Exar Kun vs. Palpatine

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You start out strong, and the more you keep going you self destruct. I don't even have to debate just point out your mistakes.

Since you're clearly incapable of doing either, that sounds like a pretty empty proclamation. 😕

IIRC, that same source states that jedi aren't telepaths and that they merely feel emotions, which is certainly not the case in well...a lot of cases.

Do you consider this to be an answer to my posting? If we - from now on - ignore every source that makes a vague/dubious or outright false statement somewhere, we can just ignore the entirety of the source material. If you have nothing to contradict the source, concede the point. Quite simple.

Yes if you don't mind, or page number at least. I'm pretty sure I still have that book here somewhere boxed up.

I've quoted it two times now, with page number. If you're too lazy to read what you reply to, I don't think that makes much sense. But, given my general generosity with morons (hint: yourself) once again:

"By using the Force to attune their entire body with their heightened reflexes, Jedi can use the skill commonly reffered to as the burst of speed to sprint with such velocity that they appear to vanish from their starting point. In unarmed combat, this ability can be utilized to bring a rapid end to a fight." - Jedi vs. Sith - The Essential Guide to the Force, p.71

So the ability is common among Jedi and it's explicitly stated to be used in combat. You were saying?

"Guri's hand was coming down like a blade at me. A death strike. I watched her hand descend, saw it moving to smash me, but it seemed so incredibly slow that I was able to roll aside and stand before the blow could land.[...]Guri seemed to be suddenly mired in thickened time." - Luke Skywalker, Jedi vs. Sith - The New Essential Guide to the Force, p. 72.

Luke Skywalker, making use of the ability in combat subconciously against a humanly fast assassination android (Guri) who appeared to move in slow-motion when he did so. Again: You were saying?

Bursts of speed as seen in TPM are used to cover a long distance in short time, not do a handful of moves, and keeping pace. Sidious is consistent with his speed. His equal, Yoda, replicated it in a defensive fashion against Koon, Tiin and [Mundi?]. I mean, do I need to give you a list of Sidious speed feats that are consistent with his take down of the B-Team.

First: See above. Then: How is running in a coordinated fashion ("cover a long distance"😉 different from running and moving your arm at the same time? If you can move your hands up and downwards and move your legs to run, you can just move them differently to archive any other movement maintaining that speed. There is no difference between what is shown in TPM and what Sidious does to the Jedi in RotS - or any other of his "speed feats". Fact. Accept it and move on.

I do since he was merely doing his best to depict what he was instructed to in the highest form of canon. Otherwise he didn't even know his character used a lightsaber until he was given an overview on his character's abilities. No reason for him to lie. This is all basically what Lucas wanted, and goes hand in hand with Lucas' statement regarding the B-Team being taking out so easily, this indicating it was just within Palpatine's ability to do it, no an unintentional display of force usage: speed.

What you do is of no interest here. You can believe that Sidious stunt-double is handing out canon facts until you are blue in the face, and it still doesn't make it count here, because he is not a canon source. End of story.
And the B-Team was taken out so easily, because they weren't expecting Sidious' to come charging them with a burst of speed and handn't time to react - which they didn't. That is what goes "hand in hand" with the highest form of canon, i.e. what we see on screen.

You may want to list those then. Kun was a spirit--invulnerable to lightsaber attacks--and was using Luke's friend/student as the muscle. Can Kun do this whole, mid-combat against his superior? And what I mean by superior is someone whose connection to the force is much stronger than his, connection and power in the force that is usually measured in basic TK.

Do you still miss when you keep arguing in circles? You're assuming that Sidious is stronger in the Force than Kun (without proof for that assumption), in order to prove that Sidious is stronger than Kun (i.e. can beat him in a fight)

Furthermore: Kun has blasted people around in combat situations (e.g. Aleema), even while being attacked with the Force himself. So?

All attacks except bricks? Hopefully you see where I'm going with this, because that wasn't a good example of a defense against just magic.

It most certainly wasn't. It was still better than your argument, that basically says "Because one individual, in one situation, did decide not to use magic in combat, magic must be useless in combat."

Probably huh?

