Originally posted by appletonia
Grievous is not the same entity he once was. Defeating him is no longer impressive at all.
Perhaps, but considering that TCW is also a part of legends canon, we've got no choice but to take everything into consideration.
Anoon Bondara was an extremely skilled swordsman but there really isnt anything to suggest he was remotely powerful in the Force, and that's usually what makes the difference.
Power in the Force rarely matters. Roan Shryne was a man with little talent in the Force yet he did well against 19BBY(four months after rots) Vader
Qui-Gon Jinn was an Obi-Wan type. Very skilled swordsman, powerful, but he's simply not powerful enough to put him among the elite. Same with Obi-Wan.
Perhaps, but Jinn's stated to have "perfect" mastery of the Force and is thought to be powerful by Darth Sidious.
And as for Obi-Wan, by 42BBY(i believe it's that year) A.K.A at the age of 13 he had already become a master of lightsaber combat(Fact file stated this) not to mentioned that by the time of the last Jedi Apprentice novel(in which Obi-Wan is nineteen), Qui-Gon, i believe, stated that Obi-Wan had grown more powerful than he.
How well did he do against Sidious?
Arguably good. depends on how you view it.
What are the circumstances behind his capturing of Dooku?
I've no idea.
You say that he took on Mace Windu (and Aayla) for an unspecified amount of time; did he get to demonstrate anything at all that can enable a proper comparison between him and Mace?
Hard to tell, we mostly see them clash then some filler is happens and then Maul's warriors interrupt the battle.
For the record, I'm not saying he isn't skilled. I simply think there's a world of difference between say, Yoda and Count Dooku, and likewise a world of difference between say, Count Dooku and Obi-Wan, and I personally have Maul at around Obi-Wan level as it stands (though maybe I'm underestimating him).
Understood, I myself have no idea where Maul ranks, so no stress with that.
[b]Revan's a largely unknown quantity last time I checked, but the evidence generally suggests that he was an incredibly powerful Force User on a par with the likes of Exar Kun and Bane, and if there is anybody in Maul's era that's on that level it's the Yodas and the Palpatines, not the Qui-Gons and Obi-Wans.
Eh, maybe.
Originally posted by Selenial
TCW is canon canon, not Legends Canon, Fated.
It's part of both canon, is it not? Seeing as it's got several novels and comic spin offs(Clone Wars: Wild Space for example) I always thought that was the case, to be honest.
But, that's a different discussion altogether, Sel. I don't wanna derail the new guy's thread. 😛
Originally posted by appletonia
Revan's a largely unknown quantity last time I checked, but the evidence generally suggests that he was an incredibly powerful Force User on a par with the likes of Exar Kun and Bane, and if there is anybody in Maul's era that's on that level it's the Yodas and the Palpatines, not the Qui-Gons and Obi-Wans.
Yep
>Most powerful champion of the Jedi Order at the end of the Mandalorian Wars
>Considered by Vrook to have the Force flow through him like no student the Order's seen. ****er was a master during the great hunt and possibly Great Sith War and would have been on Exis Station to gauge people like Thon/Sunrider/etc
>Surik considered his Mandalorian War self to have a greater command of the Force than any she'd ever met
>Traya's hyperbolic heart of the Force shit which exists to nod to his ass being an extremely powerful Force user.
Then you just watch the cognitive dissonance waft off posters as they sputter "b-but feats"
You then laugh as you point to other featless, yet powerful, characters from other franchises (Yamcha's a golden example) and wonder why powerscaling is such a foreign idea.
Originally posted by appletonia
Revan's a largely unknown quantity last time I checked, but the evidence generally suggests that he was an incredibly powerful Force User on a par with the likes of Exar Kun and Bane, and if there is anybody in Maul's era that's on that level it's the Yodas and the Palpatines, not the Qui-Gons and Obi-Wans.
But more or less agreed on the Revan part.
Truthfully, I am fairly certain ALL of DARTH Revan's (or for that matter possibly ALL of his incarnations) lightsaber-based victories are against opponents who we know little to nothing about skill-wise, aside from what an individual can infer about his opponenets personally which STILL leaves a large disparity in people's opinions to be had. Now if say a statement was released putting Revan just around Dooku level? Then he would be a MUCH more well-rounded character. From what we see of him in his later incarnations he is a a VERY prolific Force-User as far as offensive abilities. Largely TK but it could be logically inferred he at LEAST possessed a basic level skill in Force Lightning. (I would say it is LIKELY, given the tier of force-users he inhabits, to be above that. I also do not own many novels or EU material beyond what I can find on the internet, which given that I have to KNOW about it to look it up, makes it problematic)
Anyways, people hearken back to him defeating Mandalore the Ultimate in single combat. With the way the statement was made and pictures of it HIGHLY suggesting it was solely on his skill with a saber. An excellent feat. HOwever, what do we know of Mandalore's skill in melee combat? We can assume he is a leg above regular Mandolorians simply by being their feared leader, sure.
