Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Nope the 6k year old sith shrine + imbalancement nexus ritual are gtfo with that hyperbole
Shrine under Sidious's palace in new canon where it's not in old canon (EU). No hyperbole; Palpatine dies, dark side diffuses and balance is restored.
Palpatine should create his own business manufacturing DS nexuses. Vitiate and Bane would be his most frequent customers.
Don't be mad if Vitiate's not mad.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Your desperation is showing again. I only dismiss contradiction. Not to mention that source is very much written in-universe. I mean, you'll dimiss the simple fact that Sidious is the most powerful force user because of it, despite there being no contradiction to that claim.
Oh my.
First: All SW-sources are written "in-universe", from the novels to all sourcebooks. They always have a narrative that is dependant on the information presented within the fictional universe and they don't deviate from it. Hence your "fact" that Sidious is the most powerful force user, isn't a fact, but just an interpretation of occurances in the fictional universe. And by the way: To my knowledge, there is no source proclaiming Sidious the most powerful force user. That just happened in the fanboy brain of yours. And with the event of people like Vitiate, I daresay Sidious is not even the most powerful Sith Lord in the mythos.
Luke did almost the same thing when tapping in the dark side, and so have several other force users; it's called dark rage, something Palpatine is a master at and can summon at will. Neophyte Luke's performance doesn't contradict that. All it means, is that Luke's command of the force by that point wasn't sufficient to do so consistently. It certainly doesn't reflect Palpatine's capabilities.I'm saying, you should move on.
From what was shown in TPM, yes, there is a huge difference. One is travel speed the other is combat speed. It's what separates a track star from a professional fighter. Fighting requires more skill and a much faster thought process. This is common sense, Nai.
Thanks for not providing any kind of counter to my argument. The ability to use force speed in combat has been described as common for Jedi (no "dark rage" involved there), in the context of fights. Furthermore: How does fighting require more "skill" and "faster thought", when you - thanks to the force ability - are perceiving all opponents in "slow motion". How much skill is required to outmanouver statues? Sidious just needed to decide where to stick his lightsaber, being confronted with opponents that weren't moving at all and didn't have a chance to react to him, thanks to his use of force speed.
And in your growing desperation, you can continue to make up excuses for the B-Team's quick demise, but Lucas was clear, they do not qualify as competition, meaning Palpatine cut them down with precise speed because he's just that good. No mention of being taken by surprise, which would be silly anyways, considering they had their weapons in a position ready to strike, meaning they were aiming at Palpatine, meaning that the only reason they couldn't react beyond that was because of a speed disparity.
*sigh*
I'm not making up excuses for anything. The Jedi were surprised by his burst of speed and failed to react to it. With the only possible reaction would be to use the ability themselves to counter the attack. Why they failed to react to it - where Mace Windu does - would be another question.
Dooku, Maul and Savage have blasted around people too. Maul has dominated Kenobi while simultaneously crossing blades with another jedi, and then killing the jedi. All the while holding a prisoner in his arm. In other words, Maul easily slaughtered another jedi in combat, choked Kenobi out, and held on to his prisoner without breaking stride. Yet Sidious has battered him, and can overwhelm both Maul and Savage simultaneously.
I'm, once again, wondering, what that text should tell us that is useful for this particular discussion here. Kun's compareably powerless spirit was about to kill the entirety of Luke's student at once with a Force choke. The same compareably powerless spirit, that used Corran Horn as target practice for TK, breaking several bones in the Jedi's body, who was absolutely defenseless against that.
Shall I point out once more, that you have still failed to produce examples of force users sucessfully defending themselves against TK attacks in a successful manner?
Other than your implication of sorcery being better, what makes Kun's feat greater than Maul's, let alone Sidious's domination of him? That's your burden and your doing a lousy job. I rank Kun above Maul, but if your case was all I had to go on, I'd favor Maul easily.
Lmao. Your way of "thinking" is most amusing. So now, we take random feat of character A (Maul) compare it to a random feat of character B (Kun), and judge their "impressiveness". Then, discarding all other feats of character B, we make note that character A with the "more impressive feat" was beaten by character C (Sidious) and conclude that the same thing will happen to character B.
Maybe you want to reread my initial argument regarding Kun instead of getting entangled in that web of logical fallacies you call "mind" and try to make an argument from there.
Could it be that magic is just harder to use in combat? Or do we ignore consistency because you're not getting your way?
Laughable. Your point is still: "Because Sadow chose not to use magic on one occasion, it must be hard to use in combat for Kun."
We could talk about "consistency", if you'd focus your arguments on Kun, rather than pulling other people out of your ass in an attempt to talk down Kun from there. If you want to talk about "consistency", then I would have to point out that Kun used sorcery / his amulets in all of his direct confrontation, with the exceptions of the fights he chose to fight with his lightsaber. So what was your point again?
