Goku's Base PL

Originally posted by One Big Mob
You're ignoring showings and a statement from someone who only fought Frieza's last form in favor of a statement from someone who can't even properly read ki. 😬

That being said.

Blatant speculation at the top part. Nevermind the fact that Frieza's last form and his first form would make absolutely no difference in comparison to Beerus. It really makes no sense to assume he just transformed for Beerus and then what? Transformed down right away for all the people who worked for him that didn't know he had another form?

What Beerus and Whis were familar with was Frieza, not his forms. The fact that Beerus didn't care at all about his Golden Form confirms that. Though probably shouldn't include Whis since his knowledge isn't important. Though even then he apparently lied to Beerus when he told him Goku killed Frieza.

Goku only ever fought Frieza's last form though. Tarble can say whatever he wants, what matters is Goku saying Frieza would be perfect for the boys. The only Frieza Goku knew who was in hindsight not much of a foe was 1-100 percent Frieza.
And you're assuming we should take Lord "What Frieza was defeated!!!???" Beerus' opinion vs the guy who could actually sense, could fight evenly with, and who compared later battles with in Goku. We're also ignoring direct showings as well. Goku saying the boys were Frieza level doesn't lower himself just because Beerus held Frieza in high regard. The fact that Goku completely showed Gotenks up as well confirms he was way more powerful than Frieza/the boys.
Plus base Trunks/Goten did incredibly well against Android 18 as well, who we know is quite beyond Frieza. Doesn't contradict anything but a statement made by a guy who thought Frieza was the next toughest guy in the universe, and who can't sense ki.

Goku getting really strong isn't inconsistent since that's his whole thing. Do we really think that's dumber or more inconsistent than Goku being less than Frieza after all these years. Hell Vegeta started catching up to his 1 percent form in days. Goku's had years upon years to catch up. Including years where all he did was train (otherworld, Rosat, plus he was training hard as hell right before Beerus showed up). I think it's illogical to assume he didn't surpass that level.

Beerus didn't know shit. The guy slept most his time away. He was absolutely floored to learn that someone defeated Frieza. Defeated Frieza. I don't get this disagreeing thing meaning anything though. We have proof Goku holds Frieza in low regard. He doesn't need to do anything when other statements and showings contradict Beerus. Especially when Beerus immediately brought up transformations right after expecting an answer to that as opposed to the "can't defeat Frieza" thing.

It wasn't. Goku said Frieza was only base Goten/Trunks level. Goku being a person who could sense ki and who was the only person who ever fought all out Frieza should know.

-Goku was on Namek(in the rejuvenation chamber) and sensed every version of Freeza. EVERY version. He even commented on Freeza's power increases every time he transformed. IOW, he knew what level of ki Freeza possessed in ALL of his transformations--his perceptions were definitely NOT limited exclusively to Freeza's 4th form.

-Tarble was essentially exiled in space during the entire Freeza fiasco. Therefore, he would have ONLY known about 1st form Freeza--so when he said that Abo/Kado were each>Freeza, he would have been referring to 1st form Freeza. Logic dictates that Goku was using the same comparison as well(you'll see why a little later.)

-Beerus stated that base Goku, without any explicit power-ups(ie. Kaio Ken), was < Freeza. Beerus knew about 4th form Freeza. Logic dictates that he was comparing Goku to 4th form Freeza. Neither King Kai or Goku disagreed with his assertion--to the contrary, they actually AGREED that Goku was weaker:

-Because of the above info, we know that Abo/Kado were clearly NOT 4th form Freeza-level, because the boys were able to easily stomp them in their base levels, without powering-up... And the boys are certainly NOT > base Goku, who is < 4th form Freeza. Again: Abo/Kado MUST have been 1st form Freeza-level.

In summary: Beerus states that base Goku < Freeza. Goku and King Kai AGREE WITH THIS. Therefore, base Goku's PL < 120m by proxy. Your opinion doesn't supersede in-film fact.

Lastly, the most recent info=the most canon. So even IF you believe there is a contradiction here(I don't), Toriyama contradicts himself ALL THE TIME--that's how he's always rolled. In BoG, for example, Goku could breath/talk in space just fine. In RoF, however, he inextricably could not... Things like that. 🙂

Originally posted by Based
If we're giving the kids credit for "scaring Android 18" then yeah, there's no way base Goku is worse than Freeza. Though I'm with it to think the base Saiyans aren't that special either.

