Originally posted by ZenwolfIt's stated that Talzin can go toe-to-toe with Sidious but that statement doesn't have to be interpreted as them being equal. And when Sidious actually confronts her on Dathomir they initially appear to stalemate, but Sidious quickly gains the upper hand. It's quite obvious he was stronger.
You people confuse me with Talzin and where she stands on power. X.x1st it's she can go toe to toe with Sidious and hold off both his and Dooku's Lighting
2nd it's...well she got beat by Sidious so she isn't on his level.
....So what is it?
Dooku intervenes to aid Palps but as it's being pointed out, Maul does so for Talzin also, and given that Dooku had been drained of his power, he wouldn't have counted for much.
However it should be remembered that Talzin is actually said to be not at full strength when confronted by Sidious, however she was also on Dathomir, which likely notably amped her powers. So in that respect Dathomir Talzin is just normal Talzin.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
It's stated that Talzin can go toe-to-toe with Sidious but that statement doesn't have to be interpreted as them being equal. And when Sidious actually confronts her on Dathomir they initially appear to stalemate, but Sidious quickly gains the upper hand. It's quite obvious he was stronger.Dooku intervenes to aid Palps but as it's being pointed out, Maul does so for Talzin also, and given that Dooku had been drained of his power, he wouldn't have counted for much.
However it should be remembered that Talzin is actually said to be not at full strength when confronted by Sidious, however she was also on Dathomir, which likely notably amped her powers. So in that respect Dathomir Talzin is just normal Talzin.
> Not sure if serious.
> wonders if Beni's read the comic.
> probably not
> smh
Ok, so let's analyse this shit.
Number 1:
The Ritual to awaken Talzin from her spirit form. This is a complex ritual that required the draining of a powerful Force User. A member of the Nightbrother clan says that the ritual will give Talzin all she needs to reach physical form. He also says that Dooku will not survive the encounter.
Why would he say Dooku would not Survive? Likely because Talzin is stronger than Dooku, and thus all the Force Energy he could give still would not return her to full power, requiring she drain him in his entirety to reach as close as possible.
That leads us into this. The infamous "she could be weakened" quote:
The full ritual taken to completion could weaken her, leave her needing to continue to gather her strength. This makes sense, she'd need to gather the power she could not steal from Dooku. Dooku would not return her to her original power levels.
This leads us into point 2:
Talzin's possession of Dooku. Possessing a powerful Force User demands a great deal of effort. Dooku was weak, yes, but it still would have cost her. She could not have controlled him without expending her power, yet she maintained enough of a position to fight in his body.
Next, Sidious attacks Dooku's possessed body with Force Lightning:
And it's actually wounding Talzin, given her screams and the fact he attacked her with it to get her out of his body:
The essential guide to the force says:
"Force Lightning causes excruciating pain as it weakens and individual's life"
.... Talzin's reincarnated body was even weaker, and wounded. She then proceeded to cut off her draining of his body faster because she needed to be released from his body.
Moving into point 3:
The duel. Talzin was never being overwhelmed by Sidious alone. People suggest Sidious' lightning was beginning to overpower Talzin's, it was not.
Here they fight evenly.
... Still fighting evenly.
That is where people think she was overpowered, but it was merely a perspective shift. Sidious is closer to the eye of the beholder than Talzin is. That's made obvious by the fact the Lightning on the right side of the panel is half the size of Talzin's body on the left, despite it being far thinner in previous panels.
They were still even.
That's where Dooku joins in and the rest is history. Maul offers Talzin his powers when Dooku shows up. Noting that this is a Maul who's already fought off and TK'd General Grievous.
It's also made clear that Talzin has power to spare when she actually uses Telekinesis in the form of a Lightning Bolt to strike Maul back into the arms of his forces. It's not exactly like Maul's power was the only thing keeping her alive, since she obviously had power to spare:
So suggesting that she wasn't weakened, was overpowered, or needed Maul's help, is all wrong. Glad we could settle that.
Originally posted by SelenialThat's all well and good but it fails to acknowledge for the nexus, which as strong in the dark side and particularly the Living Force, would have amplified her powers considerably. Remember Talzin, as it would appear, draws on her power externally. So a external source deeply connected to the Force would have increased her ability much more than any other individual.