No, it's because you're pretending to be ignorant because you're desperate. Why don't we see a Gandolf vs Saruman type of fight instead of them relying on sabers when going up against peers? You've even claimed Sidious choosing not to fall off the chancellor's podium because he'd be unable to pull Yoda down with him because Yoda can more easily blunt out his direct TK attack as opposed to Maul and Savage when Sidious pulled them off the balcony.What happened to that logic you were using when I asked why sorcery isn't the main power used in combat, even among sorcerers? They "probably" have means to blunt them out, was you assertion, but TK you're asking for proof?
Is it strawman-time again?
First off: Let me compliment you on your lack of knowledge regarding the "Lord of the Rings" universe. Because not only is the guy called "Gandalf", but we never see a real "wizard duel" happening between them, aside of the little "TK" fight going on in the first movie. Where, what a coincidence, neither was capable of "blocking" the attacks of the other.
Then, I can't recall ever having made such an argument regarding Sidious and Yoda. So. Strawman-time.
That aside: You didn't ask why sorcery isn't the main power in combat among sorcerers. You did ask why Sadow wasn't using it against Kressh (and vice versa) and I just speculated. Now you're trying to generalize based on that single incident. But in general Sith magicians are using magic in combat. You may have a look at Queen Amanoa, King Ommin, Aleema Keto and - surprise - Exar Kun for reference.
Vader has done them all numerous times. But that's not the point. You're acting as if Kun can one shot powerful force users just because of what he's been shown to do against thick walls and sith worms on a DS nexus, despite the fact that he's never done so while off of one to another force user.
First: I'd love to see the instance in which Vader has done stuff like that.
Secondly: I'm not assuming anything you said above. And you're still ignoring the fact that the amulet blasts were fueled by Kun's own rage and not the force nexus of the great temple. Furthermore, I'm assuming Kun can cause quite some damage, given that Sith amulets have - in general - been described as "deadly". He has knocked out Aleema Keto with it, without a problem (even being far away from Yavin 4) while Ulic, utilzing the sister amulet of Kun's own, has knocked down Nomi Sunrider with a rather uncontrolled amulet blast.
So it stands to reason that, even if Kun - for whatever reason - can't replicate the strength of the blasts we've seen him projecting on Yavin 4, he would still be able to hurt / knock out / knock down Sidious, when hitting him with a blast, at least to the same extend that Yoda was capable of with a force push, when shoving Sidious backwards over his own desk. But Kun can fire stuff like that at will and with apparent ease, and has other abilities to back it up.
It's funny how you keep accusing me of strawman when you're constantly doing it.Never claimed Kun was incapable of the attack. I said it wouldn't be as effective as it was when Kyp and him both were applying it on a weakened Luke while on a nexus of dark side energy.
I'm not doing it, since I was merely pointing out what you kept ignoring and are still ignoring.
1) The Temples are not a nexus of dark side energy. It's a focal point for Force energy, which was later used by Luke's students. Fact.
2) Luke wasn't weakened, since both attacks hit him together. Fact.
3) Kyp still saw himself as less powerful than Kun's spirit, who in turn was less powerful than Kun in his flesh. Fact.
That--that wasn't the point.Just to make it more simple. Shrugging off a devastating attack from force users who are not as powerful as the person they're using it against, isn't anymore impressive than shrugging off far more devastating dark side attacks. I thought you conceded this notion anyway? Is this just you being too competitive?
What are you even talking about?
We don't know how Odan-Urr, a Jedi that was rather powerful in his "youth" and had a millenium to grow in strength from there, does rank in terms of "power" compared to Kun - other than the fact, that he is weaker. How much? Nobody knows. The next thing, that you so conveniently ignore, is the fact, that Kyle Katarn was capable of using the very same technique employed against Kun on Jerec, who at that point in time was empowered by the Valley of the Jedi. So, obviously, you don't just "shrug it off" because you are more powerful than the one you're using it against. And lastly: What "more devastating dark side attacks" are you refering to? Did I miss the instance in which Sidious was attacked with the Dark Side by somebody that was mentioned to be "more powerful than Odan-Urr", or are you - as usually - not making sense at all?
Lightning can and has caused instant death. But, again, this where the argument of the power of both individuals come in, hence you using Sidious to differentiate lightning attacks on account the strength of the two different force users applying it.Self defeat.
Yes. The "lightning" from Mirghella, however, can't be Sith Lightning, since that is a technique unique to the Sith. Apparently, she was using some kind of sorcery against Maul of unknown strength, and given that Maul just walks through it, would lead to the assumption that it was rather weak. Which is what I would expect from some random Nightsister. That Sidious is more powerful than that is hardly impressive, given that pre-DE Luke Skywalker's abilities were considered with awe on Dathomir.
