Exar Kun vs. Palpatine

Originally posted by Trocity
Lol what? Amulet blasts are the only combat-related force power he's displayed that Palpatine can't also use, and he never even uses them in a combat scenario...

Erm. What?
So...the fight against a giant Sith Wyrm isn't "combat related" and neither is walking up to Aleema Keto and blasting her across the room? Nice to hear that, pal.

That aside, you may have forgotten the fact, that Kun did kill Odan-Urr with a single force attack, a thousand year old Jedi Master that fought Ancient Sith in direct combat. You also, apparently, have forgotten the fact that Kun's spirit managed to turn one of Luke's students into a charred skeleton and was capable of using a force technique that drove Luke's spirit out of his body.

Compared to that, RotS Sidious has TK and force lightning. I wonder how that would help him against Kun, equipped with amulets explicitly stated to boost his TK abilities and a force defense capable of resisting the Wall of Light attack. You tell me.

That didn't stop him from getting temporarily put on his ass by Odan-Urr, someone far, far less powerful than Palpatine...

I wonder where you get the idea from, that Odan-Urr is "far far less powerful" than Sidious. Any canon source stating that? Nope. Okay. So we have your speculation about the relative powerlevels of the two characters. Given that Odan-Urr is still 1,000 years old, I wonder why "age" is an argument for Sidious against Kun, but can be ignored when comparing Sidious to Odan-Urr. The same Odan-Urr that founded the great library on Ossus and was dwelling in the centre of Jedi knowledge for a millenium.

I think we're all aware of this, doesn't give him the win though.

Given that precisely nobody managed to do anything against those beams, I wonder what Sidious is going to do if Exar Kun walks into his office and, instead of delivering a force push like Yoda, he decides to fire an amulet blast.

No.

Thank you for putting my argument into question in such a thoroughly fashion.
Kun, according to DLotS had "more knowledge than he could ever use", including - but not limited to - the complete knowledge of Naga Sadow. I may point out that this knowledge was considered "too dangerous" by Sidious himself to share it with anybody or make extensive use of it himself (The Essential Guide through the Force). The very same source of knowledge would, if we believe Nadd's word on the issue, have enabled Kun to create a new body for the deceased Sith Lord. It did enable him to drain every living Massassi on Yavin 4 and seperate his spirit from his body. An action that, if it weren't for the intervention of the entire Jedi Order would have enabled him to run rampant through the Galaxy.

Sidious compares how exactly?

Yes he does, it's a shame that Palpatine is a more skilled duelist, a master of all 7 lightsaber forms, and far faster than Kun.

It's a shame that you haven't got a single ounce of proof for any of the claims you make.

A lot more than Exar Kun, who happens to be my favorite Sith Lord.

Of course. Hence your inability to form a reasonable argument and your lack of knowledge regarding Kun. Weeee.

@EmperorSidious2
Your posting style gives me instant headache.

@Sinious

Are you trying to bring these forums back to life or do you actually think Kun wins this?

Given that Kevin J. Anderson, the creator of Kun, couldn't say whether Kun or DE Sidious was the most powerful Sith Lord, I guess that RotS Sidious is no match for Kun. Especially not, when DE Sidious claims himself, that he has become significantly more powerful than his RotJ counterpart who already had two decades more experience than his RotS self. You disagree?

Originally posted by Nai

[b]@Sinious

Given that Kevin J. Anderson, the creator of Kun, couldn't say whether Kun or DE Sidious was the most powerful Sith Lord, I guess that RotS Sidious is no match for Kun. Especially not, when DE Sidious claims himself, that he has become significantly more powerful than his RotJ counterpart who already had two decades more experience than his RotS self. You disagree? [/B]

I don't think that is exactly what he said. Can you share the quote to refresh my memory?

Also, I hear that guy isn't a very reliable source.