Originally posted by Galan007
Not going to comment on everything in this wall-o-text. Just going to reiterate a few points...

-Goku was on Namek(in the rejuvenation chamber) and sensed every version of Freeza. EVERY version. He even commented on Freeza's power increases every time he transformed. IOW, he knew what level of ki Freeza possessed in ALL of his transformations--his perceptions were definitely NOT limited exclusively to Freeza's 4th form.

That's a severe reach and you know it. Frieza was the fight of Goku's life and the turning point to where he became SS. You really think when Goku reflects back on Frieza he goes "Oh, well he must be talking about the power I was sensing when I was in a machine, not the power I sensed when I had the most epic fight of my life."?

But Goku outright stated Frieza in his entirety was not much of a foe. He didn't break it down into this form or that form, he said "Frieza". Because he wasn't much of a foe in hindsight, and it makes perfect sense that two years later Trunks and Goten could be Frieza level at base.

Originally posted by Galan007
-Tarble was essentially exiled in space during the entire Freeza fiasco. Therefore, he would have ONLY known about 1st form Freeza--so when he said that Abo/Kado were each>Freeza, he would have been referring to 1st form Freeza. Logic dictates that Goku was using the same comparison as well(you'll see why a little later.)

I'm saying Goku's statement stands on its own merit. Because Goku knows all about the limits of Frieza.

Originally posted by Galan007
-Beerus stated that base Goku, without any explicit power-ups(ie. Kaio Ken), was < Freeza. Beerus knew about 4th form Freeza. Logic dictates that he was comparing Goku to 4th form Freeza. Neither King Kai or Goku disagreed with his assertion--to the contrary, they actually AGREED that Goku was weaker:

He's saying he knows well about the transformations. No one even had time to react to him saying he's weaker than Frieza. And the fact that the conversation shifted completely over to transformations afterwards, means that that became the more important topic.

Nor would him even admitting to it mean much. What you say later is the most recent canon is the most relevant, but the most recent canon doesn't disregard showings and other statements when it's from a vague source (Beerus) with ulterior motives (Goku not pissing off Beerus so he doesn't blow up King Kai's planet).

We don't throw all logic out the window just because a statement was made by a guy who can't sense ki. That's not exactly proof. 😬

Let me edit that into your post so the conversation isn't missing key pieces.

Originally posted by Galan007
-Because of the above info, we know that Abo/Kado were clearly NOT 4th form Freeza-level, because the boys were able to easily stomp them in their base levels, without powering-up... And the boys are certainly NOT > base Goku, who is < 4th form Freeza. Again: Abo/Kado MUST have been 1st form Freeza-level.

What that means is that Goten/Trunks are only around as powerful as Vegeta was when he fought 1st form Frieza.

And what that means is that they are only 50 times more powerful, which would make them weaker than fp Frieza. Which would make them way too weak to give a good fight to Android 18 in their base forms.

And we'll follow some of the things you've used to pump them up that are now impossible:

They are too weak to cause SS Goku/Vegeta to exert themselves in a sparring session
They are took weak to scare Android 18 with a blast while in SS form.
They are too weak to outdo Gohan's kick on Buu and inflict damage to Buu.
They are too weak to get Piccolo to sweat when they power up to max.

Keep in mind, this was 2 years after all of this too, when they would logically be stronger. So if two years after all this they were only first form Frieza level, how'd they accomplish this? How would they beat Piccolo working together who was above Android 17 level? How Galan?

Originally posted by Galan007
In summary: Beerus states that base Goku < Freeza. Goku and King Kai AGREE WITH THIS. Therefore, base Goku's PL < 120m by proxy. Your opinion doesn't supersede in-film fact.

Goku being weaker than Frieza exists in only one bubble spoken by a guy using heavy assumptions and who had a supremely high opinion of Frieza.

Which goes against a lot of canon.

Originally posted by Galan007
Lastly, the most recent info=the most canon. So even IF you believe there is a contradiction here(I don't), Toriyama contradicts himself ALL THE TIME--that's how he's always rolled. In BoG, for example, Goku could breath/talk in space just fine. In RoF, however, he inextricably could not... Things like that. 🙂

They only sacred her after transforming into Super Saiyans--which makes sense.

