Bastila Shan vs Darth Sion

Fun fact: Beni denies the Star Forge is a nexus in general.

Good luck arguing with him. 😉

Huh

Vaguely recall lurking that

Don't remember what the discussion was or why it happened though

Though he kind of torpedoes himself if he argues that at all here given Bastila w/o an amp contending with Revan is even more hilariously outclassing Sion :hmm

Sort of like how to argue against your Revan primarily dueling while on a nexus argument in that Kun thread you had going? That ****er you were debating would need to torpedo Kun's force potential to do it :hmm

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
SureWhere Sion's considered "not that difficult" to kill by Meetra Surik per the Strategy guide narration? Bastila's fight with Revan was considered "fraught" and "frantic" . Shows Revan had to sort of try compared to the relative ease End of Game Surik had with Sion.

Boss difficulty naturally fluctuates player to player, on the basis on player skill, not anything grounded in lore i.e. non-canon.

Worth noting too that Sion was part of Malak/Revan's original empire too. He did learn much from Traya (IIRC the KOTOR campaign guide stated as much in his little bio :hmm), but growth in knowledge, especially with how frustrating Sion found Traya's teaching IIRC, doesn't necessitate a vast growth in overall power either in theory.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
All good points, but you are assuming Sion can even really contend with Shan. The guy has fallen time and time again to fodder Jedi. He can't compete with only one life.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Fun fact: Beni denies the Star Forge is a nexus in general.

Good luck arguing with him. 😉

Originally posted by Beniboybling
But are game mechanics really any basis for judging ability?

Game mechanics

You're getting that from narration from a strategy guide?

Boss difficulty naturally fluctuates player to player, the the basis on player skill, not anything grounded in lore.

Has nothing to do with player skill when you're discussing narration from the closest thing either of these things have to a novel

I'm really not following you. To my knowledge, strategy guides are as C canon as anything else

If you're going to argue from a standpoint of authorial intent?

We're at an impasse given I don't exactly stem from a place that believes in trying to appeal to shit you can't know without actually asking the ****er directly *shrugs*

Sion's mastery over the Force may be crude, but what he does have is a wealth of combat experience.

Not denying that

That bit was mostly to note that Sion was definitely beneath Shan during his tenure in Malak's empire given how the Shadow Hand/Apprentice is generally second only to the Dark Lord.

It was worth further note that while he grew in knowledge, his frustration with Kreia's teaching and his general obsession with having his hatred/power grow lends to the notion he probably didn't grow leaps and bounds between his time in Malak's empire and the Triumverate.

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Game mechanics

You're getting that from narration from a strategy guide?

Which for the record, state that Sion's abilities were great enough to draw the attention of Darth Revan (and Darth Traya). He's also been described as a "feared lightsaber assassin" by the Star Wars Insider.

Has nothing to do with player skill when you're discussing narration from the closest thing either of these things have to a novel

I'm really not following you. To my knowledge, strategy guides are as C canon as anything else

If you're going to argue from a standpoint of authorial intent?

We're at an impasse given I don't exactly stem from a place that believes in trying to appeal to shit you can't know without actually asking the ****er directly *shrugs*

Anything that doesn't contradict or exist purely for gameplay is C-canon.

https://twitter.com/HolocronKeeper/status/383263147445854208

What you describe as narration is a description of a game mechanic - boss difficulty. Sion's difficultly is supposedly "easy" but that's a pure and fluctuating game mechanic, not an indication of his skill, and it contradicts other sources. Hence why I question it's validity as evidence.

Heck the entire Trayus Academy is described as is a cake walk, that doesn't mean it actually was for the Exile.

That bit was mostly to note that Sion was definitely beneath Shan during his tenure in Malak's empire given how the Shadow Hand/Apprentice is generally second only to the Dark Lord.

1. This is DS Bastila, not LS Bastila who appears to be less powerful.

2. Malak may merely have given her the position due to her potential, which as a Padawan its highly unlikely she had yet fully realised.

