Originally posted by quanchi112
Khanwins based off the evidence. Let's go point for point based off facts and so who comes out on top. Ready ?
Ready!
Let's see, Darth Maul is capable of avoiding blaster fire, which means that in order for this to be physically possible, he needs to react before the enemy has even pointed the gun and pulled the trigger, since there's no physical way for Maul to avoid a particle or laser blast at such close ranges.
This falls right in with what we're told about Jedi and Sith Lords in regards to their ability to 'sense' what's happening around him. The way to kill a Sith Lord or a Jedi is actually sheer volume of fire. The reason being that as powerful as they are, economics of motion means that there is simply things they cannot do, even if their reactions top pit vipers.
This is where we reach the problem with Khan and how he's typically armed. Khan is armed with at best, a semi-automatic phaser or a heavy energy cannon. As we've seen throughout the Clone Wars, force users are able to avoid these weapons, even from multiple well-trained clone troops. We can't say exactly if a pulse phaser will be deflected by a lightsaber, but according to sources from SW's EU, our best guess is that it could.
Khan's massive cannon is more unlikely though, given its sheer power.
Having established that, Darth Maul is going to be able to 'sense' where Khan is and when he's in danger. And he'll do so as long well in advance to Khan actually getting his beat and pulling the trigger. So that by the time that Khan does fire, Maul would have just vacated the area.
Now, Maul in actuality has to be very skilled in regards to swordsmanship. First, he not only uses an absurdly terrible weapon (two blades on either side...really?), but he was also able to fight a jedi knight and his padawan to a standstill for a while. Thankfully, Maul later switched over to a more proper lightsaber (although his brother still uses the two-bladed one...*sigh*).
Which is good when we see him fight Pre Vizsla in combat. It's fairly obvious that the two are fairly close as far as swordsmanship in the episode (that being, that's how they were portrayed), but Maul basically did that fight with one hand behind his back, so to speak. If he'd wanted to, he could have yanked Pre into a wall or even on his blade. Of course, given that he was in an honor duel, that might have been seen as unsporting.
Regardless, we saw that in the fight against Pre, that Maul was able to avoid numerous grenades, a flamethrower, and even blasters fired from point-blank range. And yet Maul either evaded our countered all of them. And it was pretty smart of Pre to try to use explosives too; they're harder to avoid, even if you can jump out of the way, since the blast is omnidirectional.
So we know that peak humans (err.."Mandalorians"😉 can match a jedi or a sith in combat. But that being said...Maul wasn't particularly strong. Not in the same sense as Vader, Palpatine, Dooku, or Yoda. He's probably what you'd call an above-average force user, since he's obviously a match for a jedi knight and then some.
So the question is...can Khan take Marth on?
The answer is...no. In a sword fight, is it possible that an ST augment could win? Yes, it is. The problem is, that to my knowledge, Khan isn't really trained in swordplay. I think the most he ever really had skill in was one of those Indian curved daggers. And it seemed more like something he did for self-defense, not something that he seriously trained in. But we also know that augments, even despite their physical capabilities, are still able to get outdone by peak humans, if rarely. Although, one might attribute this to Kirk's greater fighting prowess.
Which brings me to the problem with Khan vs Maul. Maul has experience--far more experience than Khan has at fighting opponents with weapons of all sorts, but most especially swordplay. So we can probably rule out that Khan is going to defeat Maul in sword combat, assuming he even had a lightsaber. The other issue is that any gun that Khan has access to is simply not up to the task of killing a sith or jedi.
Even if Khan can deliver a burst shot at Maul, that's actually even worse. Because remember, Maul responds before you shoot him, so what you want to do is to force him to try and cover as much as his body as possible. So Khan's well-grouped shot to Maul's chest isn't going to kill Maul, its actually going to make it a bit easier for Maul to adjust his sword to intercept the incoming pulses.
Oh and being an energy weapon means that grouping is probably going to be a bit easier, given there's no appreciable recoil.
So what's possible is that Khan could get himself maimed or killed by trying to fire at Maul. To make matter worse, even if Khan magically knew how to fire at a Sith Lord and he was able to do so, Maul can still use the force to yank the weapon away or throw him around.
In short, there may be a situation where Khan can overcome Maul, but this would have to be heavily slated in Khan's favor and even then, it'd be a difficult fight. Maul is a ruthless assassin. It's going to be hard to get him to lose focus and mess up like a younger Anakin might.
