Originally posted by NewGuy01There's no way to give an incontrovertible quantification, but we can discern a fairly close estimate.
Is there any way to quantify how much Goku's base PL increased between the Freiza saga and the Buu saga?
We know that by the time of BoG(which takes place 4 years after the conclusion of the Boo saga), base Goku was still weaker than Freeza--which means his base PL was <120m. However, Beerus' statement seemed to imply that there wasn't some vast margin between them: "As you are now, I don't think you could defeat Freeza."
That said, I would have Goku's base PL around 100m during the Boo saga--maybe a little higher. And since his unamped base PL during the Freeza saga was 3m, this accounts for an increase of ~30x.
Originally posted by NewGuy01In the English-dub, yes. The Japanese-dub worded it differently, however:
Doesn't Beerus actually say that Goku beating Freiza would be "impossible" in his Base state though?
That is the translation we default to in situations like this. The original Japanese dialogue always supersedes the English dialogue.
I don't know why you guys act like Bills's statement from there meant anything.
It was simply to get Goku to show him the SSJ forms. From what we've seen, Bills can't even sense ki, or godly ki. He has Whiss do all the sensing for him, and he couldn't even tell that SSJG Goku was holding back against him, in BOTG's.
I mean, take into account the ridiculous boosts everyone got since the Frieza saga. The androids showed up, and made everyone look like playthings, then Imperfect Cell showed up, and made them look like children, then Piccolo fused, and beat him, then Cell came back, and two-shotted Piccolo, then #16 proved he was stronger than Cell by beating him up, then Cell became Semi-perfect, and one-shotted #16, then Vegeta came out, and was man-handling Cell, until he became Perfect, and tanked Vegeta's strongest attacks, without feeling them. Then Goku came out, and fought on par with Perfect Cell, in SSJ1. Imperfect Cell stated that he was much stronger than Frieza, even before absorbing all of Ginger town, meaning that if base Goku could have beaten him, he could have beaten Frieza. And Perfect Cell was probably at least 30 times stronger than imperfect Cell. And then Super Perfect Cell showed up, and SSJ2 Gohan still pwned him. Then Buu showed up, and practically one-shot everyone.
I mean, it just doesn't seem like there is any way that Goku's pl didn't go from 3 million in the namek saga, to over 120 million in the buu saga.
And we have support from Supreme Kai saying that he was "1,000 times stronger than Frieza". So yeah, I don't think Frieza would stand a chance against Base Buu saga Goku.
Thoughts? Why does everyone take Bills's statement so seriously, when he hasn't even shown the ability to sense ki at all.
Originally posted by SSJGGogetaBeerus' statement, coupled with the fact that neither King Kai or Goku disagreed with his assertion, is what makes me think we can accept it as fact.
Thoughts? Why does everyone take Bills's statement so seriously, when he hasn't even shown the ability to sense ki at all.
Originally posted by ares834Should be able to shitstomp 100 percent Frieza too though.
Wells base Goku should be able to shit stomp first form Frieza so I'd assume so.
Not to mention Goku himself stated that the two beings around Base Goten/Trunks level were Frieza level. And Goku only ever fought final form Frieza/100 percent.
Originally posted by One Big MobYes. Remember when Whis used his staff to replay Freeza's defeat on Namek to Beerus?:
Did Beerus even know Frieza had more forms than his first form?
Originally posted by One Big MobTarble stated that Abo and Kado were each more powerful than Freeza was. And since Tarble would have only known about 1st form Freeza, that is who he was comparing them to.
Not to mention Goku himself stated that the two beings around Base Goten/Trunks level were Frieza level. And Goku only ever fought final form Frieza/100 percent.
Originally posted by Galan007Of which there's a good chance he never met that form. Frieza's transformations were a secret to nearly everyone, of which you remark on with Tarble.
Yes. Remember when Whis used his staff to replay Freeza's defeat on Namek to Beerus?:Tarble stated that Abo and Kado were each more powerful than Freeza was. And since Tarble would have only known about 1st form Freeza, that is who he was comparing them to.
"Frieza huh? In hindsight not much of a foe. Perfect for the boys."
- Goku
Not to mention SS Goku one shotted a guy who SS Gotenks couldn't. Which should make his base form around BoG crazy high. Unless we're of the opinion that SS Gotenks is less than 50 times more powerful than Frieza.
Beerus just thought highly of Frieza and low of everyone else. Considering how low Frieza was compared to himself he couldn't get a measure of how powerful he was. Just thought everyone else was weaker.
Originally posted by One Big MobWhis/Beerus were clearly familiar with Freeza's 4th form... Which is why neither of them were surprised to see said transformation during the flashbacks of his defeat on Namek that Whis provided in BoG and ep.3 of Super.
Of which there's a good chance he never met that form. Frieza's transformations were a secret to nearly everyone, of which you remark on with Tarble.
