Exar Kun vs. Palpatine

Originally posted by carthage
A weakened Talzin can hold her own against an equally amped Darth Sidious, and stomp him with drain and other force abilities while in a weakened state. Off nexus she still has a wealth of force abilities that outstrip him as well as accolades that place her far above him as a force user

What?

If you believe her to be that powerful then bringing her up would be pointless, considering you yourself don't even believe Kun to be Sidious level.

BTW, it was stated by a nightbrother that the ritual "might" weaken her, suggesting that if it's not successful, which it was, and is why she was confident in taking on Sidious, when any other time she would rarely leave her world, not even to find her own son. It's heavily implied she feared Sidious. So, I'm assuming with her growing powers and being whole again gave her more confidence in her abilities. Also, Sidious wasn't "equally amped." The nightsister magic imbued on that world belongs to them, and holds different properties than ordinary dark side energy. Before Disney, both Lucas and Filoni differentiated their magic to the dark side. There's a reason Sidious was desperate to draw her off world in order to confront her rather than face her in the heart of her power. If he was equally amped, it wouldn't have made a difference to him.

I needed to address that, but I know what you're doing.

PM me just in case.

^ He means Dathomir is steeped in the Dark Side so would also give Dark Siders an Amp.

But I doubt any dark side amp would be equal to the amp Talzin gets in an arena that's described as the "Heart of her Power."

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Well I hope we can at least agree that Maul was trained in being a Scheming Mastermind as well as a Combatant as that's made pretty clear:

http://www.starwars.com/databank/darth-maul

A deadly, agile Sith Lord trained by the evil Darth Sidious, Darth Maul was a formidable warrior and scheming mastermind. He wielded an intimidating double-bladed lightsaber and fought with a menacing ferocity.

So already we know he was trained as more than just a combatant.

Also notice how both the Official Site and the New Ultimate Guide refers to him as a "Sith Lord." So I'm still a little confused in your difference between a Sith Lord and a "Real" or "Proper" Sith Lord.

New Ultimate Guide:

"One of the deadliest, most efficiently trained Sith in the Order's history, Darth Maul's tattooed face is as symbolic of his utter devotion to the dark side, as it is marking his hatred of the Jedi."

As for his higher level Force Powers. I'll point out again he was younger than Padawan Kenobi in TPM, so I'm not sure how far you expected his training to have gone into the higher levels by that stage. Whilst with someone like Count Dooku (or even Darth Vader) who converted to the Dark Side after already being more than adept in the Jedi Arts, had nothing more to learn from Sidious BUT higher level Dark Side skills/techniques.

Apparently, I made some things too complex here. Let me just attempt to explain it in an easy fashion:

Sidious victory against Maul is handled as some kind of "uber feat" for Sidious here, with the main reason being "Maul is a Sith Lord". What people are clearly overlooking is:

a) Maul got his entire training from Sidious, who was very specifically not training an successor or somebody who could challenge his position. Thus, it is only logical that Maul lost this fight, because he was trained in a fashion to lose this fight. After all, Sidious calls Maul a "tool", goes at length in describing that Maul's singular purpose was combat. This is why the quote above states that he is "[...]most efficiently trained[...]" in contrast to being the "best trained" or "most skilled" or something like that. And, according to Sidious, his apprentice exceeded his usefulness quite fast.

And I find it rather hard to understand, how people can't accept that: I don't think that anybody here things that Obi-Wan could beat Anakin without knowing his former apprentice like he did.

b) Sidious owns Maul with his force abilities. Abilities that aren't exactly Maul's strong suit. Which makes it rather ridiculous to conclude - from that fight - that Sidious is capable of dealing with more powerful and better trained dark-side practicioners. Sidious hasn't even remotely faced somebody with an arsenal of offensive abilities that Kun has at his disposal.

And, in that line of thought...

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Nai strikes again, and as always, is so persistent when it comes to Sidious.