Well you do realize that force powers of any kind can be blunted out if one force user is much stronger than the attacker, or even on par? That doesn't only apply to magic/sorcery, it's the same with TK, but in a duel those were the powers used by even powerful sorcerers, not magic.

Oh. Is that so? I've rarely seen force powers being "blunted out" but you're surely going to give me a list of examples on that. Then: The choice can be caused by a variety of reasons, but attempting to talk down the usefullness of Sith magic based on the single choice of a single individual in a single situation is absolute nonsense.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying sorcery can't be an advantage in some cases. Kun has his blasts, but lightning can produce similar effects against force users. Even some forms of TK attacks can out right produce similar effects as explosives. Mace, for instance, used a casual force wave that rendered a squad of destroyer droids into pieces of scrap, Maul and Savage have done the same against droids that were shielded.

I've yet to see people blasting holes through giant creatures with their TK / lightning or vaporizing inviduals with it.

I said majority of your argument, and it's a notion I'm not seeing backed up properly.

You are trying to strawman me, after I called you out on that attempt before. Are you that stupid? Really?

What powers? Zannah made use of dark side tendrils that can literally disintegrate body parts, but only made use of them by using outside powers to aid her in forming them, whereas Kun used an already powerful force user to start the attack, and then he joined in once Luke was down and defeated.

🙄
If Kun was capable of teaching the attack to Kyp, it stands to reason that he could use the attack himself as well. Is that basic concept above your head already? Shall I try to paint a nice picture to help you to comprehend it?

As for this "most devastating light side technique there is," with the exception of TK, or more so how it's used, light siders usually don't have devastating abilities.

If you want to contradict the source-material based on your rather twisted "thinking", you may try that around somebody else. Doesn't fly with me. That aside: TK isn't a "light side technique", in case you didn't notice that. And I'd consider cutting off people from the force pretty "devastating" much like Morichro, a technique taught to few Jedi, slowing down the body functions of opponents to a point where they are in suspended animation.

Furthermore, lightning is one of the most deadliest and devastating offensive force attacks, yet Maul tanked a prolonged attack and then proceeded to walk through it like nothing.

Oh. I hope you're not talking about Maul's little confrontation with Mirghella, because she clearly didn't use "lightning" on him like we know it from Sidious. And force lightning is far from being "one of the most deadliest an devastating offensive force attacks", given the variety of Dark Side powers that cause instant death.

I think Beni has addressed this point. Kun was just more powerful than the user of the ability, which is why it failed.

So Kun is more powerful than the guy who used the same technique to defeat Ancient Sith Lords in combat? So Odan, using your logic, must have been more powerful than any of the Sith Lords he attempted to use the technique on 1,000 years in the past, before spending a millenium to learn the secrets of the Force? The same Ancient Sith that are heralded as nigh godlike beings by various sources, making the people in the KotoR era look like children with toys? I'm curious.

And that aside: This kind of reasoning is obviously false, given that Kyle Katarn was capable of utilizing the same technique against Jerec, who - at that point - was powered up by the Valley of the Jedi. Unless you want to assume that Kyle Katarn is above "godlike".

1) Dark side nexus

The temples are not a dark side nexus but a force nexus. I can just point once again to the fact that Luke's students make use of the energy later to prevent an attack on the Jedi Academy. And, ffs, the Academy remains on that spot for the next 30 years. Do you believe that Luke would train his students on a Dark Side nexus? Do you really think he wouldn't have recognized one, when standing on it, when he was easily capable of sensing the Dark Side from the cave he entered in ESB?

2) Luke was blasted by lightning before Kyp, and then Kun, used the ability on him.

Lightning like "black cracks in the Force". A description that doesn't fit what we usually see, when the ability manifests. And the lightning and the tendrils are hitting Luke at the same time, which means he wasn't "weakened" before.

3) The feat was performed by a force user whose raw power was once thought to be greater than Luke's own. The stronger you are in the force, the more effective any force power is. In this case, not only was it an amped Kyp, but also Kun who was adding more power to the attack.