Originally posted by One_True_Mith"Shall we begin."
Ready!Let's see, Darth Maul is capable of avoiding blaster fire, which means that in order for this to be physically possible, he needs to react before the enemy has even pointed the gun and pulled the trigger, since there's no physical way for Maul to avoid a particle or laser blast at such close ranges.
This falls right in with what we're told about Jedi and Sith Lords in regards to their ability to 'sense' what's happening around him. The way to kill a Sith Lord or a Jedi is actually sheer volume of fire. The reason being that as powerful as they are, economics of motion means that there is simply things they cannot do, even if their reactions top pit vipers.
This is where we reach the problem with Khan and how he's typically armed. Khan is armed with at best, a semi-automatic phaser or a heavy energy cannon. As we've seen throughout the Clone Wars, force users are able to avoid these weapons, even from multiple well-trained clone troops. We can't say exactly if a pulse phaser will be deflected by a lightsaber, but according to sources from SW's EU, our best guess is that it could.
Khan's massive cannon is more unlikely though, given its sheer power.
Having established that, Darth Maul is going to be able to 'sense' where Khan is and when he's in danger. And he'll do so as long well in advance to Khan actually getting his beat and pulling the trigger. So that by the time that Khan does fire, Maul would have just vacated the area.
Now, Maul in actuality has to be very skilled in regards to swordsmanship. First, he not only uses an absurdly terrible weapon (two blades on either side...really?), but he was also able to fight a jedi knight and his padawan to a standstill for a while. Thankfully, Maul later switched over to a more proper lightsaber (although his brother still uses the two-bladed one...*sigh*).
Which is good when we see him fight Pre Vizsla in combat. It's fairly obvious that the two are fairly close as far as swordsmanship in the episode (that being, that's how they were portrayed), but Maul basically did that fight with one hand behind his back, so to speak. If he'd wanted to, he could have yanked Pre into a wall or even on his blade. Of course, given that he was in an honor duel, that might have been seen as unsporting.
Regardless, we saw that in the fight against Pre, that Maul was able to avoid numerous grenades, a flamethrower, and even blasters fired from point-blank range. And yet Maul either evaded our countered all of them. And it was pretty smart of Pre to try to use explosives too; they're harder to avoid, even if you can jump out of the way, since the blast is omnidirectional.
So we know that peak humans (err.."Mandalorians"😉 can match a jedi or a sith in combat. But that being said...Maul wasn't particularly strong. Not in the same sense as Vader, Palpatine, Dooku, or Yoda. He's probably what you'd call an above-average force user, since he's obviously a match for a jedi knight and then some.
So the question is...can Khan take Marth on?
The answer is...no. In a sword fight, is it possible that an ST augment could win? Yes, it is. The problem is, that to my knowledge, Khan isn't really trained in swordplay. I think the most he ever really had skill in was one of those Indian curved daggers. And it seemed more like something he did for self-defense, not something that he seriously trained in. But we also know that augments, even despite their physical capabilities, are still able to get outdone by peak humans, if rarely. Although, one might attribute this to Kirk's greater fighting prowess.
Which brings me to the problem with Khan vs Maul. Maul has experience--far more experience than Khan has at fighting opponents with weapons of all sorts, but most especially swordplay. So we can probably rule out that Khan is going to defeat Maul in sword combat, assuming he even had a lightsaber. The other issue is that any gun that Khan has access to is simply not up to the task of killing a sith or jedi.
Even if Khan can deliver a burst shot at Maul, that's actually even worse. Because remember, Maul responds before you shoot him, so what you want to do is to force him to try and cover as much as his body as possible. So Khan's well-grouped shot to Maul's chest isn't going to kill Maul, its actually going to make it a bit easier for Maul to adjust his sword to intercept the incoming pulses.
Oh and being an energy weapon means that grouping is probably going to be a bit easier, given there's no appreciable recoil.
So what's possible is that Khan could get himself maimed or killed by trying to fire at Maul. To make matter worse, even if Khan magically knew how to fire at a Sith Lord and he was able to do so, Maul can still use the force to yank the weapon away or throw him around.
In short, there may be a situation where Khan can overcome Maul, but this would have to be heavily slated in Khan's favor and even then, it'd be a difficult fight. Maul is a ruthless assassin. It's going to be hard to get him to lose focus and mess up like a younger Anakin might.
