations, they're free to do so. Unless otherwise specified in the OP, I'll be using Legends feats whenever I please for characters who exist in each domain simultaneously.
No, you got this the wrong way around. I was asking if you can't bring canon feats into something about legends. Since your whole point is that we can't use canon as a basis of comparison for legends material. Surely since one is canon and the other isn't, if the EU contradicts canon then it's invalid as evidence even when accounting for legends material?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Canon was always free to do that, Neph. George and co. ran roughshod over the EU all the time. The EU has always been the abused and neglected Bottom in that particular relationship.
No shit. But you're looking at this from the wrong angle. Canon doesn't have to pay attention to the EU, but the EU does have to align with canon if you're using both.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The Canon/Legends distinction simply means that there's no more levels of canon. It either is or it isn't. There's no G-canon, no T-canon, no C-canon. TFU & TOR; Dark Empire and Path of Destruction; Legacy and NJO. All are Legends, all are equally non-canon, and no story or set of stories is more or less canon than the other.
So are you actually speaking here or are you just typing words without registering anything? This isn't an issue of levels of canon. It has never been an issue of levels of canon. This is completely irrelevant.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's simply binary now. You are or you're not.And since OCW is no more or less canon than any other Legends story, including SWTOR and Legacy and KOTOR and TFU and so on ad infinitum, users are free to draw upon such feats unless the OP specifically confines characters to their canon iterations. 👆
No, you're wrong here. I think you're having a fundamental difficulty with grasping what the actual point is. No-one is saying the OCW feats are less canon or some technicality bullshit you're using to trump them up. They always occupied the same level of canon as most other works, they weren't bumped down to T-canon or some shit. No-one has ever said that they are "less-canon". Just that they're exaggerations. That didn't stop being a thing just because they were made non-canon. At the time of their creation they were intended as exaggerations and thus they are forever. Canon has nothing to do with it. People have been always allowed to draw upon such feats. It's not like people said they didn't take place (though tbh that Rivi-Anu thing is so bollocks it would be best to just ignore it), just they were heavily exaggerated in their portrayal. Which is what people always bring up when these feats are drawn upon. As they are free to do. Nothings changed by the EU being made legends.
My first post had nothing to do with the OCW feats anyway, I was just clarifying what the canon/legend distinction was.
Originally posted by Q99
It was very much a 'oneness with the force' moment, and completely badass.
Rivi-Anu was awesome!
Originally posted by Q99
Considering she was young, it may be she was a rising star, unpolished but a potential really great... if her career hadn't been cut short.
Indeed.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not me. But as you say, this forum explores Legends and Canon, unless we are discussing Legends only OCW is inevitably going to find itself coming to blows and overruled by Canon sources.Bearing in mind that OCW has always been - as C-Canon - equal to any Legends source, it's how they stack up to Canon that sets them apart, i.e. poorly, that has not changed.
But by taking OCW at face value, when Canon is also being considered, your suggesting OCW is equal/takes precedence over Canon material.
Not at all. Canon also establishes that Sith cannot exist in any form posthumously; does that mean that any thread that involves a canon character and Vitiate, the reborn Emperor, Darth Nihilus, Darth Krayt, etc. {Sith Lords who have, in the old EU, survived their deaths} is suggesting a Legends work takes precedence over canon material? Can Coleman Trebor beat Vitiate, since Trebor is a canon character and Vitiate doesn't exist canonically?
The Legends/Canon dichotomy often presents us with mutually exclusive scenarios, but that's just it: both domains are mutually exclusive now. There's no cohesive universe like there was before, no levels of canon. It's binary: a story is canon or it isn't.
No one is suggesting that any source takes precedence over the other. Legends material simply provides us with feats and abilities attributed to that character and as long as this forum allows Legends feats to be used, they can be used for characters who exist in canon and Legends.
Your entire argument hinges on the outdated paradigm: OCW "contradicts" canon and therefore cannot be considered. Plenty of Legends material that we consider here "contradicts" canon and yet here we are, using it anyway. The Legends/Canon split rendered that way of thinking obsolete. It's all explicitly non-canon.
OCW and its feats are perfectly valid material to draw on in these discussions unless the OP specifies that the character in question is limited to his canon iteration.
It's a double standard, quite frankly, and I won't even entertain the notion until it's applied broadly.
Originally posted by Nephthys
When?
