SSJGod Vegeta vs Vegetto · Anime 'Versus' Forum

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Also, SSJ3 Gotenks was ~ Super Buu. So obviously when Super Buu absorbed SSJ3 Gotenks, it would have 'only' doubled his power.

And since Buutenks was comfortably beyond Shin Gohan, we know that Gohan wasn't even 2x> Super Buu. That said, Buuhan could not have been more than 3-4x> Super Buu.

IOW, this is wrong:

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Buutenks was over thrice as strong as Super Buu, and Buuhan was over twice as strong as Buutenks, AT LEAST.

U need Leonard Unfireable Employee

Originally posted by Galan007
This is the excerpt you're referring to:
Translation:
It certainly doesn't suffice as admissible proof that Vegetto>SSJ4, as it is a speculatory statement, at best--"perhaps" x>y doesn't confirm a thing. There were a few other tidbits from that Special that were flat-out wrong as well. One example: it also stated that SSJ2 was never used again after the Cell saga, which we know is obviously incorrect.
Suffice to say: it is widely regarded as an inadmissible source due to all of its glaring inaccuracies.

Well then, there you have it. I actually believe that statement to the degree that Vegito is around that level. His power was never close to being tested so I had no idea where his limits were.

I'm not bothered by the inconsistencies, since the series itself has been wildly inconsistent. It finally sheds some light on something that is completely unknowable, without it.mOn top of that, I wasn't told that the source was inadmissible, everyone who brought it to me swears by it. The contents of the 1st volume are even used at Akira Toriyama's fan site.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by U need Leonard
I'm not bothered by the inconsistencies, since the series itself has been wildly inconsistent. It finally sheds some light on something that is completely unknowable, without it.mOn top of that, I wasn't told that the source was inadmissible, everyone who brought it to me swears by it. The contents of the 1st volume are even used at Akira Toriyama's fan site.

The notion that Vegetto>SSJ4 completely falls apart when we consider things like: Goku stating that Super Baby Vegeta 1 had the most powerful ki he'd EVER felt up to that point.... Along with logical power-scaling in GT(for starters, Goku begins the series with about 400x the power he had in Z. No joke.)

They probably DO swear by that one excerpt... Because they don't know about the rest of the inconsistencies in the book. Aside from that, the use of the word "perhaps" excludes the possibility of the statement being taken as irrefutable fact anyway, so clinging to it as gospel is kind of silly.

On a sidenote: people are always so quick to assume that Vegetto was several orders of magnitude beyond Buuhan, without realizing that one-sided shit-stomps can occur in DBZ without gargantuan power differences existing between the respective combatants.

Examples:
Vegeta vs. Kiwi
Vegeta vs. Dodoria
Goku vs. Recoome/Burter/Jeice
50% Freeza vs. SSJ Goku
Perfect Cell vs. ASSJ Vegeta
Perfect Cell vs. SSJ2 Gohan
Fat Buu vs. SSJ2 Gohan
Super Buu vs. Shin Gohan
Buutenks vs. Shin Gohan
Pure Buu vs. SSJ2 Vegeta
etc. etc.

In each of those examples, no more than a 2-3x difference in power exists, yet they were all laughably lopsided battles. Hell, even Whis is less than 2x> Beerus, yet can still KO him with one casual chop.

Point: technically speaking, Vegetto could have 'only' been twice as powerful as Buuhan, and still beaten him just as effortlessly. /shrug

U need Leonard Unfireable Employee

I did not get Vegetto>SSJ4 from that material. The fact that "perhaps" exists in that statement stops that conclusion, for me. However, given the fact that it was stated, at all, is an indication that he is 'around' that level. There's no reason for him not to be, SSJ2 multiplied by another SSJ2 will be a very extreme level of power. Even in GT, even if we use the most extreme-concocted multipliers out there.

Goku saying Bebi had the strongest Ki he had ever felt, given this info; I chalk that up to yet another inconsistency and considering GT isn't canon, I see no reason to take it as seriously as that. Especially since, besides Vegito; who is Goku himself, Bebi probably would be the strongest ki he's ever encountered.

I heard Goku was much stronger in GT than in Z, but why? I know he's stronger, but I've heard he's 1000X, 100X, 4000X, and now 400X. I can understand the Z calcs, but the GT calcs seem to come out of thin air. Where is everyone getting these numbers from?