44 seconds in we see Maul lose a leg. He wasn't taking on highly skilled opponents just ignorant, selfish pirates ruled by Hondo. He fled because he knew he was outmatched. Opress had to carry him away while they worked together to flee.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tJK-MSzeVhs
1:02 in we see Vizsla hit him in the face and that he's a threat in close quarters combat.
1:30 we see them both kick each other simultaneously. Vizsla is a true threat to Maul.
1:40 we see the mini buzzsaws released by Vizsla graze Maul's cheeks.
2:23 we see the distractions pays off because a few seconds later Vizsla disarms Maul after he forces him to cut off the wires that bind his legs.
Shortly after we see Maul break him because he's weak. He doesn't possess the resilience, the strength, or the hand to hand skill Khan has. Vizsla really made him work for it. There was no one sided domination throughout the entire fight.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zEu_U78XFg4
it all comes down to the skills of any Jedi, Sith, bounty hunter, or Human augment. You lost me with this. We see weak opponents such bad as droids have their blaster fire easily repelled right back at them with ease. Now I can post proof as to why skilled opponents such as Jango Fett or Cad Bane don't go down like some of the lesser skilled foes. Skill and firepower always matter.
Do not forget Pre Vizsla was able to go toe to toe with and disarm Darth Maul before being beaten by him. Why you ask; skill.
Khan's energy cannon is wider and more powerful than anything a Jedi or Sith has repelled on screen. That's something you can't ignore or push under the rug even though we both know you want to. Most of the clones while skilled aren't up to Jango, Vizsla, or Bane's caliber. Eu isn't canon so irrelevant.
If that were the case that he'd be gone before hit why was Maul disarmed and grazed by the mini buzzsaws ? The answer is it depends on his skill/reflexes. We see Maul and his wounded brother run from no one even relatively super skilled from Hondo and his boys of ragtag, illiterate pirates buddies. Maul wasn't injured up to this point but he lost a robotic leg by being hit from lackluster pirates trying to flee.
Numbers were against both he and his injured brother and they didn't even think to stay and fight. They knew they weren't going to win and intelligently chose to flee.
Enter Khan
Khan takes on Klingons and subjugates Spock, Uhura, and Kirk.
55 seconds in Khan begins his assault
1:17 in: Khan's plasma mini cannon shows its impressive firepower capable of taking out the Klingon ship with one blast.
1:26--1:37: Kirk takes on a Klingon in hand to hand combat while we see Spock taking one with an accurate blast from his weapon.
1:39--1:41: Khan use his plasma cannon gun to take out an incoming threat and having the superhuman awareness to then switch to long ranged threats with his other weapon.
1:47--1:48: We see Khan taking two Klingons out simultaneously.
1:51: Here we see Kirk and his skill shoot down a Klingon.
2:02--2:06: The Klingon reinforcements arrive onto the scene.
2:12--2:15: Kirk's strength give him the breakaway he needs to take out the Klingon before being overwhelmed by the next two.
2:18--2:21: The damage the plasma cannon does to a humanoid body with body armor.
2:25--2:27: Spock, Uhura, and Kirk regroup after Khan destroys the Klingons seek refuge. They are in awe of Khan's fighting skill and abilities.
2:28--2:29: Khan's plasma cannon destroying another ship.
2:40--2:48: Khan eradicating more Klingons.
2:51--2:54: Khan's amazing athleticism. Look at the superhuman distance he jumps with heavy clothing on as well using amazing accuracy while wielding his plasma rifle weapon.
2:55--3:01: Khan's incredible skill and hand to hand combat by decimating the Klingons in hand to hand combat.
3:07--3:08: Khan easily shoots Spock's gun away before he can react.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K0cFLb-JmaQ
Khan easily not only took down the Klingons and their two patrol ships that were allied against him but he had Soock, Uhura, and Kirk at his mercy afterwards. These were also military trained opponents unlike the moronic, disloyal pirates.
Continued.....
I begin at your rundown of Pre Vizsla vs. Darth Maul. I am glad you just undermined your earlier point of Maul always anticipating his opponents strikes and write them off as skill equals. Speculative nonsense. We see other Jedi in battle not use their force for auto wins like you describe. Windu didn't easily just force decimate Jango Fett. Windu was at the top of the skilled Jedi from the films as well. We also don't see Kenobi defeat Jango. Kenobi was disarmed and fought to a stalemate before Fett fled with his little Boba.