Haven't read the whole thread yet, but if you (Nai) are questioning Palpatine's skills as a pure duelist, wouldn't you also be questioning Maul's? If you are crediting all of Maul's skills to Sidious training, in an attempt to desperately claim Palpatine's saber victory over Maul owed to just that. Perhaps you are questioning Maul's combat prowess? After all, this couldn't be a desperate reach to lowball Sidious as a combatant. We all know you would never.

I find it rather amusing, that you attempt to question my arguments before you have read them...and without questioning them at all. I don't see anything "desperate" in noting that Sidious did clearly benefit from the fact, that he was fighting a being that he had trained in every aspect important for a fight - and in way to ensure that Maul could never defeat him. Furthermore, there isn't any "saber victory" of Sidious against Maul: He destroys his apprentice with his superior force powers. Why are you so "deperately" proclaiming something else?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You've not been around long enough to have much experience with him.

Also, can someone explain why blitzing those guards would put Kun on par with Sidious in speed? Both Kit and Maul have blitzed droids that posses speed to rival and fight against jedi, so as far as I'm concerned, they seem comparable to Kun's. IDK, but making council masters, both of whom are stated to be among the best sword fighters ever, look like statues just seems to be quite a bit better. Maybe I missed a scan. At least one of the scans he posted isn't showing up for me. Perhaps I'm in a bad spot. Can't wait to read over this thread, though.

I've answered to the question of the phenomen of "force speed" multiple times by now. Maybe you want to read it, before repeating already defeated points ad nauseam...ups...sorry. Forgot whom I was talking to...

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Regardless of what's being used in combat, it's what's most effective that matters whether it's TK, lightning, or amulet blasts. Hell, even Naga and Ludo, two of the most powerful ancients, used TK and swords when it mattered most: combat (their fight against each other), except while they were hurling bricks, Palpatine's fight with Yoda had him hurling vehicle size pods.

Entirely irrelevant comparison, since neither Sadow nor Kressh is involved in this fight. Attempting to talk Kun down? How pathetic.

Kun's spell on the senate- irrelevant.

It is actually relevant, because it demonstrates that he is capable of perfectly and silency executing Sith spells that are capable of affecting rather large crowds of people, which is a clear demonstration of both power and the ability to control it. How is that irrelevant? Because you say so? Laughable.

Kyp's attack on Luke was mostly credited to his own power (New Essential Guide), with Kun giving him a boost, and Luke's light side powers being diminished on a DS nexus (Jedi Academy training Manual). Basically, amped dark side Kyp- irrelevant.

How about bringing quotes to the table, instead of making obscure references to sources? And in this case, the information is completely false:

a) Kyp does attack Luke on his own, which is already enough to overpower Luke's force defense.
b) Then Kun joins in with an attack of his own, while his spirit is never on par with his original body.

And please: Stop trying to sell the myth of the dark side nexus. Kun's temples were a force nexus, and not one specifically channeling the Dark Side. Which is pretty obvious from the fact that Luke's students utilize the properties of the temple to prevent an invasion of Yavin 4 by force pushing the attacking fleet out of the star-system. I wonder how that "escaped" the attention of everybody attempting to talk Kun down.

So, as far as the force is concerned, it'd come down to Kun's TK and blasts vs Sidious lightning and TK, in which case Sidious has shown more raw power and a much greater command over the force. He's ragdolled individuals who rival Kun in force strength.

Kun generated room-sized beams that blasted rather huge chunks of stones out of giant temple walls, atomized Massassi and exterminated Nadd's spirit. Give me a call when you find the source where RotS Sidious does something even remotely close. You also - most conveniently - forgot the attacks Kun and Kyp used against Luke and the fact that Kun's spirit utilized force drain in combat against Gantoris.