Dragonball Super episode 3. Vegeta says Goku is now the number one most powerful being after the defeat of Buu. This would make him more powerful than Gohan. This would make him more powerful than Gotenks as well. Now we connect the dots since the multipliers are the same and we compare SS1 Goku to SS1 Gotenks. SS1 Gotenks by Vegeta's statement is weaker than SS1 Goku. Which would mean Base Gotenks is weaker than Frieza's final form. Which would mean SS1 Gotenks is not 50 times stronger than Frieza.

Oh my, did we end up back at the same place from the special? Where SS1 Goku completely showed up SS1 Gotenks?

So if we go by the most recent information... it would go right back into the special where I asked you if base Gotenks is weaker than Frieza. 🙂

But go on and tell me how Vegeta's opinion on people all around him and he knows quite well mean less than Beerus' opinion on a guy he just met and Frieza who he assumed was the most powerful being behind him in the universe.

Also, to tie this into GT (ignoring God form). Apparently Goku is under Frieza level 3 years after the end of Buu, but then in 12ish years his base shoots up into Kid Buu level. Makes sense.

Why can't Beerus sense Ki now?

I find it hard to believe that post-Buu Saga Base Goku would have trouble with Frieza. Even without Kaio-ken.

All that training, zenkais and shit and still below Frieza? Nah...

Saiyaman Gohan at base one-shotted Frieza in Fusion Reborn 😛 Non-canon, but I feel that's how it should go...

Originally posted by ares834
Why can't Beerus sense Ki now?

Considering he was in the same state when Beerus gave him a once over it would make sense he was read at that level.

If Beerus can sense ki of course. If not, then well... how inaccurate either way.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Yes, when Goku thinks about Frieza's power, it's only natural he's speaking of the Friezas he only sensed.

That's a severe reach and you know it.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
But Goku outright stated Frieza in his entirety was not much of a foe. He didn't break it down into this form or that form, he said "Frieza". Because he wasn't much of a foe in hindsight, and it makes perfect sense that two years later Trunks and Goten could be Frieza level at base.

Again, you're trying to supplement fact with your opinion.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
I'm not saying Tarble knew of other forms, though I like how you ignore this logic for Beerus knowing the power of other forms (besides the flashback)

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Why are you being so dishonest here?

Calm down with the unwarranted bashing, though. I've stayed quite civil with you, and would appreciate the same courtesy.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
We don't throw all logic out the window just because a statement was made by a guy who can't sense ki. That's not exactly proof. 😬

There is a reason Toriyama had Beerus make that statement... And it certainly wasn't to showcase how inept the God of Destruction is at judging an opponent. srsly

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Well, if we follow this logic, it means that Trunks and Goten are only around 1st form Frieza level in their base.

This renders the rest of your hate-filled rant on the subject irrelevant.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Goku being weaker than Frieza exists in only one bubble spoken by a guy using heavy assumptions and who had a supremely high opinion of Frieza.

Moreover, what legitimate reason do we have to assume that Goku's base PL WAS beyond 4th form Freeza's/120m..?

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Dragonball Super episode 3. Vegeta says Goku is now the number one most powerful being after the defeat of Buu. This would make him more powerful than Gohan. This would make him more powerful than Gotenks as well.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Also, to tie this into GT (ignoring God form). Apparently Goku is under Frieza level 3 years after the end of Buu, but then in 12ish years his base shoots up into Kid Buu level. Makes sense.

A quick, sorta, related questions, but is the manga with Cooler considered canon or?

Cooler was on shown in the films. He is considered a non-canon character.

Yeah, I agree with Stillman and OBM here.

It seems to me like Bills was only suggesting that he wanted to see Goku go SSJ. And even if he wasn't, Goku CLEARLY wasn't at full power at that point. His aura wasn't even showing. So he was relaxed/suppressed.

Either way, it doesn't make sense that Supreme Kai is so much stronger than Frieza, and Goku in base is stronger than Supreme Kai, yet Frieza is still stronger than Goku. That's the reason I don't take that statement at face value. Also, coupled with the fact that Frieza's dad in ROF told him to never fight Bills or Buu, yet left out the four Supreme Kai's, each of whom could kill him with a single blast.