Maul didn't avoid them all. We also see no real huge advantage in sword play from one of the best Sith ever seen against a greatly skilled bounty hunter. Maul was better but this was a fight. Maul was disarmed and his legs were tied as well during the fight. Don't get it twisted like Pre was completely unsuccessful. Pre couldn't take his punches and up close beat down. Pre doesn't possess the super resilience Khan has due to his super blood. Kenobi was disarmed by the missile fired aka the explosion Jango employed against him in their battle. Jedi and Sith get disarmed all the time.
Maul is very strong and has stood toe to toe with Sheev and Windu himself. He's also physically far greater than Dooku and Sheev who rely more on their force powers than they do their own physical prowess. Khan physically is extremely superhuman that even Vulcans who are physically superior to humans in Spock watched in sheer awe of Khan's skill.
We see the manner in which Khan used the knives was definitely highly skilled. Everything we see from Khan in that scene was utterly trashing those who opposed him with relative ease. Kirk couldn't even hurt Khan. He let him wail on him and Kirk's arm weakened before Khan. That's called superiority.
Khan doesn't have a sword here nor would he need one. He already his has phaser cannon and his phaser rifle which gives him the advantage over someone with a lightsaber. Maul was able too be disarmed by one opponent in Vizsla. So your whole he needs to be overwhelmed is proven wrong right there. Cad Bane has also gotten the better of Kenobi in close quarters combat proving that theory wrong yet again.
You don't have any proof Maul can deflect the wider, more powerful phaser cannon Khan uses. He ain't fast enough to avoid the fire he needs to block it before it hits him. You yourself admitted that so that's a wrap.
What do you mean magically fire at a Sith Lord ? A shitty Hondo pirate took out Maul's leg while he didn't even think to engage. You point, aim and fire. This ain't rocket science. Maul didn't force yank Vizsla's saber away. Plus Khan's weapon is attached to a strap around his shoulder as well as another weapon.
Khan is far more ruthless than Maul. Maul gave the black sun a few chances to join before having his brother end them. He also allowed Jabba to join him after he initially tried killing him. Khan annihilated the Klingons while you have Maul with an injured but still powerful brother running and not even trying to engage the numerical advantage.
Khan simply eradicates Maul or any other Jedi or Sith that comes his way.
Originally posted by quanchi112
44 seconds in we see Maul lose a leg. He wasn't taking on highly skilled opponents just ignorant, selfish pirates ruled by Hondo. He fled because he knew he was outmatched. Opress had to carry him away while they worked together to flee.Yes...because about half a dozen guys were firing at them. Once again, you prove that economics of motion limit what someone can do.
1:02 in we see Vizsla hit him in the face and that he's a threat in close quarters combat....Do you know how swords work? Like...at all?
[quote]1:30 we see them both kick each other simultaneously. Vizsla is a true threat to Maul.
Okay...he managed to land a kick on Maul. What's your point?
1:40 we see the mini buzzsaws released by Vizsla graze Maul's cheeks.
Yes, something a normal person would have been hard-pressed to avoid.
2:23 we see the distractions pays off because a few seconds later Vizsla disarms Maul after he forces him to cut off the wires that bind his legs.
Distraction? Seriously, do you know how swords work? Footwork is ****ing key. Not being able to move your legs isn't a "distraction", it's "you will die if you don't get your legs free". And he only managed to get that around Maul's legs because he threw shrapnel up into Maul's eyes.
That isn't ****ing easy to do. You have to be incredibly skilled with a weapon to use a blade to fling shrapnel into someone's eyes, then follow it up with binding their legs, then pulling a gun and blasting a rifle out of their hands even as they cut it. And even then--even when he had Maul disarmed, he still didn't win!
Shortly after we see Maul break him because he's weak. He doesn't possess the resilience, the strength, or the hand to hand skill Khan has.
You are so full of shit. Canonically, Khan lost his fist-fight to Captain James T. Kirk--a middle-aged man. Which suggests that given the speed and strength that a augment posses, Khan isn't really that skilled in hand to hand fighting. Because that's the only way Kirk could have won.
And that fight lasted about four minutes, with lots of moving around. Pre actually has to be pretty damn well in shape to keep that up. Especially at his age.
Vizsla really made him work for it. There was no one sided domination throughout the entire fight.
Actually, it's obvious that Maul had the advantage throughout the fight.
Khan's energy cannon is wider and more powerful than anything a Jedi or Sith has repelled on screen.
It's also incredibly heavy and slow to move, making it difficult to aim.
Eu isn't canon so irrelevant.
