Your cognitive functions seem impaired, likely due to the incessant torrent of tears Beefy incited.
Your argument is in direct conflict with DP's. Every point you've offered in defense of Nai for your shameful anti-Sheev platform has already been refuted by DP. So not only have you failed completely to articulate a reasonable case, your emotional responses only compound grotesque failure.
Even Dmb is agreeing with DP.
Calm down and think this through, Neph.
You attempted to present a case by defending Nai's arguments and then expounding upon them with blatant hostility on the previous page. The fact that you haven't dedicated multiple lengthy posts to your efforts is irrelevant. You still tried to present an argument.
But it's fueled only by a volcanic hostility and an obvious hatred of Sheev.
Shameful, Neph. Shameful.
When you calm down and abandon your established reputation for such things, you'll experience a rewarding peace of mind that can only come from Sheevism.
Your denial is disquieting but futile. Calm down.
Didnt see your edit. You ask me not to read everything as an attack and call me a "sensitive wimp." This, coupled with your history for outrage regarding Carthage and Stigma's remarks about Bane plus all the Dark Knight shenanigans that used to ensue, reminds me of a Beefy trademarked word:
IRONY
lol
Originally posted by Darth Thor
I'm not at all arguing the Master vs Apprentice thing, or that defeating Maul automatically makes Sidious the Most Uber Sith Ever.
Okay.
I'm simply giving my own opinion on Maul's title as a Sith Lord, especially in the world of Lucas and the world of Disney.
The point is, that the title itself means nothing, because it doesn't elevate people who wear it into the elite caste of force users - which some people here seem to assume (read: "Sidious defeated a Sith Lord in combat with ease, so..."😉.
He's not given a title that gives him a specific singular purpose, like Ventress who was titled as "Dooku's assassin," (despite it being confirmed he used to tell her he and her would overthrow Sidious together). Or being given the title of "Inquisitor" like we have in Rebels.On the contrary, Maul was given the title of "Sith Lord" which would by it's nature include training in a large variety of different skill sets just like training to be a Jedi Knight.
And here comes the point, where we disagree.
"Sith Lord" is a title given to a Sith apprentice who finished his training, which means, whenever the master thinks he's ready to wear the title. Other qualifications don't exist. Now Sidious, as I've pointed out multiple times already, did not train a successor, he didn't even train a "partner" (as in: "somebody roughly equal to him"😉, he trained a "tool". He molded Maul from the latters infancy on, into a weapon for his personal use.
Furthermore, it is pretty obvious, that Maul never was a "real" Sith Lord: As we all know, there can only be two of them at a time. And that "two" would have been Sidious and Plagueis, who died after Maul's defeat on Naboo, if I may remind you. So it stands to reason that everything concerning Maul in that regard is retconned by the arival of Plagueis in canon.
If nothing else we know canonically he was trained as with the skills of a combatant, an assassin, a pilot and being a scheming mastermind.I agree with Sam Witwer's position on Maul which is that, though Sidious was very possibly Just Using Maul, and planning to replace him, he would likely make the most of Maul's training.
After all it was part of Sidious's plan for a long time to eventually betray Dooku and replace him with Anakin, but that doesn't mean he didn't make the most out of Dooku as an apprentice.
The point, for me, is, that usually, Sith Lords aren't just trained to serve people. While an apprentice certainly needs to obey and do stuff, usually they evolve in first resembling their masters (in terms of power) and eventually overcoming them. This is what we observe in "Darth Plagueis" with Sidious' own training. Maul, however, does never leave that first state of an initiate. He's still Sidious' wench, his loyal servant / assassin and even a strengthening of his abilities doesn't get him in a position where Sidious' can not just destroy him at will - in anything but a straigth saberfight. In that, Maul does pretty good against his former master. But when it comes down to force powers, he is pretty much a rather low tier candidate.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nephhles, I'll just counter with sources that declare Maul one of the deadliest Sith in history. 😎
"I too him [Darth Maul] from his homeworld, Iridonia, and raised him as I would construct the perfect weapon. I trained him in numerous exotic and forbidden martial arts, disciplined him constantly, and personally applied the Sith tattoos that were evidence of his complete dedication to the dark side.[...]Maul completed his basic training several years before the Battle of Naboo, and served me well as an assassin and extension of my will. Als loyal as he was, I made no effort to caution him when I foresaw his death in a duel with the Jedi on Naboo[...]Ultimately, Maul was nothing more than a tool[...]" - Darth Sidious, Star Wars: Jedi vs. Sith - The Essential Guide to the Force, p.169
Emphasis mine.