Toriyama's just forgetful, like he always has been.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
And even if he wasn't, Goku CLEARLY wasn't at full power at that point. His aura wasn't even showing. So he was relaxed/suppressed.

Originally posted by Galan007
-Beerus stated that base Goku, without any explicit power-ups(ie. Kaio Ken), was < Freeza.

Goku's baseline power-level, without powering up via Kaio Ken and whatnot, was sub-Freeza-level. There would have been NO reason for Toriyama to specifically include that piece of dialogue unless it was intended to be fact. Imo.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Either way, it doesn't make sense that Supreme Kai is so much stronger than Frieza, and Goku in base is stronger than Supreme Kai

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Toriyama's just forgetful, like he always has been.

Originally posted by Galan007
...Which is all I've been saying:

Goku's baseline power-level, without powering up via Kaio Ken and whatnot, was sub-Freeza-level. There would have been NO reason for Toriyama to specifically include that piece of dialogue unless it was intended to be fact. Imo.

Eh, what? No way in heckfire was base Goku more powerful than Supreme Kaioshin. 😕

Lol, no doubt. He's one of the most forgetful/inconsistent writers in the game. 👆

Ah, okay. It seemed to me like you were saying that Goku was definitely weaker than Frieza, pre-BOTG's.

Idk, Toriyama has included way more silly things without them being true. Hell, he had us believing that Super Vegeta was still stronger than Perfect Cell for a while, until #16 said Vegeta was going to die.

Yes, he was stronger than Supreme Kai, in base. Supreme Kai was SCARED of Yakon, saying that he was "extremely dangerous". Goku in base form was handily beating Yakon, even after being teleported to a planet that was devoid of light. Goku only went SSJ to demonstrate how pointless it was for them to be on a light-less planet, since he could generate his own light. Either way, Supreme Kai was very scared of Yakon, and Goku pwned him in base. Plus, it was implied by Vegeta that he was stronger than Kibito, who was presumably around equal to Supreme Kai. Idk, what are your thoughts on this? It always seemed to me like Supreme Kai was weaker than the Saiyan's, and even Piccolo.

Yes though, lol. One episode, Goku is blocking a planet busters sword with his index finger, and the next, he's getting nearly killed by a grunts laser beam, lol.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Yes, he was stronger than Supreme Kai, in base. Supreme Kai was SCARED of Yakon, saying that he was "extremely dangerous". Goku in base form was handily beating Yakon, even after being teleported to a planet that was devoid of light. Goku only went SSJ to demonstrate how pointless it was for them to be on a light-less planet, since he could generate his own light. Either way, Supreme Kai was very scared of Yakon, and Goku pwned him in base. Plus, it was implied by Vegeta that he was stronger than Kibito, who was presumably around equal to Supreme Kai. Idk, what are your thoughts on this? It always seemed to me like Supreme Kai was weaker than the Saiyan's, and even Piccolo.

After all, he was able to psychically hold SSJ2 Gohan against his will:
http://i.imgur.com/gvlDB59.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/SYMNqM8.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/X9bp0rb.jpg

He also noted that each of the 5 original Supreme Kaioshin(which would obviously include himself) could have felled Freeza with a single blow... Something I definitely don't think base Goku could have done:
http://i.imgur.com/h21B1sI.jpg

He endured a massive beating from Fat Boo without being KO'd, and delivered a few impressive psychic attacks of his own... Which is also something I don't think base Goku could have done:
http://i.imgur.com/rlVnR0Z.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/sPNiPa4.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ZGlTIed.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/DBLDobk.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/TxLwY0K.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/93YADvW.jpg

Lastly, he detonated one of Boo's blasts, which saved Gohan's life:
http://i.imgur.com/Svs4bGb.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Gt6JoJI.jpg
Dunno what kind of power that would require, though. Just thought I'd mention it.

Anyway, at the very least he could psychically paralyze base Goku(which forces his defenses to completely drop), and proceed to KO/kill him with pretty much any type of attack thereafter.

As for Yakon: I didn't get the impression that Supreme Kaioshin was necessarily scared of him. I think he was simply not aware of how powerful Goku was at the time(he'd only seen Goku's base level up to that point), so he offered his assistance during the fight in order to help end things quicker. Supreme Kaioshin was definitely scared shitless of Dabra, though--and Dabra was Perfect Cell-level... So we know he doesn't stand a chance against that order of power for sure.