Lords of the Sith is fully canon. You should familiarize yourself with Disney's canon policy.
If that were the case that he'd be gone before hit why was Maul disarmed and grazed by the mini buzzsaws ? The answer is it depends on his skill/reflexes. We see Maul and his wounded brother run from no one even relatively super skilled from Hondo and his boys of ragtag, illiterate pirates buddies. Maul wasn't injured up to this point but he lost a robotic leg by being hit from lackluster pirates trying to flee.
Again, this is because you obviously don't understand basic combat situations. Being in an elevated (and in reality, covered position), is a great deal difference than running on open ground with over half a dozen people firing at you. Simple economics of motion says that one of those shots would have gotten through.
Numbers were against both he and his injured brother and they didn't even think to stay and fight. They knew they weren't going to win and intelligently chose to flee.
They also had no cover and Kenobi was right behind them.
3:07--3:08: Khan easily shoots Spock's gun away before he can react.
So the **** what? That portrayal is simply improbable. Shall we list them?
1) Khan staying out in the open.
2) Khan not using explosives.
3) Khan not knowing how to prioritize targets.
4) Khan leaping into the air, where he'll be utterly powerless.
5) Khan openly walking out in the open, rather than staying in cover and offering his surrender.
Khan easily not only took down the Klingons and their two patrol ships that were allied against him but he had Soock, Uhura, and Kirk at his mercy afterwards. These were also military trained opponents unlike the moronic, disloyal pirates.
Psh, only if you don't count what we literally see. They did a shit job. And the Klingons did an even worse job, were that possible. At least the pirates had the brain power to unload their clips at the jedi in volume of fire--all the klingons did was basically march to their deaths.
In fact, if this scene is to be believed, the Klingons actually spent more effort trying to kill Kirk and crew than they did actually targeting Khan. We see only a handful of shots going Khan's way for most of the fight. So pretending that Khan took on like 20-30 klingons single-handily is pathetic.
And your part two is utterly pointless to address.
Originally posted by One_True_MithDo explain then, sword master.
...Do you know how swords work? Like...at all?Okay...he managed to land a kick on Maul. What's your point?
Yes, something a normal person would have been hard-pressed to avoid.
Distraction? Seriously, do you know how swords work? Footwork is ****ing key. Not being able to move your legs isn't a "distraction", it's "you will die if you don't get your legs free". And he only managed to get that around Maul's legs because he threw shrapnel up into Maul's eyes.
That isn't ****ing easy to do. You have to be incredibly skilled with a weapon to use a blade to fling shrapnel into someone's eyes, then follow it up with binding their legs, then pulling a gun and blasting a rifle out of their hands even as they cut it. And even then--even when he had Maul disarmed, he still didn't win!
You are so full of shit. Canonically, Khan lost his fist-fight to Captain James T. Kirk--a middle-aged man. Which suggests that given the speed and strength that a augment posses, Khan isn't really that skilled in hand to hand fighting. Because that's the only way Kirk could have won.
And that fight lasted about four minutes, with lots of moving around. Pre actually has to be pretty damn well in shape to keep that up. Especially at his age.
Actually, it's obvious that Maul had the advantage throughout the fight.
It's also incredibly heavy and slow to move, making it difficult to aim.
Lords of the Sith is fully canon. You should familiarize yourself with Disney's canon policy.
Again, this is because you obviously don't understand basic combat situations. Being in an elevated (and in reality, covered position), is a great deal difference than running on open ground with over half a dozen people firing at you. Simple economics of motion says that one of those shots would have gotten through.
They also had no cover and Kenobi was right behind them.
So the **** what? That portrayal is simply improbable. Shall we list them?
1) Khan staying out in the open.
2) Khan not using explosives.
3) Khan not knowing how to prioritize targets.
4) Khan leaping into the air, where he'll be utterly powerless.
5) Khan openly walking out in the open, rather than staying in cover and offering his surrender.Psh, only if you don't count what we literally see. They did a shit job. And the Klingons did an even worse job, were that possible. At least the pirates had the brain power to unload their clips at the jedi in volume of fire--all the klingons did was basically march to their deaths.
In fact, if this scene is to be believed, the Klingons actually spent more effort trying to kill Kirk and crew than they did actually targeting Khan. We see only a handful of shots going Khan's way for most of the fight. So pretending that Khan took on like 20-30 klingons single-handily is pathetic.
And your part two is utterly pointless to address.