You may want to notice that:
a) Sidious mentions no special force training for Maul - only exotic martial arts.
b) Sidious calls Maul his "assassin and extension of my will", indicating that Maul was exactly that and nothing more.
c) Sidious calls Maul "nothing but a tool", devaluating the position of his apprentice pretty much.
"Already strong in the Force, trained in combat, and a diplomat, as well, Dooku might have made for a powerful partner under different circumstances. Except for the fact that Dooku, unlike the Dathomiri Zabrak whom Sidious had trained, would never be content to serves as an apprentice or a mere assassin. He would demand to become a true Sith, and that would lead to trouble." - Darth Plagueis, Chapter 26.
Plagueis musing about the nature of Darth Maul in comparison to a possible Dark Side Dooku, who, in turn, doesn't think that much about Maul himself:
"Maul had been an animal. A skilled animal, but a beast nonetheless." - Dooku, Revenge of the Sith Novelization.
And of course:
"Warriors are animals. Agents like Darth Maul have their uses, but can never expand beyond their limited set of tasks." - Darth Sidious, Book of Sith, p.62.
Sidious makes it pretty clear once more, what he thinks about his apprentice, and not for the last time:
"Darth Maul, Darth Tyranus, Darth Vader. Each useful in his own way. Each easy to replace when his purpose has reached its end." -Darth Sidious, Book of Sith, p. 72.
Emphasis mine. Sidious wants people that can easily be replaced...
"While I may choose apprentices, I will never choose a successor." - Darth Sidious, Book of Sith, p.75.
Just in case this wasn't clear...and finally:
"It [the saber-staff] is a Sith weapon, but one suited for the barbarians among us." - Darth Sidious, Book of Sith, p. 85.
And, while I'm already reading that stuff, you may want to check out what those Ancient Sith Lords on Korriban are capable of in their powerless spectral forms:
"The spirits on Korriban are quite real. Indeed, on one occassion they nearly killed me. - Darth Sidious, Book of Sith, p.140.
😛
I see you still seek my attention, you shameless flirt. Since you've regained your composure, I'll indulge your craving.
Nai
a) Sidious mentions no special force training for Maul - only exotic martial arts.
The fact that he didn't specifically mention "special Force training" doesn't prove that Maul didn't receive any. In fact, Maul himself attributes his survival with mysterious "training" he received from Sidious in "The Lawless."
Nai
b) Sidious calls Maul his "assassin and extension of my will", indicating that Maul was exactly that and nothing more.
As DP has explained, Maul's return in The Clone Wars reestablished much of his personal history; the information you cite from The Essential Guide to the Force has been overturned. He was trained to be much more than a mere assassin.
Nai
c) Sidious calls Maul "nothing but a tool", devaluating the position of his apprentice pretty much.
Now I won't dispute that Sheev regarded Maul as a tool... but that actually has no real reflection on his skill and powers.
Nai
Plagueis musing about the nature of Darth Maul in comparison to a possible Dark Side Dooku,
Plagueis, whose conclusions derive from information about Maul that comes solely from Sidious. For Plagueis's conclusions to be valid, one must assume that Sidious was being honest... when we now know he wasn't.
But that aside, the context of the quote clearly refers to ambition, not skill. Plagueis is musing that Dooku would never be content to forever be a "mere assassin" or "apprentice." Dooku would eventually seek the mantle of Master himself, which is what sparked Plagueis's initial concerns with Maul to begin with. Since no one here has claimed that Maul was a Sith Master, I don't see how Plagueis's conclusions {questionable at best} are relevant.
Nai
who, in turn, doesn't think that much about Maul himself:
Actually, Dooku apparently holds Maul's skills in enormous esteem. First, it was Talzin's guarantee that Ventress's replacement would possess similar prowess to Maul that intrigued him with the possibility of Ventress. Second, Dooku claims that Savage's abilities will eventually rival "those of the great Sith Lord, Darth Maul" in "Monster."