"The Witches of the Mist" commentary {it's the reason George ultimately nixed the idea of Bane and Revan returning in spectral form on Mortis} and echoed again by Dave Filoni.
[i]StarWars.com
StarWars.com: When Maul came back, I thought, “This is foreshadowing for what’s going to happen to Anakin.” Right down to his mechanical legs. He keeps himself alive through hate and becomes this twisted thing. And I thought it was successful just on those grounds.Dave Filoni: Thanks. It’s a thing about Sith. They’re afraid to die. Fear attracts the fearful. Because for them it’s the end; if they die, it’s all over.
Originally posted by The_TempestThat approach doesn't help your argument. If you approach Legends and Canon are mutually exclusive, you can't consider both of them in relation to a single character, you have to consider one or the other.
Not at all. Canon also establishes that Sith cannot exist in any form posthumously; does that mean that any thread that involves a canon character and Vitiate, the reborn Emperor, Darth Nihilus, Darth Krayt, etc. {Sith Lords who have, in the old EU, survived their deaths} is suggesting a Legends work takes precedence over canon material? Can Coleman Trebor beat Vitiate, since Trebor is a canon character and Vitiate doesn't exist canonically?The Legends/Canon dichotomy often presents us with mutually exclusive scenarios, but that's just it: both domains are mutually exclusive now. There's no cohesive universe like there was before, no levels of canon. It's binary: a story is canon or it isn't.
No one is suggesting that any source takes precedence over the other. Legends material simply provides us with feats and abilities attributed to that character and as long as this forum allows Legends feats to be used, they can be used for characters who exist in canon and Legends.
Your entire argument hinges on the outdated paradigm: OCW "contradicts" canon and therefore cannot be considered. Plenty of Legends material that we consider here "contradicts" canon and yet here we are, using it anyway. The Legends/Canon split rendered that way of thinking obsolete. It's all explicitly non-canon.
OCW and its feats are perfectly valid material to draw on in these discussions unless the OP specifies that the character in question is limited to his canon iteration.
It's a double standard, quite frankly, and I won't even entertain the notion until it's applied broadly.
ChaosTheory suggested that Anakin's OCW feats can be considered in relation to a occurence that happened in Canon, but again if you approach Canon and Legends are mutually exclusive, only one of these continuities is true, and the other is false, and they certainly cannot be compared.
Disney has made it pretty clear that Canon is the "true" story, so OCW remains invalidated.
However the OP has not, as you say, specified Canon only, and we are instead approaching this situation as if Canon and Legends are not mutually exclusive, but part of a cohesive continuity.
If we do that then he have to consider some kind of strata of accuracy in which some sources are less reliable than others.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
That approach doesn't help your argument. If you approach Legends and Canon are mutually exclusive, you can't consider both of them in relation to a single character, you have to consider one or the other.
That approach most certainly does help my argument. Until you're prepared to apply your way of thinking across the board {i.e. to all things that "contradict" canon}, I'm not prepared to entertain this specific example.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
ChaosTheory suggested that Anakin's OCW feats can be considered in relation to a occurence that happened in Canon,
He's right: Nothing in this particular OCW event contradicts canon anyway, beyond the fact that it falls under a Legends source.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
but again if you approach Canon and Legends are mutually exclusive, only one of these continuities is true, and the other is false, and they certainly cannot be compared.
Only if we examine things under the outdated model, which I've already demonstrated no longer exists.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Disney has made it pretty clear that Canon is the "true" story, so OCW remains invalidated.
Then by your definition, that canon "true story" doesn't include things like SWTOR or TFU or Legacy or Dark Empire or Darth Plagueis and so on ad infinitum.
I disagree with your stance categorically, but take even greater issue with how selectively you're applying it here.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
However the OP has not, as you say, specified Canon only, and we are instead approaching this situation as if Canon and Legends are not mutually exclusive, but part of a cohesive continuity.
There is no cohesive continuity other than canon. {In fact, Legends notoriously contradicted itself all the time.} No one is suggesting that Legends feats and Legends sources are canonical or let alone that the overrule canon.
What is being suggested is that this forum allows users to draw on material from both domains and OCW isn't some magical exception to that fact. 👆
Originally posted by The_Tempest
There is no cohesive continuity other than canon. {In fact, Legends notoriously contradicted itself all the time.} No one is suggesting that Legends feats and Legends sources are canonical or let alone that the overrule canon.What is being suggested is that this forum allows users to draw on material from both domains and OCW isn't some magical exception to that fact. 👆