Not to mention Sidious even as of ROTS surpasses Kun in showings by a margin.

lol Kevin's unofficial opinion is irrelevant when we have a myriad of canonical (to Legends, at least) sources proclaiming Palpatine even as of RotS as the most powerful Sith Lord in history. Kun had one to contradict that back in 2002/2004 or something, and Palpatine has had many quotes to establish his superiority since.

I assumed he was trying to make a case for spirit Kun tbh.

Palpatine's quotes apply to spirit Kun as well.

Does it apply to Sith that came after Sidious?

If you mean in-universe chronology, as in Krayt and Caedus, then obviously yes.

As for out-of-universe dates, as with Vitiate, frankly, yes. I know it sparks debate about how it couldn't have possibly included Vitiate since people didn't know Vitiate would be created when they wrote the quote etc. - which is fine, but Palpatine is an exception. He's had numerous quotes confirming his superiority over all other Sith throughout the decades - he's basically always been number 1, and to me it's safe to say that it's not going to change unless we have an explicit retcon detailing Vitiate's superiority. Otherwise, the creation of every new character simply follows the laws that have been previously set - in this case, being less powerful than Palpatine.

Nah, I was talking about in-universe chronology.

Well, the ones that say "in history" come from sources that depict post-Palpatine events as well, so it refers to every Sith in history.

I'm pretty sure some people would disagree with that.

I have no objections though. 😄

Well, people have objections with everything. Not that I care, though.

Originally posted by SunRazer
lol Kevin's unofficial opinion is irrelevant when we have a myriad of canonical (to Legends, at least) sources proclaiming Palpatine even as of RotS as the most powerful Sith Lord in history. Kun had [B]one to contradict that back in 2002/2004 or something, and Palpatine has had many quotes to establish his superiority since. [/B]

Excuse me.

The "myriad of canonical sources" you're talking about boils down to:

[list]
[*]the personal opinion of a historian, with an unclear reference to Sidious power (political? force?) in the "New Essential Chronology".
[*]the personal opinion of Darth Vader with a clear reference to Sidious political and military power in a Visual Guide.
[/list]

That's it. In turn, you have The Official Star Wars Fact File labeling Kun the "most powerful and dangerous of the Sith Lord". When it comes to "definite statements", Kun wins this hands down.

If you mean in-universe chronology, as in Krayt and Caedus, then obviously yes.

As for out-of-universe dates, as with Vitiate, frankly, yes. I know it sparks debate about how it couldn't have possibly included Vitiate since people didn't know Vitiate would be created when they wrote the quote etc. - which is fine, but Palpatine is an exception. He's had numerous quotes confirming his superiority over all other Sith throughout the decades - he's basically always been number 1, and to me it's safe to say that it's not going to change unless we have an explicit retcon detailing Vitiate's superiority. Otherwise, the creation of every new character simply follows the laws that have been previously set - in this case, being less powerful than Palpatine.

What?

So, by nothing more than you saying so, Sidious is now "an exception" to common sense and logic? Really? I didn't expect much, but this is you limbo dancing your way under the lowest of thresholds in terms of reasonable thinking.

And also "The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia", which is an objective third-person viewpoint, and comes after the Fact File, and yes, it includes Exar Kun.

"Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s light and dark sides."

Don't tell me about common sense and logic if you're outright ignoring sources. Sidious having a mere two sources to confirm his superiority is absolutely laughable.

Nai, how would you compare them in dueling prowess? I personally have Sidious winning this fight based on his Lightsaber accomplishments. But i want to get your view on things, if you don't mind that is.

Nai thinks Sidious has no dueling feats worth mentioning (other than Vs Maul and Savage which he attributes mostly to Force Power), so it's obvious Kun stomps to him.

Originally posted by SunRazer
And also "The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia", which is an objective third-person viewpoint, and comes after the Fact File, and yes, it includes Exar Kun.

"Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s light and dark sides."