Nai
"Warriors are animals. Agents like Darth Maul have their uses, but can never expand beyond their limited set of tasks." - Darth Sidious, Book of Sith, p.62.Sidious makes it pretty clear once more, what he thinks about his apprentice, and not for the last time:
"Darth Maul, Darth Tyranus, Darth Vader. Each useful in his own way. Each easy to replace when his purpose has reached its end." -Darth Sidious, Book of Sith, p. 72.
Emphasis mine. Sidious wants people that can easily be replaced...
"While I may choose apprentices, I will never choose a successor." - Darth Sidious, Book of Sith, p.75.
Just in case this wasn't clear...and finally:
"It [the saber-staff] is a Sith weapon, but one suited for the barbarians among us." - Darth Sidious, Book of Sith, p. 85.
And we're back to The Clone Wars rewriting much of Maul's personal history in favor of a much more well-rounded Sith Lord.
Nai
"The spirits on Korriban are quite real. Indeed, on one occassion they nearly killed me. - Darth Sidious, Book of Sith, p.140.😛
Pfft. Old news, bruh. Though perhaps Sidious means all of Korriban's Sith specters attacked him(!)... Which would make sense... How else would they stand a chance against history's most powerful and successful Sith Master?
i like it
Still don't see how Maul was anymore a "tool" for Sidious than say Dooku was.
Originally posted by The_TempestActually, Dooku apparently holds Maul's skills in enormous esteem. First, it was Talzin's guarantee that Ventress's replacement would possess similar prowess to Maul that intrigued him with the possibility of Ventress. Second, Dooku claims that Savage's abilities will eventually rival "those of the great Sith Lord, Darth Maul" in "Monster."
👆
Forgot about that one. Kind of overrides Dooku calling Maul nothing but a "skilled animal" especially if we're taking everything Sidious and Dooku state to others completely literally.
Overall nice rebuttal. I give you the win over Nai on this occasion.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The fact that he didn't specifically mention "special Force training" doesn't prove that Maul didn't receive any. In fact, Maul himself attributes his survival with mysterious "training" he received from Sidious in "The Lawless."
I wonder: How does this equip Maul with advanced training in the force, which he still does not demonstrate? His survival isn't necessarily dependant upon his strength in the Force or aspects of his training linked to it. In fact, the "punishment" Sidious did subject him to, giving him a higher resistance against (potentially deadly) shock and pain, did probably help him more than anything Sidious taught him regarding the Force. Or was it, that one can just cling onto hatred in order to survive. So Maul is the less impressive PT era version of Sion?
As DP has explained, Maul's return in The Clone Wars reestablished much of his personal history; the information you cite from The Essential Guide to the Force has been overturned. He was trained to be much more than a mere assassin.
And with "much more" you mean "scheming mastermind", because that is all that is mentioned beyond Maul's skill as an assassin. May I, once more, ask how that helps him to put up resistance / attacks in a battle of Force abilities?
Now I won't dispute that Sheev regarded Maul as a tool... but that actually has no real reflection on his skill and powers.
Powers that, may I point it out once more, Maul has failed to demonstrate.
Plagueis, whose conclusions derive from information about Maul that comes solely from Sidious. For Plagueis's conclusions to be valid, one must assume that Sidious was being honest... when we now know he wasn't.
You seem to forget that Plagueis observed Maul's training first hand on several occassions. And while you may question Plagueis' conclusions, there is still nothing to contradict them.
But that aside, the context of the quote clearly refers to ambition, not skill. Plagueis is musing that Dooku would never be content to forever be a "mere assassin" or "apprentice." Dooku would eventually seek the mantle of Master himself, which is what sparked Plagueis's initial concerns with Maul to begin with. Since no one here has claimed that Maul was a Sith Master, I don't see how Plagueis's conclusions {questionable at best} are relevant.
Yes, Gideon. You do notice, that I was precisely arguing the point, that Maul lacked ambition to become as powerful as his master, remained in the position of "assassin" and "apprentice" and didn't develop advanced skills in the Force because of that? 😉
Actually, Dooku apparently holds Maul's skills in enormous esteem. First, it was Talzin's guarantee that Ventress's replacement would possess similar prowess to Maul that intrigued him with the possibility of Ventress. Second, Dooku claims that Savage's abilities will eventually rival "those of the great Sith Lord, Darth Maul" in "Monster."
Again, you fail to see my point.