That and her BM, there are also personality traits to take into account.

It was worth further note that while he grew in knowledge, his frustration with Kreia's teaching and his general obsession with having his hatred/power grow lends to the notion he probably didn't grow leaps and bounds between his time in Malak's empire and the Triumverate.

Namely, the ability to hold his body together through the sheer power of the dark side, as well as recover from mortal injury, which is pretty unprecedented. He also possesses advanced Force Drain abilities, capable of leeching off Bastila merely be being in her presence.

Taking that into account, even if Bastila is a superior duelist, that's no guarantee she can defeat him, as Sion can just get back up, and even if Bastila is a superior Force User, that's not guarantee she can defeat him, as Sion can drain that power, making himself stronger.

However aside from what I perceive as a very flawed comparison, I see little evidence to suggest that Bastila is either.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well I would go with Sion in all three really, not sure where all this Bastila hype is coming from.

Where is your Sion wank coming from?

The guy is literally worthless beyond a one trick talent that he has that happens to be disabled here.

Bastila takes it pretty solidly.

😐 Well that escalated quickly.

So you are pivoting around authorial intent on the strategy guide Beni? :hmm

That's fair.

I know this community uses it, so I can't exactly tell you not to.

So I won't bother convincing you there

Or at all really

As far as my purposes go, you've helped me feel my argument is fairly secure where I post normally given all I'm trying to establish is rough parity between Sion and Bastila to further put together a general puzzle for the KOTOR era

As for the second half of your post?

I'll see about looking at it later. Want to go catch up on some JJBA now.

Not sure what this has to do with authorial intent. Care to elaborate?

EDIT: Unless you mean intents to be taken as game mechanics, then yeah sure.

Yeah

Interpreting the narration as solely being about the gameplay and not also about the story

Given I've owned strategy guides that can also be used as something of a mini novelization (a good unambiguous example would be Nintendo Powers OoT guide if you don't mind me drawing from other franchises for a moment :maybe)?

I generally don't assume guides don't/can't function as both

Well fact remains that game mechanics and facts/story do not always align, and that a strategy guide's first responsibility is to the game mechanics, not the story.

So sure they can, but in this case I don't think the strategy guide is adequately portraying Sion's abilities. Its even more problematic to make a comparison between two different games/guides, where there is no guarantee of consistency.

And that's perfectly fair :maybe

Doesn't change how I think given your sole angle of attack was from this interpretation, but I certainly understand WHY you think it

So I won't bother using it as far as you're concerned here

Fair enough.

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
I don't follow kiddo

Where did I disagree with you in my post that exists to support Basila > Sion :hmm

Though wouldn't know anything about fodder Jedi and Sion

My memory is good, not edetic :maybe

Haven't played Kotor in a while, in the released version of the game, Sion doesn't fight any Jedi besides the Exile. In Cut-content he either wins or loses to Atton Rand, although Atton was trained to Kill Jedi and could resist force powers/mental attacks.

I think what's being referred to is this:

Sion embarks on a Jedi-assassination spree, "dying" many more times, but always ending more enemy lives.

Source: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

Course again, we don't know the circumstances of any of those fights.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
1. This is DS Bastila, not LS Bastila who appears to be less powerful.

Don't recall specifying an incarnation :hmm

That said, you guys don't just automatically assume when an incarnation isn't specified that they're at their strongest in a thread?

My bad if you don't, I'm somewhat used to doing so.

2. Malak may merely have given her the position due to her potential, which as a Padawan its highly unlikely she had yet fully realised.

Is it possible?

Sure

Do you have direct narrative evidence supporting it that contradicts the Shadow Hand/Apprentic = Second most powerful from the KOTOR Campaign Guide?

I'd like you to post it if you do

If not?

Not really sold on this bullet

Namely, the ability to hold his body together through the sheer power of the dark side, as well as recover from mortal injury, which is pretty unprecedented. He also possesses advanced Force Drain abilities, capable of leeching off Bastila merely be being in her presence.