The same Force user that thought his own power was insignificant compared to the abilities of Kun's spirit, who in turn was less powerful than Kun in his flesh. And Kyp wasn't "amped", just because you liked him to be. Usually, power needs to be drawn actively from the focal point that the temples on Yavin 4 represent and there is no mentioning that Kyp did so before attacking Luke. And he already had Luke on the floor before Kun joined the attack. So?

4) Sidious is a sorcerer, and was handed down knowledge from Plagueis, which would more than likely include dark side tendrils.

Actually, that is quite unlikely.
"The dark knowledge of the Sith teachings died with Kun: It is extremely unlikely that any records survive, either on Yavin Four, or elsewhere." - The Jedi Academy Sourcebook, p.50.
😉

Double standard much. I am hurting your ego when you have to resort to this just to win, which is pretty much the case in every debate we have. There's another one coming up too, and I'm calling you out on it.

*yawn*
I hate to burst your bubble, honey, but you and this entire place here, is nothing but cheap entertainment for me. Hence my rather infrequent visits here, with pauses ranging from some weeks to half a year. I don't care about you or about "winning" this debate (which is impossible, given the nature of the topic we're debating). I'm merely wasting some time here, discussing stuff I like talking about to keep my English skills working. Nothing more, nothing less. So the notion of you "hurting my ego" with anything done here is simply absurd. Did I hurt yours?

What defense did these non-force using fodder folk put up? Being unaware isn't exactly helping your case, especially not in the context of a duel.

🙄
I was clearly refering to the speed with which Kun was capable of executing a spell with an effect of that magnitude, which could be important, when he attempts to use spells with a lesser magnitude during a duel. Did you understand that now or is it time for another picture?

Hyperbole because you don't agree, eh? It happened, and the force did strike back in the form of Anakin, with Sidious being the direct target, indicating Sidious was the greater threat to the force. The force also just didn't let them assert control in their favor, which is why it took months of meditation to finally win their tug o war match with the force. You're also forgetting that not only did Sidious maintain that control long after Plagueis's demise, but also tightened his grip over it. The AOTC comic also shows a shadowy image of Sidious when Yoda tried to perceive the future. Thousands of jedi couldn't even break through the fog Sidious placed over them, greatly limiting their ability to farsight. Kun's feat on the senate doesn't come close in scale. Not that it matters; neither is combat applicable in combat against powerful force users. See I can admit that despite my bias, whereas your bias won't allow you to accept one feat, but you do another. Don't bring up bias, it makes you look silly and confirms your own bias against Sidious. If not, then you must think that later incarnation of Sidious can mind rape Kun, because he did so to a planet with a population two times greater than our own. After all, at least Sidious has done so against force users.

🙄
I'd suggest you re-read the passage of "Darth Plagueis" and readjust your judgement according to what really happened. Let me help you:

"The shift had been the outcome of months of intense meditation, during which Plagueis and Sidious had sought to challenge the Force for sovereignity and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side. Brazen and shameless, and at their own mortal peril, they had waged etheric war, anticipating that their own midi-chlorians, the Force's proxy army, might marshal to boil their blood or stop the beating of their hearts. Risen out of themselves, discorporate and as a single entity, they had brought the power of their will to bear, asserting their sovereignty over the Force.No counterforce had risen against them. In what amounted to a state of rapture they knew that the Force had yielded, as if some deity had been tipped from the throne." - Darth Plagueis, Chapter 24.

The Force did nothing to hinder the two Sith. "No counterforce had risen against them." There was no "tug o war" match agains the Force. The Force just "yields" without offering any kind of resistance. And you may want to consider how stupid the notion is, that the two Sith should have "overpowered" the Force by using the Force. Obviously, they were acting in accordance with the will of the Force, otherwise they would have ended precisely as they had thought. But the Force did do nothing to stop them instantly.

Instead: Anakin.
Did the question "why" ever ooze through the synapses of your brain? Probably not. Something like that would require creative thinking and I'm talking to a guy who added numbers to a character within the SW universe to create his nickname...

Don't you find it odd that, instead of just killing the Sith on the spot, restoring balance, the Force comes up with Anakin Skywalker? In the particular fashion it did? It could have generated an avatar of the Light Side, the "perfect Jedi", but what does it do? The Chosen One is born on some backwater planet, where the Jedi don't find him until he is - technically - too old to be trained by them. Thus, he isn't introduced to the Jedi and their rules from an infant age on. He forms bonds to his mother and Padme - both leading to his descend to the Dark Side.