I'm well aware of the fact, that Dooku does hold Maul in high regard. He does call him "skilled" after all - a judgement that, coming from Dooku, is reserved for people who have demonstrated quite some talent. Yet, he calls Maul "animal" and "beast" nonetheless, indicating that - from his perspective - Maul was missing something to elevate him to the position of a "human" or a "Sith Lord". Could it be, that it was the advanced command of the Force, that Dooku himself demonstrates multiple times in the saga (e.g. Force Lightning and the redirection of that energy in AotC) and that was the thing he respected (even feared) Sidious for?
And we're back to The Clone Wars rewriting much of Maul's personal history in favor of a much more well-rounded Sith Lord.
Where does that happen, Gideon? Maul as we see him in The Clone Wars isn't fundamentally different from the character we observe in all other sources. He is rather gifted, when it comes to lightsaber combat, yet, he still lacks any demonstration of advanced force abilities. In fact, he is so weak in that regard, that Sidious can casually own him, with lightning, with telekinesis - it doesn't even matter. He doesn't even try. Once his lightsaber is taken away from him (with the Force - something he also fails to prevent) he begs for mercy. Maul is roughly as much a threat for Sidious as Ventress is for Yoda, with the Jedi Master just being less inclined to demonstrate his superiority in a lightsaber fight.
So I don't see much reason to keep Maul in high regard. He is, without doubt, an impressive lightsaber duellist. But so is Ulic Qel-Droma in "Redemption", who has about as much to offer in terms of Force defense as Maul does, but still posesses a deeper insight in the force (resisting force drain, which he taught to Anakin). 😉 As far as Sith Lords go, Maul does take a quite low position when it comes to power and overall ability.
Pfft. Old news, bruh. Though perhaps Sidious means all of Korriban's Sith specters attacked him(!)... Which would make sense... How else would they stand a chance against history's most powerful and successful Sith Master?i like it
Since there were none of them around in the time of Bane, I wonder how numerous those could have been 1,000 years later. 😄
Originally posted by NaiThe point is, that the title itself means nothing, because it doesn't elevate people who wear it into the elite caste of force users - which some people here seem to assume (read: "Sidious defeated a Sith Lord in combat with ease, so..."😉.
Nevertheless he was given that title by Sidious himself. He is also given that title by pretty much all the source books.
Sidious could have easily titled him "My Sith assassin," like Ventress was for Dooku, or "My Inquisitor" like the Inquisitors are in Star Wars Rebels. But he didn't. And nor does the official site, the synopsis for TPM and TCW or any of the source books on the matter.
So I don't see why you keep trying to put Maul down to Ventress's or the Inquisitor's positions, when he was clearly given a higher status than that by Sidious and by all the Source material.
Originally posted by Nai
And here comes the point, where we disagree.
"Sith Lord" is a title given to a Sith apprentice who finished his training, which means, whenever the master thinks he's ready to wear the title. Other qualifications don't exist. Now Sidious, as I've pointed out multiple times already, did not train a successor, he didn't even train a "partner" (as in: "somebody roughly equal to him"😉, he trained a "tool". He molded Maul from the latters infancy on, into a weapon for his personal use.
Well like I've said above Sidious obviously did feel Maul was ready to wear the title.
In terms of not being a true successor to Sidious or a partner, that makes Maul no less a Sith Lord than Dooku or Vader. All 3 of them were seen as replaceable by Sidious as you yourself have pointed out.
Originally posted by Nai
Furthermore, it is pretty obvious, that Maul never was a "real" Sith Lord: As we all know, there can only be two of them at a time. And that "two" would have been Sidious and Plagueis, who died after Maul's defeat on Naboo, if I may remind you. So it stands to reason that everything concerning Maul in that regard is retconned by the arival of Plagueis in canon.
Well there were many "Real" Sith Lords before the rule of two came along. Just because Sidious broke that rule doesn't make reality void. As you pointed out yourself, Sidious called Maul a rival because he was breaking the rule of two. That in itself means Maul was a Sith Lord, but now that he wasn't under Sidious's control, it was a survival of the fittest contest.