Khan had trained soldiers firing at him not disloyal, illiterate yahoos. There weren't three or four simultaneous blasts so despite your claims he was just caught.
That despite your he can see what's coming first he just gets kicked like anyone else. It all comes down to skill and reflexes.
None of these guys are normal. Khan is superhuman as **** too. No excuses.
The distraction was the shrapnel followed by the leg tying concluding in disarming him. Again Pre was incredibly skilled which is the point as is Khan. He didn't win because he's weak without his weapons in hand to hand combat. But he made it interesting and Maul is pretty formidable.
That isn't canon to Into Darkness Khan. Alternate reality version so that never occurred to this Khan. A younger Kirk couldn't even hurt him. This Khan won and he didn't even have to land a blow. Later Khan crushes him in hand to hand. Have you even seen the film ? Your ignorance is making me lose interest in you.
That isn't canon to Alternate reality Khan.
It is obvious Maul won but one sided domination didn't occur.
He also has a phaser rifle. He can use both weapons on one target and the distance between these two make Maul have to close the distance.
Yes, that is but that isn't eu. It also doesn't occur in real time and flowery language doesn't replace his real time feats we can see.
Khan went down off his elevated position and easily took out more Klingons. Shots did get through. No shots hit Khan. Not a single one. That says something. You say Khan is an idiot but then say he knows enough to get in an elevated position. Khab also had over a dozen people firing and two ships to contend with. Kudos to khan.
Kenobi wasn't there yet so don't pull that. The difference is Maul isn't Khan nor does he possess his weaponry which is more ideal against the Pirates there.
1) it occurred. Deal with the facts.
2) he didn't need to, dummy. Don't argue with results, nerd.
3) he crushed them so he prioritized just fine. Again he was successful.
4) he leapt to close the gap after he gunned the one down.
5) he didn't need to. Don't argue with results. He prevailed, sport.
The Klingons marched to their deaths because they faced Khan. Maul isn't Khan. The pirates have no training and are just opportunistic fools. Maul also had an injured ally but fighting wasn't even an option. False. The camera followed Kirk and we see they defeated Kirk. Khan mowed them down and the rest. We see lots of blasts going his way. We don't need to see every blast because we know what's occurring. We see Khan was simply not even challenged there unlike Maul who lost a leg just trying to escape. How many pirates did the brothers take out ?
Originally posted by quanchi112 Khan had trained soldiers firing at him not disloyal, illiterate yahoos. There weren't three or four simultaneous blasts so despite your claims he was just caught.
Why does being illiterate mean you can't fire a gun properly? Plenty of people can shoot guns well and not be book smart or even book proficient. That's really just a cheap jab to try and undermine the tactical situation.
The situation was that Maul and Savage were out in the open, had no cover, and there is no physical way they could have stopped all of those blaster bolts. As it is, they're lucky to have survived. Khan wouldn't have.
That despite your he can see what's coming first he just gets kicked like anyone else. It all comes down to skill and reflexes.
So why is it that they train jedi to deflect things with no means of visual aid? In combat, a force user has to concentrate. They have to be one with the force. And the force isn't 100% accurate either. A jedi may sense that their enemy is going to punch or kick them. He takes the stronger feeling, though in the heat of the moment, he may not know which one that is.
Mistakes can and do happen.
The distraction was the shrapnel followed by the leg tying concluding in disarming him. Again Pre was incredibly skilled which is the point as is Khan. He didn't win because he's weak without his weapons in hand to hand combat. But he made it interesting and Maul is pretty formidable.
Pre wasn't weak in hand to hand. He obviously had some skill in it. The problem was, he was facing someone who was also skilled in hand to hand combat and could sense his attacks. That makes it really difficult to overpower someone.
That isn't canon to Into Darkness Khan. Alternate reality version so that never occurred to this Khan. A younger Kirk couldn't even hurt him. This Khan won and he didn't even have to land a blow. Later Khan crushes him in hand to hand. Have you even seen the film ? Your ignorance is making me lose interest in you.That isn't canon to Alternate reality Khan.
Sorry, but yes it is. Khan at the end of his reign, was a middle-aged man. That's just fact. Khan's genetic code was also long decided and he simply can't regenerate or survive falls that high. He is fast, he is strong, and he is incredibly durable. But he's not this demigod that Into Darkness painted him out to be.
But that's not surprising. Because the director couldn't give us actual drama and make use of the actor's ability to produce an intense character, he gave a ball-numbing action scene where he's supposed to be a one-man-army. Which is not at all how augments work.