I should also mention, just from a numbers stand point, Z Goku X any number in the thousands pales, in comparison to SSJ2 Z Goku X SSJ2 Z Vegeta. That ends up being a very big number. 400 million X 400, for example, is still less than a single million X a single million. Goku may be weaker in Z, but when you multiply that by Vegeta, that reaches a level that, mathematically, is hard to over come. Given this, I find it completely reasonable that a SSJ2 Vejito could still outclass most opponents well into DBGT. Freeza of all characters, his 2nd form multiplied by his 2nd form is 1 trillion. The fact that Vejito's fusion is confirmed to be multiplication added to the fact that he has never been challenged is what makes him an extreme case.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by U need Leonard
There's no reason for him not to be, SSJ2 multiplied by another SSJ2 will be a very extreme level of power. Even in GT, even if we use the most extreme-concocted multipliers out there.

The PL x PL concept from the guidebook is complete garbage. If Potara really did multiply power levels, then Kikito Kai would have been able to effortlessly shit-stomp Buu.

Even if Supreme Kaioshin and Kibito each had a power level of a scant 1 million(in all actuality, they were hundreds of times more powerful than that), Kibito Kai would've had a PL of 1 TRILLION. Sorry, but there's just no possible way that's accurate.

Originally posted by U need Leonard
Goku saying Bebi had the strongest Ki he had ever felt, given this info; I chalk that up to yet another inconsistency and considering GT isn't canon, I see no reason to take it as seriously as that. Especially since, besides Vegito; who is Goku himself, Bebi probably would be the strongest ki he's ever encountered.

While GT is non-canon to Z, Z is still canon to GT. So when Goku said that Super Baby Vegeta 1 was >> anyone he's ever sensed before, it factors in ALL power levels in the mythos up to that point(including those from Z.)

You need to have a firm grasp on this concept before we can move on. 🙂

Originally posted by U need Leonard
I heard Goku was much stronger in GT than in Z, but why? I know he's stronger, but I've heard he's 1000X, 100X, 4000X, and now 400X. I can understand the Z calcs, but the GT calcs seem to come out of thin air. Where is everyone getting these numbers from?

Because in Z, SSJ3 Goku was around Buu-level.

By the time of GT, Goku was able to match 1st form Rildo, who he confirmed was "even more powerful than Majin Buu", in his base state. This means base GT Goku~SSJ3 Z Goku... And given that SSJ3 is 400x> base, it means that GT Goku was at least 400x more powerful than Z Goku.

This didn't come out of thin air, this is irrefutable fact.

NewGuy01 perpetual

Yeah, Beerus should be able to comfortably take out Vegitto with less than a third of his power.

SSJG2 Vegeta isn't quite as strong as Beerus is, but should still stomp.

SSJGGogeta Senior Member

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Whis recounts a story where Beerus destroyed two stars. The destruction of stars leads to supernova. Whis also comments that it was dark and inconvenient, which sounds like a black hole. Since the whole story has a kind of jokey vibe to it it can be reasonably assumed that neither Whis or Beerus were particularly hurt by what must have transpired.
Then again Toriyama might have written it like Beerus just broke two light bulbs and that is why it got dark, ignoring what realistically would have occurred.

When did this Whiss say this?

AuraAngel Hegemon

Tada~

SSJGGogeta Senior Member

Originally posted by Galan007
Also, SSJ3 Gotenks was ~ Super Buu. So obviously when Super Buu absorbed SSJ3 Gotenks, it would have 'only' doubled his power.
And since Buutenks was comfortably beyond Shin Gohan, we know that Gohan wasn't even 2x> Super Buu. That said, Buuhan could not have been more than 3-4x> Super Buu.
IOW, this is wrong:

Buutenks wasn't just Gotenks absorbed, it was Piccolo as well. And while Piccolo was pretty much nothing next to SSJ3 Gotenks, he was still around SSJ1 level, for the rest of the characters.

Anyway, no, SSJ3 Gotenks was toying with Super Buu the entire fight. He even profusely stated, after witnessing the limits of Super Buu's regeneration, that he could kill Super Buu. Not to mention that he utterly dominated Super Buu, without getting a single scratch on him. He was just so stupid, that he lost his advantage, because he didn't think of his time limit on SSJ3, while fused.