Don't tell me about common sense and logic if you're outright ignoring sources. Sidious having a mere two sources to confirm his superiority is absolutely laughable.

Do I miss something, that states Yoda and Sidious are the most powerful practicioners of the force in history or is that simply no part of the statement? I know that they are in their respective time and that quote tells us nothing else.

And stop attempting to worm yourself out of the dead end you've reached: First, I didn't "ignore" sources. You simple not managed to introduce them to the discussion. Your fault. This also applies to the rest of the "myriad of sources" that proclaim Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord ever, with a clear reference to his force abilities. Bring them or shut up.

Second, this has to do nothing with you attempting to defeat reason, logic and common sense with ipsedixitism. "There is a rule that Sidious is the most powerful, that I just made up. So he is! I win." And you dare to call anything "laughable"? Pff.

Originally posted by Nai
Is it out of fashion to deliver reasons and arguments in a discussion or do you people just become more stupid every time I visit this place and this is all you can do? 🙄

And of course Kun wins.

Reasons:

more force powers useable in combat

great force defense (that allowed him to tank a Wall of Light attack, the most devastating offensive move the light side has to offer)

amulets that do boost his abilities and can fire rather large and rather deadly beams

potentially greater Sith knowledge than Sidious himself ("more knowledge, than he could ever use"😉

And what exactly will this vast knowledge of the dark side bring to their engagement?

unique lightsaber (short hilted double blade) with likewise unique fighting style

What does Sidious have to offer?

i.e. he is his better in every conceivable way.

Originally posted by Nai
Excuse me.

The "myriad of canonical sources" you're talking about boils down to:
[list]
[*]the personal opinion of a historian, with an unclear reference to Sidious power (political? force?) in the "New Essential Chronology".
[*]the personal opinion of Darth Vader with a clear reference to Sidious political and military power in a Visual Guide.
[/list]
That's it. In turn, you have The Official Star Wars Fact File labeling Kun the "most powerful and dangerous of the Sith Lord". When it comes to "definite statements", Kun wins this hands down.

Source: Insider #86: Yoda's Right Arm

When Yoda crosses sabers with the movie's arch-villain, he doesn't launch into a pinwheeling display of acrobatics, as he did against Count Dooku in Episode II. Instead, Yoda faces the dark side's fury, channeled by the most powerful Sith Lord in history. "Rob Coleman wanted Yoda to feel the power of his enemy," says Wheless, "like a force he's never dealt with before."

Source: The Complete Visual Dictionary

Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil to ever use the Sith power bides his time.

Originally posted by Nai
Erm. What?
So...the fight against a giant Sith Wyrm isn't "combat related" and neither is walking up to Aleema Keto and blasting her across the room? Nice to hear that, pal.

That aside, you may have forgotten the fact, that Kun did kill Odan-Urr with a single force attack, a thousand year old Jedi Master that fought Ancient Sith in direct combat. You also, apparently, have forgotten the fact that Kun's spirit managed to turn one of Luke's students into a charred skeleton and was capable of using a force technique that drove Luke's spirit out of his body.

Compared to that, RotS Sidious has TK and force lightning. I wonder how that would help him against Kun, equipped with amulets explicitly stated to boost his TK abilities and a force defense capable of resisting the Wall of Light attack. You tell me.

I wonder where you get the idea from, that Odan-Urr is "far far less powerful" than Sidious. Any canon source stating that? Nope. Okay. So we have your speculation about the relative powerlevels of the two characters. Given that Odan-Urr is still 1,000 years old, I wonder why "age" is an argument for Sidious against Kun, but can be ignored when comparing Sidious to Odan-Urr. The same Odan-Urr that founded the great library on Ossus and was dwelling in the centre of Jedi knowledge for a millenium.

Given that precisely nobody managed to do anything against those beams, I wonder what Sidious is going to do if Exar Kun walks into his office and, instead of delivering a force push like Yoda, he decides to fire an amulet blast.