Originally posted by Nai
The point, for me, is, that usually, Sith Lords aren't just trained to serve people. While an apprentice certainly needs to obey and do stuff, usually they evolve in first resembling their masters (in terms of power) and eventually overcoming them. This is what we observe in "Darth Plagueis" with Sidious' own training. Maul, however, does never leave that first state of an initiate. He's still Sidious' wench, his loyal servant / assassin and even a strengthening of his abilities doesn't get him in a position where Sidious' can not just destroy him at will - in anything but a straigth saberfight. In that, Maul does pretty good against his former master. But when it comes down to force powers, he is pretty much a rather low tier candidate.
Again in terms of just serving people are you arguing that all 3- Maul, Dooku and Vader were not real Sith Lords, because the purpose of all 3 was just to serve Sidious.
Maul's actually the only one of those 3 who openly stopped serving Sidious and became a rival instead.
Sidious stomping him really has little to do with Maul's status, and more to do with not having had decades to refine his force abilities like Sidious has had IMO. Remember Maul was in a straight jacket for 10+ years, and was younger than padawan Obi-Wan when he got sliced.
Even if he Utilized a power such as FL, learning to shoot, absorb and deflect it, I really don't see how that would have stopped Sidious from owning Maul in any way, shape or form.
It was Sidious's decades of force mastery (and possibly higher force potential) that allowed Sidious to own Maul, and has nothing to do with knowing a larger variety of Sith powers.
In terms of Maul's actualized power, I suggest looking at his other feats, instead of looking at how easily Sidious stomped him:
Maul has shown himself capable of chucking Jedi shuttles, force choking Obi-Wan Kenobi, and consistently stalemating Kenobi in combat. He's also easily put Opress in his place, who has in turn taken out Jedi Council Masters, and even beaten Ventress. Maul has also proven he's capable of challenging Mace Windu. So he clearly ranks quite high in terms of actualized power, despite Sidious being much more powerful than him.
Originally posted by Nai
I wonder: How does this equip Maul with advanced training in the force, which he still does not demonstrate?
Again, that Maul doesn't demonstrate a wealth of esoteric Force techniques doesn't mean that he lacks knowledge of them. I'll refer you to Marka Ragnos, who doesn't wield any notable powers in his few appearances. Even when possessing Tavion, Ragnos largely relies on use of his scepter rather than applying vast dark side knowledge. As you're wont to remind us, absence of proof is not necessarily proof of absence.
Originally posted by Nai
His survival isn't necessarily dependant upon his strength in the Force or aspects of his training linked to it.
The StarWars.com editorial video "Best Star Wars Villains" {wherein Maul ranked number 4} claims that Maul survived his injuries on Naboo because he was "so strong with the dark side."
Originally posted by Nai
In fact, the "punishment" Sidious did subject him to, giving him a higher resistance against (potentially deadly) shock and pain, did probably help him more than anything Sidious taught him regarding the Force.
I'm not sure how that would enable him to survive a complete bisection and a decade without proper medical attention. I'm not a physician, but I imagine there are limits to what a high pain threshold can allow one to endure.
Though, for what it's worth, Obi-Wan theorizes that Maul's survival owes something to a deep knowledge of the dark side.
Which would align with what DP's arguments and remarks from Filoni, Witwer, et al. that Maul was trained to be more than just an assassin.
Originally posted by Nai
Or was it, that one can just cling onto hatred in order to survive. So Maul is the less impressive PT era version of Sion?
Per Sion's own admission, his invulnerability owes to local areas strong in the dark side. Maul's abilities may very well be totally different and owe to multiple factors: dark side knowledge, extensive training, and hatred. Who says otherwise?
Originally posted by Nai
And with "much more" you mean "scheming mastermind", because that is all that is mentioned beyond Maul's skill as an assassin.
For starters, that's certainly an entirely new dimension to the character than what was present in his Legends interpretation. Maul's skillset has dramatically expanded in canon. 👆
Originally posted by Nai
May I, once more, ask how that helps him to put up resistance / attacks in a battle of Force abilities?
No one claimed that Maul being a scheming mastermind enables him to resist such things. But there's already much indicating that Maul's training involved more than swinging a lightsaber very well, which is what I believe you were implying.
Originally posted by Nai
You seem to forget that Plagueis observed Maul's training first hand on several occassions. And while you may question Plagueis' conclusions, there is still nothing to contradict them.