Don't know why everyone likes to act like SSJ3 Gotenks and Super Buu were equals. He was shitting on him. He only lost because he unfused, because he wanted it to be more "spectacular", when they won.

So SSJ3 Gotenks is only about twice as strong as Super Buu. That would mean that Buutenks was around 3 times stronger than Super Buu, and that's not including the addition of Piccolo. Then, since Mystic Gohan was able to still fight on par with Buutenks, that means that he was ALSO at least 3 times stronger than Super Buu. Meaning that Buuhan wasn't THAT much stronger than Buutenks, but was stronger than him. So either way, the point is that Base Vegetto was stronger than Buuhan, who was stronger AT LEAST 6 times stronger than Super Buu. And going by power levels in the Daizenshuu, Super Buu was 8 times stronger than SSJ3 Goku, already. The Daizenshuu also confirms that Super Buu's power level was 1,200,000,000,000, and that Buutenks's power level was 2,400,000,000,000, which makes him twice as strong as Super Buu. Buuhan was a 2.7 trillion. Goku and Vegeta's base power levels multiplied together(375,000,000, and 300,000,000 respectively), is Vegetto's base power level, which is a STAGGERING 112,500,000,000,000,000, or 112.5 quadrillion.

Either way, the point here is that there is absolutely no way that SSJG can make up for that difference.

HOWEVER, SSJGSSJ was nearly as strong as Golden Frieza. The statement was a joke, but IF Frieza's power level was really 100 quintillion, then even SSJ3 Vegetto would fall short, as his power level would be 45,000,000,000,000,000,000, or 45 quintillion.

But, that statement was kinda BS, and was admittedly a joke.

So yes, Vegetto stomps here. Hell, given the scaling, Super Vegetto could probably take Whiss.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Lol, that post is all kinds of wrong. For starters...

Piccolo explicitly stated that SSJ3 Gotenks and Super Buu were equalish:

IF there was a difference between them one way or the other, it was marginal. At best. The notion that Gotenks was 2x more powerful than Super Buu is laughable. Furthermore, as has been pointed out: Super Buu was explicitly NOT trying to kill Gotenks, because he knew that his added power would be required to fight Gohan:

ie. he was explicitly NOT out for the kill, and wouldn't have risked using any potentially lethal attacks against Gotenks.

However, I'm not saying that Gotenks wasn't more powerful--he may have been. But ALL facts considered(your baseless opinions aren't facts, btw), they were around the same level.

So again: when Super Buu absorbed Gotenks, and doubled his power, he was able to own Mystic Gohan easily... Which means that Gohan wasn't more than 2x> Super Buu.

The rest of your post is so ridiculous that it doesn't even warrant a response. 👆

U need Leonard Unfireable Employee

From what I read, all sources say it's "more like multiplication", not that it is multiplication. However, almost all sources point out that Vejito is special, Goku X Vegeta = Vejito. I don't know why Vejito is different but there is literally no reason to deny Word of God Testimony when Vejito was shown to be well above anything in Z. I'm not going to start picking and chosing info from guide books unless the info is retconed by newer material. That's slippery slope territory.

Since GT is not canon, anything stated within it that appears to be inconsistent is grounds to be thrown out as hearsay. You are to take the Canon source over the nocanon. You can't bemoan source books for inconsistencies for inconsistencies that suit what want to believe over what actually exists. That's very dishonest and illustrates that you may not even believe what you say. Also, from what I gathered from the reading, Vejito is around SSJ4, not that he was over; considering the battle Goku had with Bebi, Bebi could be stronger than Vejito. This doesn't take away from what is clearly implied by the statements concerning Vejito's power.

We are all DBZ fans here, we are supposed to Discuss things openly and Honestly, not engage angry debates to prove dishonest points of view, please remember this. So with that said, thank you for shining light on that particular GT calc. That makes sense. Goku being 400X stronger is much more sensible than everything else I was reading.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by U need Leonard
From what I read, all sources say it's "more like multiplication", not that it is multiplication. However, almost all sources point out that Vejito is special, Goku X Vegeta = Vejito. I don't know why Vejito is different but there is literally no reason to deny Word of God Testimony when Vejito was shown to be well above anything in Z. I'm not going to start picking and chosing info from guide books unless the info is retconed by newer material. That's slippery slope territory.