His regen is sort of non factor in this fight seeing as I'm only really trying to gauge if she can KO/"kill" him once.

His drain is solid, though it's notable that even with Nihilus' help that he seems to have failed to sever Traya's connection to the Force with it entirely. Sort of evident by the fact that Surik was hearing Traya's voice in her head long before she actually got any of her powers back on Peragus.

Doesn't detract from either of their drains, but as Nihilus, a known quantity, failed with Sion's help to entirely **** Traya over, its hardly easy to judge how potent his overtly offensive drain would be alone as far as I can tell per how you guys generally handle feats :hmm

I know you were noting its more passive effects a la the Sith Assassins, but I can hardly think of a way to quantify how much of a difference the passive drain would make on combat. :hmm

Taking that into account, even if Bastila is a superior duelist, that's no guarantee she can defeat him, as Sion can just get back up, and even if Bastila is a superior Force User, that's not guarantee she can defeat him, as Sion can drain that power, making himself stronger.

Not debating over whether she can off him for good. I'm sort of skeptical she could without being generous with her Sever Force (of which she's actually noted to possess IIRC, if not "featless" by the standards held here)

Sion's immortality is the epitome of overrated, but he's also underrated in other areas. Sion one-shotted Kreia, who at this point in time had (alongside Atton and Meetra) already beaten specialized Jedi butchers who ambushed her and fed off her Force-sensitivity.

As a whole, though, Bastila is probably still the stronger combatant. Not sure how she eventually wins.

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Don't recall specifying an incarnation :hmm

That said, you guys don't just automatically assume when an incarnation isn't specified that they're at their strongest in a thread?

My bad if you don't, I'm somewhat used to doing so.

DS Bastila would have a better chance of winning though.

And I'm not native to these forums, I find the local customs strange.

Is it possible?

Sure

Do you have direct narrative evidence supporting it that contradicts the Shadow Hand/Apprentic = Second most powerful from the KOTOR Campaign Guide?

I'd like you to post it if you do

If not?

Not really sold on this bullet

Granted though there is not much proof he did given all his feats are nexus related, but his quasi-immortality and description as an "ultra-powerful monster of the dark side" (even if we take that as hyperbole) indicates they are at least comparable.

His regen is sort of non factor in this fight seeing as I'm only really trying to gauge if she can KO/"kill" him once.

Fatally even if she leaves herself exposed when expecting Sion to be wounded.

His drain is solid, though it's notable that even with Nihilus' help that he seems to have failed to sever Traya's connection to the Force with it entirely. Sort of evident by the fact that Surik was hearing Traya's voice in her head long before she actually got any of her powers back on Peragus.

Doesn't detract from either of their drains, but as Nihilus, a known quantity, failed with Sion's help to entirely **** Traya over, its hardly easy to judge how potent his overtly offensive drain would be alone as far as I can tell per how you guys generally handle feats :hmm

Sion doesn't raise a finger.

The KOTOR Campaign Guide says "They turn on her and drain her Force powers" but all I took it to mean is that Sion was complicit it in the act.

That said yes it is difficult to gauge, but its undoubtable it will have some effect, and I feel sway any disparity between their powers (if there is one) which can only be minimal.

Not debating over whether she can off him for good. I'm sort of skeptical she could without being generous with her Sever Force (of which she's actually noted to possess IIRC, if not "featless" by the standards held here)

One life Sion loses. He can use Drain to strengthen himself relative to Bastila's own power, but he probably still loses in a good fight.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I see, I just assumed we we're going with her classic incarnation, as DS Bastila is substantially different with different powers/personality.

That's fair

Just I tend to think about pitting characters against each other at their best

And I'm not native to these forums, I find the local customs strange.

Not exactly a native myself :maybe

I'm from the OBD/Narutoforums

One of the more prominent dipshits there that does physics bullshit for fictional character battles for fun :lmao

It says that now? Interesting.

