Shaak Ti, Luminara Unduli & Ahsoka Tano vs. Meetra Surik & Aryn Leneer

Originally posted by SunRazer
Shaak isn't boasting any notable Force edge over the Exile if Traya on one of the galaxy's most potent dark side nexuses didn't.

Yes, although you forget that Meetra was very much, still bonded with Kreia. Thusly, the argument of whether she was hindered or not, is rather debatable. Likewise, the extent of which Kreia used her force powers to is also up for debate. Unless of course I'm missing a large piece of the puzzle, that states the battle included both blades and powers? Which is a probability.

Moreover, it raises the question of whether or not Meetra was amplified on Malachor due to her bond with Kreia.

And that was before the Exile hit her prime. Sure, Surik's Force powers are usually augmentative/passive/involuntary, as opposed to the more active displays of most Force practitioners including Shaak, but regardless, Shaak isn't boasting any meaningful Force edge,

While I concur with your point about the Exile's passive abilities. I disagree with rest. As I said above: the extent to which Kreia used her abilities in that battle is up for debate.

Meanwhile, we Have Shaak Ti using Force Kinetite to incapacitated Starkiller, someone with incredible endurance, and hitting him with Telekinetic blasts. That's pretty impressive, no?

Regardless, you misunderstand. Shaak has a means to keep Meetra at bay via Kinetite and TK blasts. This could wear Surik out.

Let's also not forget that Surik was taken down, rather easily, by a controlled burst of lightning on Nar Shaddaa. If Ti hits her with a more powerful attack, such as Kinetite, she may very well win.

and she's going down in a duel.

Debatable. If we compare their respective opponents, as duelists. Shaak Ti's faced far more talented warriors than Meetra. Holding her own against Grievous is more impressive than beating someone like Sion or Nihilus, both of whom have little, to no real skill with the blade. At best, Atris and Traya are the sole two who can compare to Starkiller in a duel. And this is being generous.

It's quite the fight, though.

👆

I'm not confident Aryn can beat Luminara and Ahsoka together, but I'm also unsure if the duo can necessarily beat her, since Luminara's style isn't particularly renowned for its defensive abilities. [/B]

Her Form is Soresu and it has been compared to Dooku's mastery of Makashi. But I understand your point.

I'm off to embrace sleep now.

It was "believed" by Jedi that Luminara could easily match the skills of the Count, but that's obviously false seeing as she couldn't even best Ventress. And many Jedi "believed" Anoon Bondara was the most skilled Jedi in the Order as well.

Why are you citing Surik's Nar Shaddaa iteration when it is hugely far from her prime?

Also, proof the Bond was still intact on Malachor V? If it was, Surik would've suffered intense pain in severing Traya's hand, but she didn't.

And Surik's feats are banked more on the extremely negative circumstances she had to endure as opposed to the skill of her opponents.

EDIT: Ah, typo on my part. I meant "offensive abilities" of Luminara, obviously, since she uses Form III.

If amped Darth Traya and amped Darth Nyriss' force attacks couldn't defeat the Exile's force defenses how is Shaak Ti?

@SunRazer, Luminara is also stated to be proficient in Form V, IIRC. Plus, the fact that Ahsoka and Luminara have dueled together means they'd be more familiar with each others forms and thus would likely produce an even more effective offense against Aryn than they did against Ventress.

Originally posted by AncientPower
If amped Darth Traya and amped Darth Nyriss' force attacks couldn't defeat the Exile's force defenses how is Shaak Ti?

You need to have another look at those fights it seems.

Nyriss chained a single bolt into her fighting against Surik, it wasn't a concentrated blast and it still took Meetra off her feet. She was wounded and Nyriss was amped, but that's not enough to suggest Meetra could tank a full assault from Nyriss without considerable effort.

As for Traya... Traya could not rag-doll Meetra due to her power levels, and her best attacks in duels come from her telekinesis. Take out the crush or choke, and all she can do is force push her or use lightning. Traya can use lightning but she has no feats in it, the mere fact she never uses it is probably proof her lightning isn't on the level of her TK.

If Surik was pushed back in the force by Traya using Telekinesis, that wouldn't have a huge effect on the fight other than wounding Surik. If however Shaak Ti did it, (which she can unless you're suggesting Surik > Starkiller) then she can press the offensive with a devastating and controlled attack. She's far more proficient with a blade than Traya so that opening means more to her. Not to mention she could follow up with an attack of Kinetite.

Simply suggesting that Traya > Shaak in the force therefore Shaak can't harm Surik is idiotic beyond belief. You need to look at fights in far more detail than power level.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It was "believed" by Jedi that Luminara could easily match the skills of the Count, but that's obviously false seeing as she couldn't even best Ventress. And many Jedi "believed" Anoon Bondara was the most skilled Jedi in the Order as well.