Number 1:The Ritual to awaken Talzin from her spirit form. This is a complex ritual that required the draining of a powerful Force User. A member of the Nightbrother clan says that the ritual will give Talzin all she needs to reach physical form. He also says that Dooku will not survive the encounter.
Why would he say Dooku would not Survive? Likely because Talzin is stronger than Dooku, and thus all the Force Energy he could give still would not return her to full power, requiring she drain him in his entirety to reach as close as possible.
That leads us into this. The infamous "she could be weakened" quote:
The full ritual taken to completion could weaken her, leave her needing to continue to gather her strength. This makes sense, she'd need to gather the power she could not steal from Dooku. Dooku would not return her to her original power levels.
This leads us into point 2:
Talzin's possession of Dooku. Possessing a powerful Force User demands a great deal of effort. Dooku was weak, yes, but it still would have cost her. She could not have controlled him without expending her power, yet she maintained enough of a position to fight in his body.
Next, Sidious attacks Dooku's possessed body with Force Lightning:
And it's actually wounding Talzin, given her screams and the fact he attacked her with it to get her out of his body:
The essential guide to the force says:
"Force Lightning causes excruciating pain as it weakens and individual's life".... Talzin's reincarnated body was even weaker, and wounded. She then proceeded to cut off her draining of his body faster because she needed to be released from his body.
I also find it unlikely that Sidious' Force lightning would have had any effect on Talzin. Force lightning weakens life not because it has draining qualities, but simply because it damages the physical form, killing it, and so weakens that forms ability to channel the Force. So by leaving Dooku's body she should have negated any effects it had on her power, now channeled through her own body. Dooku is the only victim here.
Originally posted by SelenialI disagree here, while yes the point is valid in terms of the lightning, if you look at Talzin herself you can see she's gone from an upright position to being hunched, as if being pushed back, because she was.That is where people think she was overpowered, but it was merely a perspective shift. Sidious is closer to the eye of the beholder than Talzin is. That's made obvious by the fact the Lightning on the right side of the panel is half the size of Talzin's body on the left, despite it being far thinner in previous panels.
They were still even.
That said when it comes to comics, perspective if how the artists convey messages, the perspective her suggests Talzin is losing, because that is the message trying to be conveyed. Force lightning oscillates in size and number, especially if more power is put into it, that could be all we are seeing here.
That's where Dooku joins in and the rest is history. Maul offers Talzin his powers when Dooku shows up. Noting that this is a Maul who's already fought off and TK'd General Grievous.I don't remember suggesting that Talzin needed Maul's help, but it remains a fact that Maul offered him her power, which she was presumably wise enough to use, which would have allowed her to last as long as she did. However its inconsequential, given as soon as Dooku intervenes her lightning is routed.It's also made clear that Talzin has power to spare when she actually uses Telekinesis in the form of a Lightning Bolt to strike Maul back into the arms of his forces. It's not exactly like Maul's power was the only thing keeping her alive, since she obviously had power to spare:
So suggesting that she wasn't weakened, was overpowered, or needed Maul's help, is all [B]wrong.
Glad we could settle that. [/B]
Thanks for conceding Beni! 😄
Oh wait, what's that? You weren't aware you were conceding? Ok then allow me to elaborate!
Even if your argument was valid, Sidious was amped as well by the fact Dathomir has been staring in numerous sources as a nexus of Dark Side energy. It's not valid! The thread maker clearly indicated that Talzin's Dathomir feats apply.
Therefore she was weakened, still matched Sidious. A full strength Talzin would be more than capable of beating Plagueis with the force.
But I might as well reply to the rest. No, Force Lightning weakens life. That's confirmed in quite a lot of sources, hence why it's far more dangerous than actual Lightning. Not to mention she still would have undergone excruciating pain.
As for Talzin's stance, yep, she was hunched forward. As was Sidious, actually. They were both putting their full effort into it, you'd have to be mentally retarded to think equal combatants go in for a fight and don't give it their all.