IIRC, think it's around page 140ish, give or take 5 :hmm

Given that it's post KOTOR II, seems fair to apply it to Sion.

Figure its sort of a given he's in the top four Sith of the Triumverate era between himself, Nihilus, Traya, and Atris (during her brief stint anyway)

I'd consider him the weakest of the four, if not by a large margin, but he's still formidable enough.

However we are dealing Sion's KOTOR II incarnation. There is nothing preventing Sion from growing more powerful under Traya's tutelage (he is in fact stated to have "learned much" from her) and surpassing (DS) Bastila.

I'm aware

Though as noted, it's only said he learned much

Not that he specifically got too much more powerful. Sure, I guess getting some diversity would count as getting more powerful, but his general frustration with Traya's teachings would suggest to me that his growth probably wasn't exactly a spike in his growth

At least anymore so than compared to his time fighting on the side of Exar Kun and the Dark Wars.

Granted, I haven't played in a while, so the context of his frustration does somewhat elude me :hmm

Granted though there is not much proof he did given all his feats are nexus related, but his quasi-immortality and description as an "ultra-powerful monster of the dark side" (even if we take that as hyperbole) indicates they are at least comparable.

If you consider shit like the cut content, you do have shit like him being Force Crushed by Traya and walking it off

Let's bear in mind that, even if both were on a Nexus, Traya was still someone Surik had yet to surpass, and neither Sion or Traya's powers when drawing on Malachor should have been anymore amped than the other

So you do have something of a measuring stick, just nothing that distinguishes him too much from the surviving Jedi Council Traya stomped on.

There's also Chris Avellone advocating Sion could probably replicate killing shit as insanely durable as the Storm Beast (the species did barely survive the first activation of the MSG and all) with Force powers, if not with much more difficulty.

That said, like I espoused above, context within the game seems to lend to the notion that he didn't really grow much faster than normal between the 5 years separating games 1 and 2 IIRC.

Depends what you mean by KO, when recovering from Surik he never actually falls conscious.

Doesn't mean he's immune to knockout FYI

Just means nothing Surik could throw at him was potent enough to do so.

Not to say Bastila can, given she's beneath Surik, just listing victory conditions in general :maybe

Irregardless it still makes him practically immune to anything short of a lethal attack, which might catch Bastila off-guard.

From the way his body is stitched together, I'd imagine decapitation would still work, yeah

Well, assuming his mind shuts down faster than his TK stitches his body back together given that is how he holds himself together IIRC :hmm

A lot of people seem to think they both drained her, I don't know why seeing as:

Sion doesn't raise a finger.

I've honestly never interpreted anything in that scene as her having been drained

The absence of the orange stream of energy being the most prominent reason given previous cutscene usage by Nihilus later.

Sort of thought that occurred after she was knocked out

Why she couldn't call her saber to her?

Always kind of figured being TKed by the ****er that figured pulling an entire Star Destroyer sized ship out of Malachor's gravity well was a reasonable course of action to escape the place disoriented/concussed her on impact

The Force, primarily being based in mental power, sort of requires the user be able to think straight to properly use their shit and all :hmm

Not saying that's the correct/only way to view the scene, just felt that was the one that made the most sense based on extra material quotes and descriptions of the event in the game *shrugs*

The KOTOR Campaign Guide says "They turn on her and drain her Force powers" but all I took it to mean is that Sion was complicit it in the act.

Seems like kind of a weak hand wave imo, but I can see why you'd think it if you believe Nihilus hit her with Drain from the start :hmm

That said yes it is difficult to gauge, but its undoubtable it will have some effect, and I feel sway any disparity between their powers (if there is one) which can only be minimal.

That's fair

That could work.

It's either that or lop off his head anyway

His regen is legit enough where Sever really is her only viable power to kill him permanently.

Not like she has the knowledge Surik did to talk him to death.