Sorry, but other than range of abilities, I don't see Kun being that much more powerful than Dooku, who has ragdolled numerous powerful force users with the force alone. Power and force strength is usually tested in TK. If sorcery was end all be all then Maul's battle with the nightsister Mighella (a sorcerous/witch) should not have ended in her quick demise, and Sidious's battle with Yoda should have had him throwing around magic that he learned from Talzin, on top of sith sorcery he's learned from holocrons, Talzin should have defeated Sidious in the heart of her power with her hand-waving-fire-summoning power or her green mist that does practically just about anything.

I find it rather amusing that you're comparing apples with oranges, just in order to attempt to talk Kun down.

Sith Magic is fundamentally different from the stuff that the Nightsisters are using, which appears to offer nothing in the area of direct confrontation. Why else would Talzin run away from Grievous, who has nothing to offer in defense against force attacks. Why else would the Nightsisters be confined to rule some backwater planet, that nobody gives a damn about, instead of building up an empire like the Ancient Sith did?

Sith Magic is not only far more powerful than anything Talzin has to offer, it is also applicable in combat, as I've demonstrated. And, unlike Sidious force lightning, Kun's Sith Magic has never failed to either kill or take out an opponent whenever he has made use of it.

Very lopsided fight.

So you now agree that Kun destroys Sidious with ease? ✅ 👆
Oh...apparently not...

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Dooku is canonically one of the most powerful force users in history, so I'm not seeing how an era thousands of years before him would apply to him? Kun being more powerful than them doesn't make him more powerful than Dooku, considering none of them have shown to eclipse Dooku in power. In fact, majority in that list are feat-less, and Sadow's only on-panel duel had him tossing bricks around, nothing compared to what Dooku has been shown capable of. Sadow's power comes from sorcery which wouldn't do much here unless he had prep.

Thank you.

Good god. Are you even capable of utilizing the pile of grey cells nature has placed between your ears. Do you think that Sidious himself considers Sadow "one of the most powerful" in his field of expertise:

...when the guy has nothing to offer but "throwing bricks"? So Sidious decides to "guard" knowledge, that is - essentially - on par with minor telekinesis, only letting fractions of it pass into his own Dark Side Compendium? Seriously?

Obviously, Sadow had a plethora of powerful knowledge to offer, which is demonstrated by the fact, that it turned Exar Kun into the "most powerful and dangerous of the Sith Lords" and "the darkest power in the galaxy" in a time frame of six months.

But, apparently, you're still to busy following the misconceptions in your thinking:

No, Dooku has shown weakness to Talzin's sorcery--sorcery from a powerful witch whom even Sidious was hesitant on facing while on her own planet, so it's safe to say that Talzin is just proven to be more powerful than Dooku. Not to mention that all of her attacks on Dooku required prep, none of which would help in a random encounter. You're comparing apples to oranges, but no not even Talzin has proven capable of outright stomping Dooku with just magic. Dooku is likely a lot more knowledgeable than Windu on matters such as sorcery, but yet not even she was capable of stomping Windu through such mean. She wasn't prepared, and had to resort to dueling Windu. Also, Dooku has shown barrier and deflection when he easily batted away his own redirected lightning, which caused a good size explosion. No, it's not the best showing with it, but the ease in which it was done would suggest he is far from weak with barrier/defenses. There's a reason only a few have proven capable of getting passed his force aura. Kun's blasts haven't shown to be as potent off a nexus.

Good god, man. How stupid are you exactly?
Talzin is not using Sith Magic, so please stop utilizing her capabilities in order to downtalk Kun, who has demonstrated his capabilities with his Sith powers in combat. The only person comparing apples to oranges here is you. And probably, Dooku failed against the magic, because he didn't know any defense against it. Much like Luke fails against it, because no defense Yoda and Obi-Wan have told him seems to work.

I'm discounting the notion that there's a large gap between Kun and Dooku in force power (if that's what you're implying) just because Kun is canonically superior to individuals who have shown to be extra powerful in areas that, for the most part, don't manifest in combat. The fleet illusion, for example, did what for Sadow when he faced off against Ludo? What powers did he use then in combat? I'm not discounting or lowballing them, but in order for me to agree they are more powerful than and can defeat someone like Dooku I need more combat oriented-feats. I am a fan of Dooku, and if this were about Vader, who has shown little more than TK, you'd expect the same generosity instead of accepting what you're providing as a case, correct? Or do you believe those individuals would stomp Vader?