Essentially I personally feel all Revan needs to be MUCH more viable of a debatable character, are a couple saber-based feats alone that are explicitly stated to be such.
That being said I would still give Revan > Maul but this incarnation ONLY because of his more powerful, and active, use of offensive force abilities. (Not saying that Revan is MORE active in his use of force abilities per say, but that he is at least just as active with his as Maul is, with more powerful abilities.)
However, I do concur he would indeed stop at Vader.
Originally posted by Vixas
Truthfully, I am fairly certain ALL of DARTH Revan's (or for that matter possibly ALL of his incarnations) lightsaber-based victories are against opponents who we know little to nothing about skill-wise, aside from what an individual can infer about his opponenets personally which STILL leaves a large disparity in people's opinions to be had.
An excellent feat. HOwever, what do we know of Mandalore's skill in melee combat? We can assume he is a leg above regular Mandolorians simply by being their feared leader, sure.
- being the greatest Mandalorian of a culture of warriors that rivals and fights the Jedi.
- defeating Malak, the second most powerful Jedi in the galaxy, in a single attack.
- being regarded centuries later throughout Mandalorian culture as the greatest Mandalore.
You should check out http://www.comicvine.com/profile/darthant66/blog/revan-respect-thread/95278/. Scroll down to the "Combat Abilities" section and read the feats that start out with "(Darth Revan...)." They should be the first dozen or something.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
That's a pretty awful thinking process then - and honestly outright wrong.- being the greatest Mandalorian of a culture of warriors that rivals and fights the Jedi.
- defeating Malak, the second most powerful Jedi in the galaxy, in a single attack.
- being regarded centuries later throughout Mandalorian culture as the greatest Mandalore.You should check out http://www.comicvine.com/profile/darthant66/blog/revan-respect-thread/95278/. Scroll down to the "Combat Abilities" sections and read the feats that start out with "(Darth Revan). They should be the first dozen or something.
All I meant with my "awful thinking process" is that information on exactly HOW fast, strong, cunning, etc Mandalore was would alter Revan's feat considerably. For example if it was stated as Canon that Mandalore was as good as Kit Fisto at melee combat, and Revan defeated him with relatively minimal exertion, we now have a "bar" to go off of. As you correctly pointed out, indeed he is the leader of Mandalorians who kill Jedi, which is what makes it an excellent feat and most can/would assume that means he is a very skilled combatant. However without knowing explicitly HOW good, people would hesitate to place him above X-rate of skill, with X varying based on people's opinions.
As you will probably find out here sooner or later, most EU character's don't get the luxuries of having everything spelled out for them.
Implications, assumptions, comparisons, educated guesses, and power-scalling is pretty much needed for all the Ancient Sith and Jedi.
If we knew exactly how powerful they are, there wouldn't be a need to debate it.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
As you will probably find out here sooner or later, most EU character's don't get the luxuries of having everything spelled out for them.
Implications, assumptions, comparisons, educated guesses, and power-scalling is pretty much needed for [b]all the Ancient Sith and Jedi.If we knew exactly how powerful they are, there wouldn't be a need to debate it. [/B]
Oh I know. I am just saying it WOULD make things clearer. Also the "debate" perfectly entailing the varying opinions I mentioned. Anyways yes, I do think Darth Revan takes this.
Well, since I'm in a somewhat helpful mood today, here:
HOW fast
So pretty f***ing fast. 😉
strong
So pretty f***ing strong. 😉
cunning
So pretty f***ing devious. 😉
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In reality though, all we need to know is the following:
- being the greatest Mandalorian of a culture of warriors that rivals and fights the Jedi.
- defeating Malak, the second most powerful Jedi in the galaxy, in a single attack.
- being regarded centuries later throughout Mandalorian culture as the greatest Mandalore.
... to gauge Revan's feat. And we gauge it as being a pretty damn impressive display. 👆
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
It's part of both canon, is it not? Seeing as it's got several novels and comic spin offs(Clone Wars: Wild Space for example) I always thought that was the case, to be honest.But, that's a different discussion altogether, Sel. I don't wanna derail the new guy's thread. 😛
Anyway, falls at 4 or 5.