But why? Because the Force allowed it to happen, because the Force wanted it to happen. Apparently, the Force didn't want the "perfect Jedi", but a Chosen One that is standing between the things represented by the Jedi and Sith. This is why Anakin is the perfect choice for the Father when it comes to his own replacement - a figure standing between Light and Dark, maintaining the balance. And this is what reflects in all of his choices and actions.

So not only should you not make the mistake of attributing the shift and its after-effects to Sidious alone (because Plagueis was involved quite a bit). In fact, you should take into consideration, that the Force allowed them to do what they did and probably even wanted it to happen. Of course, you don't have to accept that idea, but attributing the effects of the shift to Sidious' power is nothing but nonsense only a die hard fanboy could come up with. But you aren't one, are you, What's-Your-Name?

You should question your own reading comprehension.

The text makes it very clear that Kyp attacked Luke with two different attacks, with Kun joining in the moment Luke attempted to strike back. Luke also held back in fear of tapping into his anger. Yoda didn't even prepare Luke for force lightning, so that also doesn't say much. What defenses did Luke use, some healing abilities?

🙄
Apparently, you still don't get it. I was pointing out that Kun did attack Luke on his own, which is stated rather clearly here:

"The ancient Dark Lord of the Sith lashed out with waves of blackness, driving long icicles of frozen poison into Luke's body."

This is a third attack, after the first two coming from Kyp and after aiding Kyp's second attack.

Kun wasn't powerless otherwise he wouldn't be able to add to the attack. Hyperbole! lol

He was powerless compared to his living self. I thought, the meaning of this statement was clear to every intelligent...Oh. Nevermind...

TK attack have been defended against numerous times.

You may want to list some of the "numerous" incidents...

Force auras are used for direct TK application. Are you new to SW. The fact that Savage had to go berserk to force choke both Dooku and Ventress at the same time and strain to maintain his grip, would suggest that it's not easily performed unless there is a vast power gap. Another example is Ventress, who also had to go berserk in order to choke Kenobi and Skywalker and scream and grunt, just as Savage did, indicating immense exertion, whereas Sidious casually chokes Dooku from across the stars, and easily pin Maul and Savage to the wall, while cackling. Could this be because Sidious just hold tremendous power over them even in an area they excel in. And no Sidious didn't build Maul to be weak to his own TK. TK is TK. Sidious is just vastly more powerful than him despite Maul's own feats of owning jedi masters with it, moving ships around, and collapsing cave ceilings and tunnels.

Its pretty hilarious how you try to counter a point by producing walls of text that don't even touch the subject in question. My point is, that we have never seen somebody "resisting" a telekinetic attack. The two closest incidents to this would be Kas'im summoning a force shield to block the direct effects of a force wave Bane did send at him. And that situation in the RotS duel between Obi-Wan and Anakin, where they both apply a force push at the same time but into opposing directions - with the effects still kicking in after some moments.

Outside of that, I can't remember somebody instantly "blocking" an attempted telekinetic attack, thus making it rather useless to assume that a sucessfully used TK attack demonstrates the superiority of a force user over another, no matter how "easy" it looked.

And I never said that Sidious made Maul weak to his TK. I've mentioned that Sidious trained Maul as a "tool" to combat Jedi. Since the latter seldomly use the Force in an offensive way, there was no need to instruct Maul in defensive force techniques, right? Especially given the fact, that Sidious wanted to be able to get rid of his apprentice, should the need arise to do so.

Sith. Magic. Not. Only. An. Aspect. Of. The. Force. In. Which. Another. Wouldn't. Have. A. Defense. Against.

Hopefully the periods will help you to read it slow to better understand. I can make the claim that Talzin can defeat just about anyone due to the fact that she has powers that aren't sith or jedi based. That's the logic you're using regarding sith magic.

I know English isn't your first language but nothing I said was hard to grasp. Or perhaps you're not understanding my point, which would explain your arguments.