I'll get to the rest later, and if you are genuinely arguing for the purpose of an honest discussion then I'll visit some respect threads and get your scans, or you can (Vader's TK, Maul's feats, or whatever). Most of this, I know you know about, which is why you're coming off as beng very desperate, and I don't have time for bitter people who hate losing.
I'm not "genuinely arguing for the purpose of an honest discussion". I'm arguing for the sake of an argument, which is why your mentioning of "desperation" is so hilarious. Being desperate would require "hope" in the first place, the hope to archive something for example. Doing serious "research" is probably not worth it, since I will most likely be gone for good (for weeks or months to come) before you can finish your "homework".
In the mean time, provide me conclusive feats regarding sorcery that Kun can use in combat other than his blasts, because I've debunked the tendril feat. It's never been shown to happen instantly, not nearly as instant as TK/lightning, which explains why Kyp used lightning first. I've only skimmed your argument, so if you have then disregard this paragraph, and I'll look later. Because so far non of it is any more applicable than Talzin's magic.
*facepalm*
The tendrils and the lightning still hit Luke together, which I've demonstrated multiple times now. So it is exactly as fast as lightning. Then you haven't "debunked" the feat, no matter how much you want to delude yourself into thinking you did. And you remain with your comparison of Talzin to Kun. Wow. I think I'm better off arguing a brick wall.
@Tempest
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I don't have my JAT books on-hand. Can you provide the relevant passage that confirms this?
Originally posted by Nai
First: I'd love to see the instance in which Vader has done stuff like that.Secondly: I'm not assuming anything you said above. And you're still ignoring the fact that the amulet blasts were fueled by Kun's own rage and not the force nexus of the great temple. Furthermore, I'm assuming Kun can cause quite some damage, given that Sith amulets have - in general - been described as "deadly". He has knocked out Aleema Keto with it, without a problem (even being far away from Yavin 4) while Ulic, utilzing the sister amulet of Kun's own, has knocked down Nomi Sunrider with a rather uncontrolled amulet blast.
So it stands to reason that, even if Kun - for whatever reason - can't replicate the strength of the blasts we've seen him projecting on Yavin 4, he would still be able to hurt / knock out / knock down Sidious, when hitting him with a blast, at least to the same extend that Yoda was capable of with a force push, when shoving Sidious backwards over his own desk. But Kun can fire stuff like that at will and with apparent ease, and has other abilities to back it up.
I'm not doing it, since I was merely pointing out what you kept ignoring and are still ignoring.
1) The Temples are not a nexus of dark side energy. It's a focal point for Force energy, which was later used by Luke's students. Fact.
2) Luke wasn't weakened, since both attacks hit him together. Fact.
3) Kyp still saw himself as less powerful than Kun's spirit, who in turn was less powerful than Kun in his flesh. Fact.What are you even talking about?
We don't know how Odan-Urr, a Jedi that was rather powerful in his "youth" and had a millenium to grow in strength from there, does rank in terms of "power" compared to Kun - other than the fact, that he is weaker. How much? Nobody knows. The next thing, that you so conveniently ignore, is the fact, that Kyle Katarn was capable of using the very same technique employed against Kun on Jerec, who at that point in time was empowered by the Valley of the Jedi. So, obviously, you don't just "shrug it off" because you are more powerful than the one you're using it against. And lastly: What "more devastating dark side attacks" are you refering to? Did I miss the instance in which Sidious was attacked with the Dark Side by somebody that was mentioned to be "more powerful than Odan-Urr", or are you - as usually - not making sense at all?Yes. The "lightning" from Mirghella, however, can't be Sith Lightning, since that is a technique unique to the Sith. Apparently, she was using some kind of sorcery against Maul of unknown strength, and given that Maul just walks through it, would lead to the assumption that it was rather weak. Which is what I would expect from some random Nightsister. That Sidious is more powerful than that is hardly impressive, given that pre-DE Luke Skywalker's abilities were considered with awe on Dathomir.
I'm not "genuinely arguing for the purpose of an honest discussion". I'm arguing for the sake of an argument, which is why your mentioning of "desperation" is so hilarious. Being desperate would require "hope" in the first place, the hope to archive something for example. Doing serious "research" is probably not worth it, since I will most likely be gone for good (for weeks or months to come) before you can finish your "homework".
*facepalm*
The tendrils and the lightning still hit Luke together, which I've demonstrated multiple times now. So it is exactly as fast as lightning. Then you haven't "debunked" the feat, no matter how much you want to delude yourself into thinking you did. And you remain with your comparison of Talzin to Kun. Wow. I think I'm better off arguing a brick wall.[b]@Tempest
Click me. [/B]
Lord Sagax you are the most intelligent and open-minded person I have ever seen so far on Killermovies Forum. 🙂
All what you have said on this thread I'm agreeing with. 🙂