I'm not picking any choosing either. I'm telling you that it's absurd to assume that Vegetto's power level was Goku's x Vegeta's.

Why? Because if they each had a base PL of 100m(which is logical based on what we know), then base Vegetto's PL would have been around 10 QUADRILLION(10,000,000,000,000,000)... Which means SSJ Vegetto's PL would be 50x that(5.e+17.)

If you cannot see the stupidity in clinging to that, then you're just being pig-headed, imo. It's ridiculous. srsly

Originally posted by U need Leonard
Since GT is not canon, anything stated within it that appears to be inconsistent is grounds to be thrown out as hearsay. You are to take the Canon source over the nocanon. You can't bemoan source books for inconsistencies for inconsistencies that suit what want to believe over what actually exists. That's very dishonest and illustrates that you may not even believe what you say. Also, from what I gathered from the reading, Vejito is around SSJ4, not that he was over; considering the battle Goku had with Bebi, Bebi could be stronger than Vejito. This doesn't take away from what is clearly implied by the statements concerning Vejito's power.

Again: Z IS STILL CANON TO GT. So when Goku stated that SBV1>>ALL before him, it obviously factors in those he'd sensed in the Z-era as well... Which means SBV1>Vegetto... Which means Vegetto cannot possibly be on par with SSJ4 Goku, because SSJ4 Goku was many times more powerful than SBV1. GT Guidebooks don't override established facts from the show itself. 🙂

Prof. T.C McAbe Kryptonian Scientist

Vegetto wins imo.

U need Leonard Unfireable Employee

@Galan007

I do believe Vejito is that strong, you personally might not like the math, but Goku X Vegeta is stated in more than 1 official source. It sounds wild, but it is what it is. It's wrong to deny it just because it sounds silly, especially since we have no idea how strong he really is. This is probably why the series stopped using power levels.

I know z is canon to GT, trust me, I know. The issue you are unaware of is GT is not canon to Z, as we see in DBS. Because the Canon is not a 2 way occurrence, Z has the power to retcon GT, thus making it less relavent with each new event, like BoG and RoF, DBZ movies invented without GT in mind, at all.

Knowing this, if a statement made in a source book related to a Z character contradicts a statement made in a non canon show about a non canon addition to the cast, I am going to side with the statement involving the 100% canon character. Not that this is even the case since Bebi is also around SSJ4 level.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by U need Leonard
I do believe Vejito is that strong

facepalm

Originally posted by U need Leonard
The issue you are unaware of is GT is not canon to Z

I am? Is that why I said this a few posts ago?:

Originally posted by Galan007
While GT is non-canon to Z, Z is still canon to GT.

Keep inserting your foot in your mouth, though. Lol. 👆

Originally posted by U need Leonard
Knowing this, if a statement made in a source book related to a Z character contradicts a statement made in a non canon show about a non canon addition to the cast, I am going to side with the statement involving the 100% canon character. Not that this is even the case since Bebi is also around SSJ4 level.

Lol. That excerpt about Vegetto is from a GT Sourcebook, bud... And as I mentioned before: it is riddled with glaring inconsistencies(this is one of them.) That, again, is why it is FAR from an irrefutable source.

Anywho, where GT is concerned SBV1>ALL before him--Goku, who can very accurately sense ki, explicitly confirmed this:

And since SSJ4 Goku was VASTLY more powerful than SBV1, there's no possible way that Vegetto could have been on par with SSJ4 Goku. It goes like this:
SSJ4 Goku ~ Golden Oozaru Baby [10x]> Super Baby Vegeta 2 >> Super Baby Vegeta 1 > ALL before him in both Z and GT. Why? BECAUSE Z IS CANON TO GT!

It doesn't matter if you don't like or agree with this. Sourcebooks(especially this Sourcebook) DO NOT override what was stated in the original source material itself. This is a very, very basic concept to grasp.

Stop being purposefully obtuse. 👆

U need Leonard Unfireable Employee

You cannot say you are aware of the facts and then make cases that ignore them; you can't have it both ways. Again, this is dishonest and it's not necessary.