That.Reply.Still.Does.Not.Make.Sense.As.A.Counter.To.My.Argument.

You are still attempting to strawman me, and it's starting to get old. My argument is not that, due to not knowing a defense against Sith magic, Sidious would lose to Kun. My argument is, that utilizing Sith magic, gives Kun a variety of offensive options, where Sidious, up to this point, is limited to two: TK and Lightning. Nothing more, nothing less. Apparently, you didn't understand my point. Can't say I'm surprised about that...

Nah, you're just being desperate and probably questioning your own. I can tell your having a hard time, and getting tangled up in your own arguments. You're too competitive, but also a sore loser.

Why so angry, Honey? First off: I think it should be "you're having a hard time", if my secondary language English skills aren't too bad. That aside: Nope. I'm not having a hard time, given that I, unlike a certain other person here, am not inclined in fighting for my personal hero in the saga, which leads to me throwing temper-tantrums in a debate. And "being competitive" would imply that there was any sort of "competition" around. Can't see any. So far, I've taken an "unwinable" stance and am still owning the debate, due to a lack of reasonable oposition. But thanks for letting me know your opinion about my person, although it is - much like yourself - absolutely insignificant. 👆

Uhhh, ok.

Anywho, if your logic applies to night sister magic, why dismiss my point about Talzin? And why keep on with the apples and oranges? You're not making much sense. I've listed magic Talzin can pull off instantly, which also includes magical shields that can withstand firepower from armies. Doesn't matter that her magic comes from the life force of Dathomir, because that's where Sidious battled her and was overpowering her with his basic powers. BTW, Talzin has shown abilities such as teleportation and conjuring physical objects from thin air even while off world.

You sure aren't following. That they are different in title (Sith magic/nightsister magic) doesn't separate the logic you're using in order to create a case for Kun winning.

*sigh*
Must I, once more, point out the errors in your reasoning. Here we go again:

By using Sidious fight against Talzin as a reference point, you want to get the point across that Sidious can win against opponents utilizing "magic". You then went out at lengths to explain how impressive Talzin's magic abilities were, trying to get the point across, that Sidious can beat a powerful magic user in combat. Thus implying that he can do to Kun what he did to Talzin. Hence why I was pointing out the difference between Sith Magic / Nightsister Magic and calling you out on (at least in an indirect fashion), comparing apples to oranges. Did you get that now?

But Kun and Talzin are not compareable and neither is their application of magic. Kun uses magic in an exclusively offensive fashion. Talzin did this precisely twice in combat, when attempting to blast Mace Windu with some magic attack, that left damage behind compareable to that of a blaster shot and was easily dodged. And when attacking Sidious with her own version of lightning.

Compare that to Kun's amulets generating room sized beams that created massive explosions and vaporized Massassi on the spot. In her fight against Sidious, Talzin does not use her magic in an offensive fashion beyond lightning. She tries to take over Dooku but is driven from that body and after that, she just uses the lightning. And does so quite nicely, considering that she lasts against Sidious lightning and even keeps her defense up when Dooku joins his master on the attack. With kind of contradicts your claim, that Sidious did "overpowered her with his basic powers".

Dooku was weakened and drained by Talzin prior, meanwhile Talzin was getting amped by Maul's life force right when her powers were being pushed towards her, being overpowered by Sidious's own power. Dooku entered right after, then we see her on her knees only focusing on a defense. And this was Talzin in the heart of her power. She wasn't pulling bunnies out her ass or setting Sidious's heart on fire with the wave of her hand or cutting his testicles off by conjuring a sword through them, despite being a potent sorceress.

Can it be that you conveniently forgot something quite important. Hmm. Let me see. How about the fact, that Talzin just existed as a non-corporeal being that needed to drain Dooku in order to become corporeal again? So while this fight happened in the heart of her power, I seriously doubt that she was at the hight of her power, too. And she was amped? She refused to draw upon Maul's strength, advising him to flee from the place. I wonder how you have "missed" that. So it was her (probably weakened self) against Sidious. And that looks pretty even. There is no "pushing back" of her powers until Dooku joins the fray on Sidious' side, which marks the switch from Talzin channeling her "green lightning" at Sidious to her use of her "shield". With the latter still capable of keeping the two Sith at bay for a short period of time. In fact, Talzin doesn't go to her knees before she removes her focus from the Sith to force push Maul out of the scenery.