Yet he died to Maul and Luminara failed to defeat Ventress. Your point is acknowledged. However, in Luminara's case, Ventress had already accomplished several feats prior to their fights. Including stalemating Skywalker on Yavin until he drew on the Dark Side to best her. Too, you neglect the clear fact that Luminara was quite hindered by eye injury. Thus affecting her combative ability.

Why are you citing Surik's Nar Shaddaa iteration when it is hugely far from her prime?

The order in which Surik visit the planets is randomized, if that's what you're referring too, ergo, Nar Shaddaa could have been her last planet before leaving to dantooine.

If you're referring to her Revan Novel and Malachor incarnations, then allow me to retort with this:

There is no legitimate or "true" way of going to each planet. This is the player's choice. At best, Nova, the planets she visited first is arguable.

Secondly, Meetra has no other showings or quotes, citing her Force Barrier/ Endurance in combat, as of Malachor or Revan.

Also, proof the Bond was still intact on Malachor V? If it was, Surik would've suffered intense pain in severing Traya's hand, but she didn't.

I was referring to the DS ending on Dantooine. I had forgotten if it was LS or DS.

However, as stated by Kreia and several other masters, a bond can't truly be broken. One of them must either fall, or die.

And as we know, Kreia never fell, she simply hid in plain sight.

And Surik's feats are banked more on the extremely negative circumstances she had to endure as opposed to the skill of her opponents.

True, however, skill is a main factor in many battles. And while her survival of such disadvantageous battles is impressive, her opponents are not as skilled as Starkiller.

EDIT: Ah, typo on my part. I meant "offensive abilities" of Luminara, obviously, since she uses Form III.

Hakuna Matata.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
The order in which Surik visit the planets is randomized, if that's what you're referring too, ergo, Nar Shaddaa could have been her last planet before leaving to dantooine.

That's wrong tbh. Nar Shadaa was her first planet after Telos IV.

Originally posted by Selenial
That's wrong tbh. Nar Shadaa was her first planet after Telos IV.

Quote please.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Quote please.

The Prima Guide's order tbh

Originally posted by Selenial
The Prima Guide's order tbh

Scan?

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Scan?

Excuse it being upside down, can't bother taking the picture again

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Excuse it being upside down, can't bother taking the picture again

Much appreciated. I found out two new things. One, I stand corrected. Two my neck can bend in ways it wasn't meant to bend.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Yet he died to Maul and Luminara failed to defeat Ventress. Your point is acknowledged. However, in Luminara's case, Ventress had already accomplished several feats prior to their fights. Including stalemating Skywalker on Yavin until he drew on the Dark Side to best her. Too, you neglect the clear fact that Luminara was quite hindered by eye injury. Thus affecting her combative ability.

Yavin was a dark side nexus, though. Regardless, Luminara was still capable of recognizing Ventress's fighting style even when her eye was blinded, and she seemed to recover somewhat towards the end of their initial exchange. That, and she can see through the Force to some degree, IIRC.

There is no legitimate or "true" way of going to each planet. This is the player's choice. At best, Nova, the planets she visited first is arguable.

Nar Shaddaa could've also been the first one to be visited, and as you've been shown by other posters here, it's the first one in the Prima Guide's order, which is probably the closest thing we have to a canonical order.

Secondly, Meetra has no other showings or quotes, citing her Force Barrier/ Endurance in combat, as of Malachor or Revan.

I recommend you check my Meetra thread, because the Prima Guide does reference her Barrier.

However, as stated by Kreia and several other masters, a bond can't truly be broken. One of them must either fall, or die.

Nothing suggests the Bond remained until Kreia's death, because if it had been, Surik would not be able to wound her and sever her hand without consequences.

True, however, skill is a main factor in many battles. And while her survival of such disadvantageous battles is impressive, her opponents are not as skilled as Starkiller.

Skill is obviously a factor in Meetra's fights too, considering the extremity of the circumstances that are stacked against her.

Nova, their bond remained. I mean she literally says "our bond remains but that is all,"... The fact that she harmed Traya didn't matter since Traya says in the heat of battle they could suffer injuries and their minds would be prepared to the point they wouldn't effect each other.

However I still disagree with Fated's idea, Surik wouldn't be boosted by Kreia. Even if Kreia provided some sort of amp, the Exile was the only thing keeping the other party members alive on the planet tbh, it would have balanced out.

I'm talking about Malachor, not Dantooine.

Also, even if Traya could naturally shield the Exile from her pain, would she really do that in a scenario where she clearly states that she's willing to kill the Exile and that they're both meant to go out? Not to mention actually shielding the pain of having your hand cut off by a lightsaber isn't particularly easy, either.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm talking about Malachor, not Dantooine.

Also, even if Traya could naturally shield the Exile from her pain, would she really do that in a scenario where she clearly states that she's willing to kill the Exile and that they're both meant to go out? Not to mention actually shielding the pain of having your hand cut off by a lightsaber isn't particularly easy, either.

The Exile would be shielding herself, however.