Augments are more in the weight class of a Spartan.
Outside his armor.
It is obvious Maul won but one sided domination didn't occur.
So? Pre is also a proud member of Death Watch, who wanted to rekindle their people's warrior heritage. A warrior heritage that included slaying Jedi in the past. Pre knows how to fight Jedi. And he did it well. But he wasn't good enough and he died for it.
Khan, to my knowledge, has no knowledge of jedi.
He also has a phaser rifle. He can use both weapons on one target and the distance between these two make Maul have to close the distance.
His phaser rifle isn't appreciably different than a blaster. If he fired that thing, he's liable to get himself shot.
Yes, that is but that isn't eu. It also doesn't occur in real time and flowery language doesn't replace his real time feats we can see.
Again, this isn't EU. Disney said that all canon that is part of Disney canon is on equal footing. The movies are no more valid than SW Rebels and that's no more valid than a New Dawn. Lords of Sith is one of the new novels that shows Sideous and Vader breaking lose.
You know, where they murdered lots of giant monsters?
Khan went down off his elevated position and easily took out more Klingons. Shots did get through. No shots hit Khan. Not a single one. That says something. You say Khan is an idiot but then say he knows enough to get in an elevated position. Khab also had over a dozen people firing and two ships to contend with. Kudos to khan.
Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. Either you have to accept that what we see isn't strictly what happened (SoD) or you have to accept that Khan has no concept of tactics or strategies. Because regardless of whether or not it works, it doesn't change the fact that what he did was stupid and suicidal.
Kenobi wasn't there yet so don't pull that. The difference is Maul isn't Khan nor does he possess his weaponry which is more ideal against the Pirates there.
He was coming after them. Pretty sure they knew that.
1) it occurred. Deal with the facts.
2) he didn't need to, dummy. Don't argue with results, nerd.
3) he crushed them so he prioritized just fine. Again he was successful.
4) he leapt to close the gap after he gunned the one down.
5) he didn't need to. Don't argue with results. He prevailed, sport.
Again, that's not how it works. You're literally arguing that because someone jumped in a tank with hungry sharks and managed to swim to the other side, that what he did was smart. It isn't, because in all likely-hood, that's how you get yourself killed.
The Klingons marched to their deaths because they faced Khan.
That doesn't even make any ****ing sense.
Anywho, I think it's pretty obvious that you really have nothing to argue with. I mean, for God's sake, you're actually trying to pretend that what Khan did was smart, simply to try and make him look good, so you can avoid SoD.
Originally posted by playa1258
Mith, you will be treated to the most ridiculous trolling on any board right now. Quan thinks spamming the board makes him manly or something. He will not listen to anyone and will troll anyone here relentlessly.Very pathetic if you ask me.
He knows. I already informed him of Quan's antics on SB.
Originally posted by playa1258
Mith, you will be treated to the most ridiculous trolling on any board right now. Quan thinks spamming the board makes him manly or something. He will not listen to anyone and will troll anyone here relentlessly.Very pathetic if you ask me.
But he's not even good at trolling. He's like the Little Engine Who Thought He Could.
I don't think you could call him a troll. He just plain out sucks.
Originally posted by Darkstorm ZeroI thought his avatar looked familiar. He's an as share from space battles come to be destroyed on here. The dude ignores facts left and right. He even said Shev sucks because an old actor plays him. He's fruit loop crazy.
He knows. I already informed him of Quan's antics on SB.
Originally posted by One_True_MithSays the biggest fool of them all. Go speak about marathons somewhere else, nerd.
But he's not even good at trolling. He's like the Little Engine Who Thought He Could.I don't think you could call him a troll. He just plain out sucks.
The statement is he flat out sucks not plain out. You're an utter and abysmal failure and can't even mock properly.
😂
Originally posted by One_True_MithTheir intelligence in general is suspect. They also don't have proper training so they can't be compared to military soldiers. They are motivated by greed and are simply unintelligent thugs. Maul didn't stop them. They weren't great warriors he just couldn't overcome the odds there.
Why does being illiterate mean you can't fire a gun properly? Plenty of people can shoot guns well and not be book smart or even book proficient. That's really just a cheap jab to try and undermine the tactical situation.The situation was that Maul and Savage were out in the open, had no cover, and there is no physical way they could have stopped all of those blaster bolts. As it is, they're lucky to have survived. Khan wouldn't have.