My point is, despite displaying a larger range of abilities than Sidious has shown by that point, she was proven to be his inferior in combat, which pretty much debunks your argument for Kun to win. I can more easily say Sidious choke Kun out with the force. What would be your counter argument?

First: See above. Then: As I already said: You're comparing apples to oranges. Kun's arsenal of offensive abilities is far beyond that of Talzin, who pretty much just uses her own version of Force lightning. How would Sidious react to dark side tendrils lashing at him from the ground for example? Use Force Lightning on the floor? And how could he block Kun's amulet blasts that are far beyond anything Talzin has brought to the table when it comes to destructive ability? What would be your counter argument, since your attempt to talk down Kun based on the feats of an entirely different user of entirely different magic failed so miserably?

Is this a contest of who of who has more sources? Work on putting those sources in better perspective in vs matches. At least you can't accuse me of ignoring those sources, because I haven't.

Oh. You haven't? It pretty much looks like you did, given that you are trying to argue "Talzin vs. Sidious" here instead of "Kun vs. Sidious", given that you have still not found an answer how Sidious' would defend himself against the attacks unique to Kun. But maybe you planned to do something like that somewhere in the future. I do believe in the notion that even someone like you can – occassionally – make sense. 👆

Examples are used to refute points, and I used her as a way to turn your logic against you. If you were following you'd know.

Nope. You didn't. You're just operating with faulty reasoning, in order to attack a strawman argument I've never made ("magic" > "conventional force abilities"😉, since you have nothing to refute my actual points. Sad.

Then why mention it as a feat for Kun. He merely added power to an attack on a weakened Luke, who was attacked with lightning before hand. The sorcery didn't even happen instantly, lightning was used first, then they started using tendrils after Luke was down and weak. How on earth would that apply on Sidious. Tell me when you're going to provide me what I'm asking you? No need to get mad.

Do I really need to spell out anything for you? And would you please stop lying. First:

Kyp stretched out both hands and blasted Luke with lightning bolts like black cracks in the Force. Dark tendrils rose up from gaps in the temple flagstones, fanged, illusory vipers that struck at him from all sides. Luke cried out and tried to strike back[...]"

The lightning and the tendrils are summoned at the same time and hit Luke together. Then his attempt to strike back (with us having no idea if this could have been sucessful) is hindered by Kun adding power to the attack and attacking Luke with another power of his own. Second:

My point here is, that Kun was capable of teaching Kyp force techniques capable of overpowering Luke's force defense. That leads to the suggestion, that Kun on his own was capable of using the techniques himself. And since Kyp always perceives the power of Kun's spirit as greater than his own – while Kun himself was weaker than himself in his flesh – it stands to reason that a living Kun could perform the same attack on Luke with greater efficiency than Kyp could. Did you understand that now?

Lol, now it's Gideon thinking for me, not me just being a Sidious fanboy, as shown by my username?

I didn't say anything about "thinking", because something like that is certainly not going on here. It's merely a skimming through source-books with confirmation bias at the wheel to pick up quotes that [seem to] support your opinion, ignoring implications to every other view. And Gideon does - or rather did - this for a lot of people here, who are either too stupid or too lazy to think for themselves. You're just one among many, but probably the prime example why one should be careful,when following the "masses". Sometimes the "m" is silent. 😉

Nai slaughterhousing tbh.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Nai slaughterhousing tbh.

Cut it out. It's only funny when Cart does it...unless you're serious and actually think rehashing defeated points is slaughterhousing (wouldn't be surprised actually)?

In that case, beat it.

Nai
He was powerless compared to his living self. I thought, the meaning of this statement was clear to every intelligent...Oh. Nevermind...

I don't have my JAT books on-hand. Can you provide the relevant passage that confirms this?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Cut it out. It's only funny when Cart does it...unless you're serious and actually think rehashing defeated points is slaughterhousing (wouldn't be surprised actually)?