Im not sure there's any proof that the bond changed at all though. We know if someone falls to an opposite alignment the bond breaks, but Traya had been Dark the whole game and still maintained a bond.

Though I think the above is proof enough that the bond wouldn't transmit Dark Force Energy to boost Surik.

I'm pretty sure Traya mentions them shielding each other, not themselves.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yavin was a dark side nexus, though. .

There are several instances where the authors who have had the pleasure of portraying a character battle on Yavin, would actually state that the character was drawing on a Nexus. Exar Kun using the force, the Jedi students empowering Dorsk 81 so he could blast a number of Star Destroyers out of the sky etcetera. I see nothing to suggest that Ventress was amped.

Even if that were the case, wouldn't Anakin also benefit from the amplification of Yavin's energies?

Regardless, Luminara was still capable of recognizing Ventress's fighting style even when her eye was blinded, and she seemed to recover somewhat towards the end of their initial exchange. That, and she can see through the Force to some degree, IIRC

Yes, she recognized the style because prior to injuring her eye, she and Ventress fought each other briefly.

Nar Shaddaa could've also been the first one to be visited, and as you've been shown by other posters here, it's the first one in the Prima Guide's order, which is probably the closest thing we have to a canonical order.

A fair point.

I recommend you check my Meetra thread, because the Prima Guide does reference her Barrier.

I have read your respect thread, and while I appreciate the work put into it. I'm all the more skeptical about her barrier and even more so about the powers you added.

It seems very clear to me that the statements about her barrier are in regards to the player's options[/i. For Example:

[i]Originally from ShootingNova's RT
For Consulars focused on defense, Energy Resistance and Battle Meditation are ideal. Like Force Valor and similar abilities, these powers make your party stronger and tougher, tilting the odds greatly in your favor.

The full quote of the Prima guide is Listing the Mechanics of the Light Side Powers. In fact the vast majority of those quotes regarding the Exile's force ability, are not direct quotes in regards to her powers, they are optional, not at all fact.

Not to mention that those quotes often refer to the Exile's class which, as you know no doubt know, is controlled by the player.

Even if I were to take all those quote seriously, there's still the fact that she hasn't been seen "tanking" or "shrugging off" powerful Telekinetic attacks or Force Powers. This is a fact.

And her "immunity" as a Force Wound doesn't necessarily protect her against force powers.

Argue what you like about Force Enlightenment, yes this is impressive, but without proper showings of Force Barrier, we're left with little more than speculation.

And, my good friend, unless you believe that Meetra's barrier and power is superior to that of the secret apprentice, Starkiller. I don't quite see any reason to continue debating the Barriers of those characters, when, at least in my humble opinion, there's a clear superior.

In short: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoAPSBMQEKU

Nothing suggests the Bond remained until Kreia's death, because if it had been, Surik would not be able to wound her and sever her hand without consequences.

Sel, sort of answered this for me.

Skill is obviously a factor in Meetra's fights too, considering the extremity of the circumstances that are stacked against her.

You misunderstand. her opponents, the most powerful among them, pale in lightsaber abilities when compared to Shaak's opponents.

You've got Atris, a woman with decent force abilities and a practitioner of Juyo.

You've got Visas, a highly untrained Jedi while under Nihlus.

You've got Sion, a man who is considered to be relatively unskilled by most, if not all debating boards.

Then Nihilus, who's best power is drain and TK, but what else is there in [ dueling ability? Which was what the fight between him and the Exile's forces was, a duel.

There's Traya, a woman with general knowledge of the seven forms and the force forms. A woman, who's knowledge of these forms depends on the player's preference for Guardian, Sentinel, Consular and their "advanced" classes.

Yes, the circumstances were stacked against her, but we don't quite know how she went about dealing with those circumstances. Correct me if i'm wrong.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
You've got Atris, a woman with decent force abilities and a practitioner of Juyo.

You've got Visas, a highly untrained Jedi while under Nihlus.

Atris mastered Juyo, and therefore had a high level mastery in numerous other forms.

Visas was the second most powerful Sith in Nihilus' empire, which includes numerous Dark Jedi Masters all stated to have mastered numerous forms of melee combat. Not to mention she beat Visas while unarmed during the brutal sparring session Traya forced them into.

Originally posted by Selenial
Atris mastered Juyo, and therefore had a high level mastery in numerous other forms.

Mastered? it's never explicitly stated that she "mastered" Juyo. She's stated to be an excellent practitioner of Lightsaber combat, but not a master of the form.

Visas was the second most powerful Sith in Nihilus' empire, which includes numerous Dark Jedi Masters all stated to have mastered numerous forms of melee combat.

Show me the quote stating that? Or is this just based around the assumption that "Visas was picked as his apprentice, therefore she's above everyone"?

I suppose it's a valid point, but i'm just curious if there's an actual quote.

Not to mention she beat Visas while unarmed during the brutal sparring session Traya forced them into.

I know, Sel. I also know that Visas isn't all that impressive in the grand scheme of things.