Furthermore, considering that Freeza's 4th form was really his true form(the lower transformations were created in order for him to conserve power), I don't see what legitimate reason we have to assume Beerus/Whis wouldn't have known about it..?
Originally posted by One Big MobAgain, the reference what in regard to 1st form Freeza. If he was referring to 4th form Freeza there, it would mean that the boys were more powerful than himself--which we know is obviously not true.
"Frieza huh? In hindsight not much of a foe. Perfect for the boys."
- Goku
Originally posted by One Big MobMoments of stupidity/inconsistency run rampant in DBZ at times.
Not to mention SS Goku one shotted a guy who SS Gotenks couldn't. Which should make his base form around BoG crazy high.
Originally posted by One Big MobBeerus knew enough about Freeza's power to know that base Goku couldn't defeat him--and neither Goku or King Kai disagreed. We also know that even back during the Namek saga, Goku was more powerful that Freeza's first 3 forms. So aside from the above evidence, logic also dictates that Beerus was comparing base Goku to Freeza's 4th form.
Beerus just thought highly of Frieza and low of everyone else. Considering how low Frieza was compared to himself he couldn't get a measure of how powerful he was. Just thought everyone else was weaker.
So again: at the beginning of BoG, base Goku was weaker than 4th form Freeza--this puts his PL <120m.
Originally posted by Galan007You're ignoring showings and a statement from someone who only fought Frieza's last form in favor of a statement from someone who can't even properly read ki. 😬
Whis/Beerus were clearly familiar with Freeza's 4th form... Which is why neither of them were surprised to see said transformation during the flashbacks of his defeat on Namek that Whis provided in BoG and ep.3 of Super.Furthermore, considering that Freeza's 4th form was really his true form(the lower transformations were created in order for him to conserve power), I don't see what legitimate reason we have to assume Beerus/Whis wouldn't have known about it..?
Again, the reference what in regard to 1st form Freeza. If he was referring to 4th form Freeza there, it would mean that the boys were more powerful than himself--which we know is obviously not true.
Moments of stupidity/inconsistency run rampant in DBZ at times.
Beerus knew enough about Freeza's power to know that base Goku couldn't defeat him--and neither Goku or King Kai disagreed. We also know that even back during the Namek saga, Goku was more powerful that Freeza's first 3 forms. So aside from the above evidence, logic also dictates that Beerus was comparing base Goku to Freeza's 4th form.
So again: at the beginning of BoG, base Goku was weaker than 4th form Freeza--this puts his PL <120m.
That being said.
Blatant speculation at the top part. Nevermind the fact that Frieza's last form and his first form would make absolutely no difference in comparison to Beerus. It really makes no sense to assume he just transformed for Beerus and then what? Transformed down right away for all the people who worked for him that didn't know he had another form?
What Beerus and Whis were familar with was Frieza, not his forms. The fact that Beerus didn't care at all about his Golden Form confirms that. Though probably shouldn't include Whis since his knowledge isn't important. Though even then he apparently lied to Beerus when he told him Goku killed Frieza.
Goku only ever fought Frieza's last form though. Tarble can say whatever he wants, what matters is Goku saying Frieza would be perfect for the boys. The only Frieza Goku knew who was in hindsight not much of a foe was 1-100 percent Frieza.
And you're assuming we should take Lord "What Frieza was defeated!!!???" Beerus' opinion vs the guy who could actually sense, could fight evenly with, and who compared later battles with in Goku. We're also ignoring direct showings as well. Goku saying the boys were Frieza level doesn't lower himself just because Beerus held Frieza in high regard. The fact that Goku completely showed Gotenks up as well confirms he was way more powerful than Frieza/the boys.
Plus base Trunks/Goten did incredibly well against Android 18 as well, who we know is quite beyond Frieza. Doesn't contradict anything but a statement made by a guy who thought Frieza was the next toughest guy in the universe, and who can't sense ki.
Goku getting really strong isn't inconsistent since that's his whole thing. Do we really think that's dumber or more inconsistent than Goku being less than Frieza after all these years. Hell Vegeta started catching up to his 1 percent form in days. Goku's had years upon years to catch up. Including years where all he did was train (otherworld, Rosat, plus he was training hard as hell right before Beerus showed up). I think it's illogical to assume he didn't surpass that level.
Beerus didn't know shit. The guy slept most his time away. He was absolutely floored to learn that someone defeated Frieza. Defeated Frieza. I don't get this disagreeing thing meaning anything though. We have proof Goku holds Frieza in low regard. He doesn't need to do anything when other statements and showings contradict Beerus. Especially when Beerus immediately brought up transformations right after expecting an answer to that as opposed to the "can't defeat Frieza" thing.
It wasn't. Goku said Frieza was only base Goten/Trunks level. Goku being a person who could sense ki and who was the only person who ever fought all out Frieza should know.