Thank you for putting my argument into question in such a thoroughly fashion.
Kun, according to DLotS had "more knowledge than he could ever use", including - but not limited to - the complete knowledge of Naga Sadow. I may point out that this knowledge was considered "too dangerous" by Sidious himself to share it with anybody or make extensive use of it himself (The Essential Guide through the Force). The very same source of knowledge would, if we believe Nadd's word on the issue, have enabled Kun to create a new body for the deceased Sith Lord. It did enable him to drain every living Massassi on Yavin 4 and seperate his spirit from his body. An action that, if it weren't for the intervention of the entire Jedi Order would have enabled him to run rampant through the Galaxy.

Sidious compares how exactly?

It's a shame that you haven't got a single ounce of proof for any of the claims you make.

Of course. Hence your inability to form a reasonable argument and your lack of knowledge regarding Kun. Weeee.

[b]@EmperorSidious2
Your posting style gives me instant headache.

@Sinious

Given that Kevin J. Anderson, the creator of Kun, couldn't say whether Kun or DE Sidious was the most powerful Sith Lord, I guess that RotS Sidious is no match for Kun. Especially not, when DE Sidious claims himself, that he has become significantly more powerful than his RotJ counterpart who already had two decades more experience than his RotS self. You disagree? [/B]

Basically all that you posted were advantages that can be overcome. Sidious I believe has more experience as he is older and has a knowledge of all known Sith Abilites as of ROTS and makes up new ones to his pleasure.

Dooku one of the most powerful force weilders in the Star Wars universe were afraid to go up against him by himself.

Sidious is no doubt the better lightsaber duelist of the two. He was able to stalemate yoda, stalemate mace windu, beat maul and savage at one time while not even trying, speed blitzed 3 highly skilled Jedi council masters, knows every form of lightsaber combat and many other examples.

In terms of the force. I don't see Kuns sorcery to be a deal breaker against Sidious as it can be defended against. His blast are his most aggressive powers I assume. This is a very powerful ability capable of killing spirits however I'm not sure how Sidious would react to this whether by dodging or possibly using tutamins.

His weapon is more of an advantage that can be overcome as ulic was able to at least contend or stalemate Kun when he fought with a single blade. However while I know he will be fighting with his double blades Sidious has knowledge of the double bladed lightsaber and also uses jar Kai so I don't see that being something that will save him.

@SunRazer

{The three sources in question, off the top of my head}

Vader: The Ultimate Guide:

Can't get this one to format properly.

Star Wars Insider #86:

"Who's Who: Imperial Grand Admirals":

lol @ me making stuff up. I'll just leave this, and before you say it, yes, I know they're individually old and whatever excuse you'll find, but the collective message should be clear:

When Yoda crosses sabers with the movie's arch-villain, he doesn't launch into a pinwheeling display of acrobatics, as he did against Count Dooku in Episode II. Instead, Yoda faces the dark side's fury, channeled by the most powerful Sith Lord in history."Rob Coleman wanted Yoda to feel the power of his enemy," says Wheless, "like a force he's never dealt with before."
-- Insider #86: Yoda's Right Arm

It quickly became clear to Luke that this decrepit and seemingly defenseless old man was masterfully adept in the ways of the Dark Side of the Force. Indeed, as Vader had warned, the Emperor had become the Dark Side's most powerful expression.
-- Dark Empire Endnotes

Even Ulic Qel-Droma would be envious of Palpatine. He had succeeded where all others had failed in taming the Dark Side.
--The Dark Side Sourcebook

Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.
-- Vader: The Ultimate Guide

Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s light and dark sides.
-- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

And why would have it to state in history when the guide is outright detailing all of history, lol? It considers all the events, including Kun, and if you actually read TCSWE, you'll notice they retconned Kun's Fact File accolade to stating "Once the most powerful of the Dark Lords" to make way for Sidious's accolade. In other words, your Kun quote is outdated.