In that case, beat it.

You're trash

Since you're clearly incapable of doing either, that sounds like a pretty empty proclamation. 😕

Eh, I was more referring to your intros, which would be new to the newer posters, bu they adapted and were all over you, causing you to grasp in desperation as you are now.

Do you consider this to be an answer to my posting? If we - from now on - ignore every source that makes a vague/dubious or outright false statement somewhere, we can just ignore the entirety of the source material. If you have nothing to contradict the source, concede the point. Quite simple.

Your desperation is showing again. I only dismiss contradiction. Not to mention that source is very much written in-universe. I mean, you'll dimiss the simple fact that Sidious is the most powerful force user because of it, despite there being no contradiction to that claim.

By using the Force to attune their entire body with their heightened reflexes, Jedi can use the skill commonly reffered to as the burst of speed to sprint with such velocity that they appear to vanish from their starting point. In unarmed combat, this ability can be utilized to bring a rapid end to a fight." - Jedi vs. Sith - The Essential Guide to the Force, p.71

So the ability is common among Jedi and it's explicitly stated to be used in combat. You were saying?

"Guri's hand was coming down like a blade at me. A death strike. I watched her hand descend, saw it moving to smash me, but it seemed so incredibly slow that I was able to roll aside and stand before the blow could land.[...]Guri seemed to be suddenly mired in thickened time." - Luke Skywalker, Jedi vs. Sith - The New Essential Guide to the Force, p. 72.[/B]

Luke did almost the same thing when tapping in the dark side, and so have several other force users; it's called dark rage, something Palpatine is a master at and can summon at will. Neophyte Luke's performance doesn't contradict that. All it means, is that Luke's command of the force by that point wasn't sufficient to do so consistently. It certainly doesn't reflect Palpatine's capabilities.

I'm saying, you should move on.

There is no difference between what is shown in TPM and what Sidious does to the Jedi in RotS - or any other of his "speed feats". Fact. Accept it and move on.

From what was shown in TPM, yes, there is a huge difference. One is travel speed the other is combat speed. It's what separates a track star from a professional fighter. Fighting requires more skill and a much faster thought process. This is common sense, Nai.

What you do is of no interest here. You can believe that Sidious stunt-double is handing out canon facts until you are blue in the face, and it still doesn't make it count here, because he is not a canon source. End of story.
And the B-Team was taken out so easily, because they weren't expecting Sidious' to come charging them with a burst of speed and handn't time to react - which they didn't. That is what goes "hand in hand" with the highest form of canon, i.e. what we see on screen.

And in your growing desperation, you can continue to make up excuses for the B-Team's quick demise, but Lucas was clear, they do not qualify as competition, meaning Palpatine cut them down with precise speed because he's just that good. No mention of being taken by surprise, which would be silly anyways, considering they had their weapons in a position ready to strike, meaning they were aiming at Palpatine, meaning that the only reason they couldn't react beyond that was because of a speed disparity.

Furthermore: Kun has blasted people around in combat situations (e.g. Aleema), even while being attacked with the Force himself. So?

Dooku, Maul and Savage have blasted around people too. Maul has dominated Kenobi while simultaneously crossing blades with another jedi, and then killing the jedi. All the while holding a prisoner in his arm. In other words, Maul easily slaughtered another jedi in combat, choked Kenobi out, and held on to his prisoner without breaking stride. Yet Sidious has battered him, and can overwhelm both Maul and Savage simultaneously.

Other than your implication of sorcery being better, what makes Kun's feat greater than Maul's, let alone Sidious's domination of him? That's your burden and your doing a lousy job. I rank Kun above Maul, but if your case was all I had to go on, I'd favor Maul easily.

It most certainly wasn't. It was still better than your argument, that basically says "Because one individual, in one situation, did decide not to use magic in combat, magic must be useless in combat."

Could it be that magic is just harder to use in combat? Or do we ignore consistency because you're not getting your way?

Oh. Is that so? I've rarely seen force powers being "blunted out" but you're surely going to give me a list of examples on that.