I know the info is from a GT source book. I am also aware it is saying a 100% canon character from the actual canon series is around a new, non-canon power range, invented in its own series. This is the section I’m really going to need you to focus on.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
And since SSJ4 Goku was VASTLY more powerful than SBV1, there's no possible way that Vegetto could have been on par with SSJ4 Goku. It goes like this:
SSJ4 Goku ~ Golden Oozaru Baby [10x]> Super Baby Vegeta 2 >> Super Baby Vegeta 1 > ALL before him in both Z and GT. Why? BECAUSE Z IS CANON TO GT!

It doesn't matter if you don't like or agree with this. Sourcebooks(especially this Sourcebook) DO NOT override what was stated in the original source material itself. This is a very, very basic concept to grasp.

Stop being purposefully obtuse.

I’m afraid to inform you that none of that supersedes the fact that Goku x Vegeta = Vejito. It’s as simple as that. We can’t really go any farther than this if we don’t even agree on the validity of the source books. You have very a very poor understanding of logical concepts and it’s odd because you continue to tell me it’s me and not you. I tried to ignore this but it’s becoming an issue between us. But this is not a bad thing, since we are only discussing cartoons.
Prime example being......

Source Book
or sourcebook
Word Origin
noun
1.
an original writing, as a document, record, or diary, that supplies an authoritative basis for future writing, study, evaluation, etc.
The literal point of a sourcebook is to clear up and set straight the original material. The source book, by its very definition supersedes the original material. We can't go farther if this is not a known by both parties.

Time-Immemorial Restricted

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Buutenks wasn't just Gotenks absorbed, it was Piccolo as well. And while Piccolo was pretty much nothing next to SSJ3 Gotenks, he was still around SSJ1 level, for the rest of the characters.
Anyway, no, SSJ3 Gotenks was toying with Super Buu the entire fight. He even profusely stated, after witnessing the limits of Super Buu's regeneration, that he could kill Super Buu. Not to mention that he utterly dominated Super Buu, without getting a single scratch on him. He was just so stupid, that he lost his advantage, because he didn't think of his time limit on SSJ3, while fused.
Don't know why everyone likes to act like SSJ3 Gotenks and Super Buu were equals. He was shitting on him. He only lost because he unfused, because he wanted it to be more "spectacular", when they won.
So SSJ3 Gotenks is only about twice as strong as Super Buu. That would mean that Buutenks was around 3 times stronger than Super Buu, and that's not including the addition of Piccolo. Then, since Mystic Gohan was able to still fight on par with Buutenks, that means that he was ALSO at least 3 times stronger than Super Buu. Meaning that Buuhan wasn't THAT much stronger than Buutenks, but was stronger than him. So either way, the point is that Base Vegetto was stronger than Buuhan, who was stronger AT LEAST 6 times stronger than Super Buu. And going by power levels in the Daizenshuu, Super Buu was 8 times stronger than SSJ3 Goku, already. The Daizenshuu also confirms that Super Buu's power level was 1,200,000,000,000, and that Buutenks's power level was 2,400,000,000,000, which makes him twice as strong as Super Buu. Buuhan was a 2.7 trillion. Goku and Vegeta's base power levels multiplied together(375,000,000, and 300,000,000 respectively), is Vegetto's base power level, which is a STAGGERING 112,500,000,000,000,000, or 112.5 quadrillion.
Either way, the point here is that there is absolutely no way that SSJG can make up for that difference.
HOWEVER, SSJGSSJ was nearly as strong as Golden Frieza. The statement was a joke, but IF Frieza's power level was really 100 quintillion, then even SSJ3 Vegetto would fall short, as his power level would be 45,000,000,000,000,000,000, or 45 quintillion.
But, that statement was kinda BS, and was admittedly a joke.
So yes, Vegetto stomps here. Hell, given the scaling, Super Vegetto could probably take Whiss.

What are you even talking about No way in hell does Vegetto take SSGSS Vegeta. Are you out of your mind?

U need Leonard Unfireable Employee

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Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

You're STILL ignoring this:

Goku outright confirms that SBV1>ALL before him(this obviously includes Vegetto.) A GT Sourcebook does NOT override the original GT source material anymore then the Daizenshuu overrides the original DBZ manga.

You must be trolling at this point, because no one can be this ignorant. It's actually quite ridiculous.

U need Leonard Unfireable Employee

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