And that's the most bullshit explanation of perspective I've ever seen. No, they changed the perspective because they needed to show the Lightning battle was still going on. They had however shown a neutral shot 4 times by then, why do it again?
And again, read the damn comic before you reply to me. Maul's power was used at the exact time Dooku launched his assault, your point is behind moot, it's flat out wrong.
Originally posted by SelenialConsidering drawing, or at least to any notable degree, is an active rather than passive action, I don't think we can say that for certain. Sure Sidious could have drawn on Dathomir for power, but that doesn't mean he did and no indication is given, it could well be that Sidious was confident enough in his own abilities to not deem it necessary. After all at no point did Talzin have the advantage.
Even if your argument was valid, Sidious was amped as well by the fact Dathomir has been staring in numerous sources as a nexus of Dark Side energy. It's not valid! The thread maker clearly indicated that Talzin's Dathomir feats apply.
That said it still remains a fact that Talzin would benefit more. "Dathomir feats apply" is also kinda vague, does that mean Talzin is has the Dathomir amp and is at full strength, or is merely a disclaimer that her Dathomir feats are not exempt from consideration?
But I might as well reply to the rest.You might, as you're argument is only valid if you can prove Talzin matched Sidious.
No, Force Lightning weakens life. That's confirmed in quite a lot of sources, hence why it's far more dangerous than actual Lightning. Not to mention she still would have undergone excruciating pain.EDIT: I see your point, could you provide these sources though?
The one you did doesn't imply weakens = drain. Really I fail to see how it does full stop.
As for pain, I think Talzin is capable of moving beyond that, if not using it to her advantage.
As for Talzin's stance, yep, she was hunched forward. As was Sidious, actually. They were both putting their full effort into it, you'd have to be mentally retarded to think equal combatants go in for a fight and don't give it their all.Not really...
They are perfectly upright here:
And then Talzin appears hunched as if reeling. Difference is pretty clear.
And that's the most bullshit explanation of perspective I've ever seen. No, they changed the perspective because they needed to show the Lightning battle was still going on. They had however shown a neutral shot 4 times by then, why do it again?I won't waste time debating a matter of opinion.
And again, read the damn comic before you reply to me. Maul's power was used at the exact time Dooku launched his assault, your point is behind moot, it's flat out wrong.Sel, I assumed you were joking at first, but it would now appear that you have indeed forgotten the time you accused me of not reading the comic, and I corrected you. I do so again.
That sad no need for an ad hominem any how. Try to be civil. 👆
Not sure what you mean though, the point is Talzin lost the contest of lightning as soon as Dooku intervened, so it's not proof she can contend with their combined raw output irregardless of Maul's involvement, which she could have only benefited from.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Considering drawing, or at least to any notable degree, is an active rather than passive action, I don't think we can say that for certain. Sure Sidious could have drawn on Dathomir for power, but that doesn't mean he did and no indication is given, it could well be that Sidious was confident enough in his own abilities to not deem it necessary. After all at no point did Talzin have the advantage.That said it still remains a fact that Talzin would benefit more. "Dathomir feats apply" is also kinda vague, does that mean Talzin is has the Dathomir amp and is at full strength, or is merely a disclaimer that her Dathomir feats are not exempt from consideration?
> implies there's nothing saying he draws on the Nexus meaning he didn't.
>fails to apply that logic to talzin
Logical fallacy is a logical fallacy, Beni. And again, if they're both exerting full power and failing to overcome the other, they're going to tap into anything they can. Stop arguing for the sake of arguing and admit defeat, you're not exactly helping your reputation.
You might, as you're argument is only valid if you can prove Talzin matched Sidious.
Which I already have.
EDIT: I see your point, could you provide these sources though?Am I allowed to use Aurbere's trademark "soon"? I'm on my phone and nowhere near any of my sourcebooks, or the computer which stores a lot of my torrents.
They are perfectly upright here:And then Talzin appears hunched as if reeling. Difference is pretty clear.
No, Talzin is hunched as if she's giving it her all. Exactly like Sidious is:
Noting that this panel is between the two you showed, perhaps indicating they both stepped up their power.