So why is it that they train jedi to deflect things with no means of visual aid? In combat, a force user has to concentrate. They have to be one with the force. And the force isn't 100% accurate either. A jedi may sense that their enemy is going to punch or kick them. He takes the stronger feeling, though in the heat of the moment, he may not know which one that is.
Mistakes can and do happen.
Pre wasn't weak in hand to hand. He obviously had some skill in it. The problem was, he was facing someone who was also skilled in hand to hand combat and could sense his attacks. That makes it really difficult to overpower someone.
Sorry, but yes it is. Khan at the end of his reign, was a middle-aged man. That's just fact. Khan's genetic code was also long decided and he simply can't regenerate or survive falls that high. He is fast, he is strong, and he is incredibly durable. But he's not this demigod that Into Darkness painted him out to be.
But that's not surprising. Because the director couldn't give us actual drama and make use of the actor's ability to produce an intense character, he gave a ball-numbing action scene where he's supposed to be a one-man-army. Which is not at all how augments work.
Augments are more in the weight class of a Spartan.
Outside his armor.
So? Pre is also a proud member of Death Watch, who wanted to rekindle their people's warrior heritage. A warrior heritage that included slaying Jedi in the past. Pre knows how to fight Jedi. And he did it well. But he wasn't good enough and he died for it.
Khan, to my knowledge, has no knowledge of jedi.
His phaser rifle isn't appreciably different than a blaster. If he fired that thing, he's liable to get himself shot.
Again, this isn't EU. Disney said that all canon that is part of Disney canon is on equal footing. The movies are no more valid than SW Rebels and that's no more valid than a New Dawn. Lords of Sith is one of the new novels that shows Sideous and Vader breaking lose.
You know, where they murdered lots of giant monsters?
Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. Either you have to accept that what we see isn't strictly what happened (SoD) or you have to accept that Khan has no concept of tactics or strategies. Because regardless of whether or not it works, it doesn't change the fact that what he did was stupid and suicidal.
He was coming after them. Pretty sure they knew that.
Again, that's not how it works. You're literally arguing that because someone jumped in a tank with hungry sharks and managed to swim to the other side, that what he did was smart. It isn't, because in all likely-hood, that's how you get yourself killed.
That doesn't even make any ****ing sense.
Anywho, I think it's pretty obvious that you really have nothing to argue with. I mean, for God's sake, you're actually trying to pretend that what Khan did was smart, simply to try and make him look good, so you can avoid SoD.
So go on the offensive. When you're just on the defensive and don't press your foes without any long ranged firepower I see why they fled. Khan would have decimated these untainted, illiterate brethren of yours.
So long story short skill and training matters. They have strengths but don't steamroll skilled opponents with their own skill sets either as proven by the Vizsla fight.
Pre was weak in hand to hand. When it went that route without weapons he was easily broken. Khan's cellular regeneration and superior strength would break Maul's cranium.
No, we see him in space seed as far younger than the older version from the Wrath of Khan. Yea, he is. I'm glad you call him a demi god and blatantly ignore his feats/facts from the film. You just pulled out your bias card.
Abrams Trek not yours or previous Treks. This nutrek is different so your idea can't override the facts from the Nufilm.
Drivel. Useless drive.
I agree Pre knows how to fight Jedi or anyone due to his skill set. He was highly skilled with a light saber himself. Khan's a super soldier whose combat skills are just too good for Maul to overcome especially when considering Khan's firepower. Khan is going to gun down his enemies all the same. If Khan studied his opponent he'd even make it look easier due to his brilliance and tactical acumen.
Nah, it's more successive and that isn't the only weapon he brings to bear here.
Books don't show the feats and visuals so we don't see it thus it loses equal grounds. Books are meant for descriptive, flowering language but don't get caught up in it boy.
So ? Spock Prime chased off a giant monster with a torch. Who cares ?
Khan was successful so it was very intelligent. His abilities, skills are superhuman so he can pull it off. You can't. You're judging a fcutinal superhuman based off human/realistic standards. It's cute to see desperation but also rather sad. Khan did so easily. Nuff said.
They fled the Pirates because they were outnumbered and didn't feel they could win. They weren't running from Kenobi.
I'm saying that a guy who easily decimated a squad of Klingons who wasn't even mildly injured is smart. Success. Your opinion and speculation is probably as worthless as your sex life.
He was smart. The movie beat the viewer over the head with how brilliant he was. He was a one man weapon of mass destruction. Read the film synopsis for crying out loud, nerd.