You are discounting and lowballing them, because you refuse to use your brain. Shall I give you the prime example for your errorous thinking: Sadow utilizes TK against Kressh while the two keep on fencing. He doesn't stop the saber engagement to use telekinesis - he does it while he and Kressh exchange blows, pulling multiple bricks out of a stone wall (not exactly easy) to have them impact against the back of Kressh's head.

When you give me an instance when another force user has used force abilities in an offensive fashion while fencing at the same time we can talk again.

Also, Muur didn't stomp Krayt until Krayt was stabbed in the neck. And Nadd did that to a much weaker incarnation of Kun, certainly not of Dooku's level. The ton of rubble is a good TK feat but Dooku can and has performed feats like that on a number of occasions. Even Plo Koon can collapse caves with a gesture. So before you bring up about Nad being a ghost, I'll go ahead and counter that with Dooku ragdolling and being much superior to individuals who can bring down tons of rubble. In other words, it's a feat that's not much for either of them to perform, so we can't compare them based on that.

I find it highly amusing, how you just ignore every claim to fame of the Ancients based on "no sources" showing them to do anything. Absence of proof is not proof of absence. And in this case, the "proof" isn't even absent, but comes in the form of various narrations:

We know, that Nadd traveled to Onderon and conquered the planet one-man-army-style, defeating an army of beast riders in the process. You know: The guys that ride on drexls, these gigantic flying beasts that are highly resistant against force influence, so that one of them almost killed Bane. Nadd defeated an army of that on his own. Give me a call, when Dooku (or Sidious for that matter) goes on a rampage against a foe like that, and spends his days after that with blaster target practice using Jedi as targets (as Nadd did, when the KotoR codex entry on his blaster gun is correct).

And in case you also missed that: Nadd ragdolls Vodo, who, at that time, is on the other side of the Galaxy. As a reminder: This is still Nadd's powerless spirit.

Originally posted by Nai
Apparently, I made some things too complex here. Let me just attempt to explain it in an easy fashion:

Sidious victory against Maul is handled as some kind of "uber feat" for Sidious here, with the main reason being "Maul is a Sith Lord". What people are clearly overlooking is:

a) Maul got his entire training from Sidious, who was very specifically not training an successor or somebody who could challenge his position. Thus, it is only logical that Maul lost this fight, because he was trained in a fashion to lose this fight. After all, Sidious calls Maul a "tool", goes at length in describing that Maul's singular purpose was combat. This is why the quote above states that he is "[...]most efficiently trained[...]" in contrast to being the "best trained" or "most skilled" or something like that. And, according to Sidious, his apprentice exceeded his usefulness quite fast.

And I find it rather hard to understand, how people can't accept that: I don't think that anybody here things that Obi-Wan could beat Anakin without knowing his former apprentice like he did.

b) Sidious owns Maul with his force abilities. Abilities that aren't exactly Maul's strong suit. Which makes it rather ridiculous to conclude - from that fight - that Sidious is capable of dealing with more powerful and better trained dark-side practicioners. Sidious hasn't even remotely faced somebody with an arsenal of offensive abilities that Kun has at his disposal.

And, in that line of thought...

I'm not at all arguing the Master vs Apprentice thing, or that defeating Maul automatically makes Sidious the Most Uber Sith Ever.

I'm simply giving my own opinion on Maul's title as a Sith Lord, especially in the world of Lucas and the world of Disney.

He's not given a title that gives him a specific singular purpose, like Ventress who was titled as "Dooku's assassin," (despite it being confirmed he used to tell her he and her would overthrow Sidious together). Or being given the title of "Inquisitor" like we have in Rebels.