No, it's because you're pretending to be ignorant because you're desperate. Why don't we see a Gandolf vs Saruman type of fight instead of them relying on sabers when going up against peers? You've even claimed Sidious choosing not to fall off the chancellor's podium because he'd be unable to pull Yoda down with him because Yoda can more easily blunt out his direct TK attack as opposed to Maul and Savage when Sidious pulled them off the balcony.

What happened to that logic you were using when I asked why sorcery isn't the main power used in combat, even among sorcerers? They "probably" have means to blunt them out, was you assertion, but TK you're asking for proof?

I've yet to see people blasting holes through giant creatures with their TK / lightning or vaporizing inviduals with it.

Vader has done them all numerous times. But that's not the point. You're acting as if Kun can one shot powerful force users just because of what he's been shown to do against thick walls and sith worms on a DS nexus, despite the fact that he's never done so while off of one to another force user.

If Kun was capable of teaching the attack to Kyp, it stands to reason that he could use the attack himself as well.

It's funny how you keep accusing me of strawman when you're constantly doing it.

Never claimed Kun was incapable of the attack. I said it wouldn't be as effective as it was when Kyp and him both were applying it on a weakened Luke while on a nexus of dark side energy.

If you want to contradict the source-material based on your rather twisted "thinking", you may try that around somebody else. Doesn't fly with me. That aside: TK isn't a "light side technique", in case you didn't notice that. And I'd consider cutting off people from the force pretty "devastating" much like Morichro, a technique taught to few Jedi, slowing down the body functions of opponents to a point where they are in suspended animation.

That--that wasn't the point.

Just to make it more simple. Shrugging off a devastating attack from force users who are not as powerful as the person they're using it against, isn't anymore impressive than shrugging off far more devastating dark side attacks. I thought you conceded this notion anyway? Is this just you being too competitive?

Oh. I hope you're not talking about Maul's little confrontation with Mirghella, because she clearly didn't use "lightning" on him like we know it from Sidious. And force lightning is far from being "one of the most deadliest an devastating offensive force attacks", given the variety of Dark Side powers that cause instant death.

Lightning can and has caused instant death. But, again, this where the argument of the power of both individuals come in, hence you using Sidious to differentiate lightning attacks on account the strength of the two different force users applying it.

Self defeat.

I'll get to the rest later, and if you are genuinely arguing for the purpose of an honest discussion then I'll visit some respect threads and get your scans, or you can (Vader's TK, Maul's feats, or whatever). Most of this, I know you know about, which is why you're coming off as beng very desperate, and I don't have time for bitter people who hate losing.

In the mean time, provide me conclusive feats regarding sorcery that Kun can use in combat other than his blasts, because I've debunked the tendril feat. It's never been shown to happen instantly, not nearly as instant as TK/lightning, which explains why Kyp used lightning first. I've only skimmed your argument, so if you have then disregard this paragraph, and I'll look later. Because so far non of it is any more applicable than Talzin's magic.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
You're trash

Why, though?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Why, though?

Your profile pic makes you appear to be a dreaded PT fan

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Your profile pic makes you appear to be a dreaded PT fan

Intrepid thought it was Sidious at first.

But yes, I am. How about Nai's? I'm glad he changed it and the signature, with his neck stretched way out like "I'm here guys."

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Intrepid thought it was Sidious at first.

But yes, I am. How about Nai's? I'm glad he changed it and the signature, with his neck stretched way out like "I'm here guys."

1. Intrepid's a good man. He was driven from formal society because people like you misunderstood him. A tragedy indeed

2. Firstly, Nai-neck >>> PT. Secondly, he's the Devil's Advocate, perfectly objective, waging a noble war against incoherent fanboys like you

DMB killed Intrepid because he's anti freedom of speech.

This is intense. 🤪

Originally posted by carthage
DMB killed Intrepid because he's anti freedom of speech.

Intrepid is the one who birthed you into your current status. Show some respect pls

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
You're trash

Originally posted by Jmanghan
And your mother is a whore.

Need I be reminded?

I remember fondly DMB crying like a girl because Intrepid was beating him in a debate in his Respect thread on Star Wars forum. Thus the Bane dies movement was born, RIP Intrepid you were a martyr for the cause

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Need I be reminded?