Plagueis observed recorded instances of Maul's combat technique. I don't recall Plagueis observing his training at Sidious's hands for any notable duration and certainly not firsthand. Besides which, there's plenty. Sidious advertises Maul as a tool to be used by him and Plagueis; sources continue to describe Maul as a legitimate Sith Lord and one of the deadliest in history. We also now know that Maul's training included a considerable dimension of strategy that transcended mere fighting technique. And Maul alludes to a level of Sith training that enabled him to survive bisection and a decade of exile.
Originally posted by Nai
Yes, Gideon. You do notice, that I was precisely arguing the point, that Maul lacked ambition to become as powerful as his master, remained in the position of "assassin" and "apprentice" and didn't develop advanced skills in the Force because of that? 😉
Again, in Plagueis's estimation. On the other hand, Maul believed something entirely different: his hatred of Obi-Wan stems from the fact that he feels Kenobi robbed him of a greater destiny per the season 4 Clone Wars finale. The official website says that Maul remembers "his Master had bigger plans for him."
Which also requires the assumption that the lack of desire to overthrow Sidious equates to a lack of desire to increase knowledge of the Force.
Originally posted by Nai
Again, you fail to see my point.
I'm well aware of the fact, that Dooku does hold Maul in high regard. He does call him "skilled" after all - a judgement that, coming from Dooku, is reserved for people who have demonstrated quite some talent. Yet, he calls Maul "animal" and "beast" nonetheless, indicating that - from his perspective - Maul was missing something to elevate him to the position of a "human" or a "Sith Lord". Could it be, that it was the advanced command of the Force, that Dooku himself demonstrates multiple times in the saga (e.g. Force Lightning and the redirection of that energy in AotC) and that was the thing he respected (even feared) Sidious for?
More likely, it's an observation that stems from Stover!Dooku's xenophobia and racism, which was established thoroughly in the preceding chapters.
Originally posted by Nai
Where does that happen, Gideon? Maul as we see him in The Clone Wars isn't fundamentally different from the character we observe in all other sources. He is rather gifted, when it comes to lightsaber combat, yet, he still lacks any demonstration of advanced force abilities. In fact, he is so weak in that regard, that Sidious can casually own him, with lightning, with telekinesis - it doesn't even matter. He doesn't even try. Once his lightsaber is taken away from him (with the Force - something he also fails to prevent) he begs for mercy. Maul is roughly as much a threat for Sidious as Ventress is for Yoda, with the Jedi Master just being less inclined to demonstrate his superiority in a lightsaber fight.
Your conclusion that the fact Sheev can "casually own" Maul is a reflection of Maul's weakness. Maul's feats and accolades are such that it is more accurately a reflection of Sheev's great strength. There's no shame in being casually owned by history's most powerful and successful Sith Lord.
Originally posted by Nai
So I don't see much reason to keep Maul in high regard. He is, without doubt, an impressive lightsaber duellist. But so is Ulic Qel-Droma in "Redemption", who has about as much to offer in terms of Force defense as Maul does, but still posesses a deeper insight in the force (resisting force drain, which he taught to Anakin). 😉 As far as Sith Lords go, Maul does take a quite low position when it comes to power and overall ability.
Your argument hinges on a feat wars paradigm. That same paradigm requires other powerful Sith Lords a la Tulak Hord and Marka Ragnos to rank embarrassingly low as well. I don't subscribe to that theory. There's enough surrounding Maul with respect to feats and accolades to rank him extremely high among Sith.
Originally posted by Nai
Since there were none of them around in the time of Bane, I wonder how numerous those could have been 1,000 years later. 😄
Well clearly more than there were in Bane's time, eh? Sounds like they all came out of the woodwork to try to take a crack at ol' Sheev. That's the only way they'd stand a chance. excellent
So badass.
So what's the argument here? Maul isn't a legitimate Sith Lord because he doesn't use Force lightning? 😂
He had specialized training but he's a Sith Lord no less. Shouldn't be difficult for people to stomach. And his knowledge of the Force was pretty extensive, he just focused on different arts, namely concealment, invisibility, distractive telepathy, mechu-deru, extensive Force sense, enhancing one's natural senses to immense levels and so on. His usage of Force rage and telekinesis alone suggests a high level of mastery in either art, given that he's done things with both that most people and some Sith wouldn't show themselves capable of. His Force speed in particular is more impressive than most.
inb4 hurrdurr assassin