On the contrary, Maul was given the title of "Sith Lord" which would by it's nature include training in a large variety of different skill sets just like training to be a Jedi Knight.

If nothing else we know canonically he was trained as with the skills of a combatant, an assassin, a pilot and being a scheming mastermind.

I agree with Sam Witwer's position on Maul which is that, though Sidious was very possibly Just Using Maul, and planning to replace him, he would likely make the most of Maul's training.

After all it was part of Sidious's plan for a long time to eventually betray Dooku and replace him with Anakin, but that doesn't mean he didn't make the most out of Dooku as an apprentice.

Gonna throw a radical theory out there and propose that maybe Sheev was lying to Plagueis about Maul?

mmm

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Gonna throw a radical theory out there and propose that maybe Sheev was lying to Plagueis about Maul?

mmm

He's already responded to me on that argument with this:

Originally posted by Nai

Yes. I've cited it already, multiple times in fact:

"I too him [Darth Maul] from his homeworld, Iridonia, and raised him as I would [b]construct the perfect weapon. I trained him in numerous exotic and forbidden martial arts, disciplined him constantly, and personally applied the Sith tattoos that were evidence of his complete dedication to the dark side.[...]Maul completed his basic training several years before the Battle of Naboo, and served me well as an assassin and extension of my will. Als loyal as he was, I made no effort to caution him when I foresaw his death in a duel with the Jedi on Naboo[...]Ultimately, Maul was nothing more than a tool[...]" - Darth Sidious, Star Wars: Jedi vs. Sith - The Essential Guide to the Force, p.169

Emphasis mine.
Sidious did train Maul as a weapon. He makes no notice of having trained his apprentice in Sith ways (especially advanced force techniques) but just talks about martial arts. Furthermore he states that Maul had just completed his basic training some years before his death and calls him a "tool".

Nothing of that does much to contradict the idea that Maul was no "real Sith Lord".

[/B]

? That doesn't prove that Maul wasn't a "real" Sith Lord...

"Warrior's are animals. Agents like Darth Maul have their uses, but can never expand beyond their limited set of tasks." - Sidious, Book of Sith.

Nephhles, I'll just counter with sources that declare Maul one of the deadliest Sith in history. 😎

Originally posted by The_Tempest
? That doesn't prove that Maul wasn't a "real" Sith Lord...

I don't think so either. I was just giving you his response.

Maul's title is "Sith Lord" in way too many sources, including The Phantom Menace and The Clone Wars. But Nai's saying he's not a "True" or "Real" Sith Lord because he wasn't trained to use Powers like Force Lightning.

DP, defend your noble Zabrak.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
DP, defend your noble Zabrak.

I have been, but Nai won't have any of it 😠

Strike him down. Dew it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nephhles, I'll just counter with sources that declare Maul one of the deadliest Sith in history. 😎

How does that counter my quote?

Well clearly you think the two notions are mutually exclusive, else you wouldn't have posted that excerpt from the Book of Sith. So you tell me?

Uh, no? You can be a complete tool and still be a really ****ing deadly tool. I was just offering another source supporting Nai's suggestion that Maul was a mere weapon. And uh, weapons are kind of meant to be deadly. So you didn't counter jack shit.

Yeah, I'm not really sure what Nai is getting at with, "Maul was only trained as a combatant, so Sheev's defeat of him is less impressive."

As if Maul being trained in the subtleties of political manipulation is somehow relevant to whether he loses or doesn't lose against Sheev in combat.

It's funny how angry you are right now. Did Beefy's comment piss you off that much?

Maul's reintroduction in The Clone Wars depicts him as both a "formidable warrior" and "scheming mastermind" (per the official site), which contradicts the notion that he was just an assassin.

Him being Sheev's tool has no bearing on whether or not Maul is a true Sith Lord. Which he is. Per many sources.

Honestly, DP's kinda kicking your ass here. 😬

And even Dmb is coming out of the woodwork to side with DP.