Sel, I assumed you were joking at first, but it would now appear that you have indeed forgotten the time you accused me of not reading the comic, and I corrected you. I do so again.That sad no need for an ad hominem any how. Try to be civil. 👆
Not sure what you mean though, the point is Talzin lost the contest of lightning as soon as Dooku intervened, so it's not proof she can contend with their combined raw output irregardless of Maul's involvement, which she could have only benefited from.
Except you've time and again proven you lack a basic understanding of the comic. If you've read it, I implore you to read it again.
And I'm not sure what that mahooooooosive Strawman is for either. Why does it matter if she lost when Dooku intervened? No one is saying Talzin > Sidious + Dooku, we're arguing that a Dathomir Talzin is an equal to TCW Sidious. Perhaps you should stop throwing out entirely irrelevant points in an attempt to distract from the fact you're rapidly losing ground 😬
Originally posted by SelenialActually I was taking into account when Dooku is told he is at the "heart of Mother Talzin's power" - the ensuing ritual implying of the Force. That and its the only fathomable reason Dooku would be brought to Dathomir. On top of that we have Talzin herself saying she operates best on Dathomir, and she was fighting for her life against an opponent she is herself in awe of.
> implies there's nothing saying he draws on the Nexus meaning he didn't.
>fails to apply that logic to talzinLogical fallacy is a logical fallacy, Beni. And again, if they're both exerting full power and failing to overcome the other, they're going to tap into anything they can. Stop arguing for the sake of arguing and admit defeat, you're not exactly helping your reputation.
As for the second part, that would only be the case if we accept your version of the events i.e. that Sidious was stalemating until Dooku's intervension. Way I see it Talzin not only never had the advantage, but Sidious quickly got the upper hand, it was only a matter of time until she died.
Also more ad hominem? I'll certainly withdraw from the debate if this keeps up, if that's your aim.
Am I allowed to use Aurbere's trademark "soon"? I'm on my phone and nowhere near any of my sourcebooks, or the computer which stores a lot of my torrents.I am genuinely interested so yes.
No, Talzin is hunched as if she's giving it her all. Exactly like Sidious is:Except Talzin's leaning back, if not looking as if she'll fall over, while Sidious is leaning forward. And yeah I'm aware, which is why I interpreted it as Sidious pressing the attack, and Talzin recoiling.Noting that this panel is between the two you showed, perhaps indicating they both stepped up their power.
And I'm not sure what that mahooooooosive Strawman is for either. Why does it matter if she lost when Dooku intervened? No one is saying Talzin > Sidious + Dooku, we're arguing that a Dathomir Talzin is an equal to TCW Sidious. Perhaps you should stop throwing out entirely irrelevant points in an attempt to distract from the fact you're rapidly losing ground 😬In which it's irrelevant - the fact that we are not even discussing it as this point does yes, makes it even more irrelevant. That tends to happen when you cherry pick. 👆
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Actually I was taking into account when Dooku is told he is at the "heart of Mother Talzin's power" - the ensuing ritual implying of the Force. That and its the only fathomable reason Dooku would be brought to Dathomir. On top of that we have Talzin herself saying she operates best on Dathomir, and she was fighting for her life against an opponent she is herself in awe of.As for the second part, that would only be the case if we accept your version of the events i.e. that Sidious was stalemating until Dooku's intervension. Way I see it Talzin not only never had the advantage, but Sidious quickly got the upper hand, it was only a matter of time until she died.
Also more ad hominem? I'll certainly withdraw from the debate if this keeps up, if that's your aim.
Except Talzin's leaning back, if not looking as if she'll fall over, while Sidious is leaning forward. And yeah I'm aware, which is why I interpreted it as Sidious pressing the attack, and Talzin recoiling.
I rotated the image for you.
Please. Tell me more how Talzin is leaning back and about to fall over. I'm really interested in your argument 👆 🙄
In which it's irrelevant - the fact that we are not even discussing it as this point does yes, makes it even more irrelevant. That tends to happen when you cherry pick. 👆
So what you're saying is Maul = Dooku perfectly in force powers? Because unless that's true, your ridiculous supposition is entirely irrelevant to the debate at hand, as I have said. Numerous times.