Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Is it really the same, though?Natural transformation and the artificial one?
Dragoon has a point, maybe they were equals in SD saga, but certainly not before that.
Goku wouldn't have a tail if not for the unnatural de-aging, though.
Adult Saiyans lose the ability to regrow tails at a certain age, according to Toriyama. And note Vegeta lost his tail when he depowered from SSJ4, unlike Goku.
Originally posted by Galan007
SSJ4 isn't a static multiplier. It brings the user to their utmost limits--in that regard, it's similar to Elder Kaioshin's ritual. In Goku's case, the SSJ4 ritual just happened to be at least 10x SSJ3.I guess my point is that since Vegeta was demonstrably weaker than Goku in base/SSJ/SSJ2(see his battle with Super 17), and with SSJ4 he matched a powered-up SSJ4 Goku, it would mean Vegeta got a much larger boost from SSJ4 than Goku... Because you're right: SSJ4 Goku=SSJ4 Vegeta--that's why they were able to use Metamoran fusion without adjusting their ki beforehand.
Um... That whole post was just pure speculation. Terrible.
In GT cannon though, it was stated that Vegeta DIDN'T reach SSJ4. He actually went SSJ5. Bulma stated this, and explained that it was because the Blutz waves would amp him so much.
So it was really SSJ5 Vegeta, fusing with SSJ4 Goku. This was stated. And in that case, it puts SSJ5 Vegeta as SSJ4 Goku's EQUAL. Which is ridiculous, given that SSJ4 was FAR OVER a 50X boost to SSJ3. But we don't know SSJ5's multiplier, so it's just speculation from there.
But in regards to the thread, Goku would win. Super 17 was already severely weakened from his fight with SSJ4 Goku, but base Goku STILL used Super Dragon fist to punch THROUGH him, and finished him off with a kamehameha to the back. That feat alone should put him RIDICULOUSLY above the other Z-fighters that Super 17 ONE-SHOTTED, while they were all at full power, and Super 17 was suppressed.
So basically, Base Goku > SSJ2 Vegeta. And the rest, SSJ2 Mystic Gohan, Majuub, SSJ Goten and SSJ Trunks, were all basically non-factors in the fight. Vegeta was the only one who could fight back, and even he got pwned. SSJ1 Goku utterly DOMINATED Super 17, until he powered him with like 20 kamehameha waves, and a SSJ4 10X kamehameha.
Originally posted by SSJGGogetaLol? Bulma joked(while she and Vegeta were watching a replay of Baby-Vegeta vs. Goku) that Vegeta might be able to eventually reach SSJ5--but first they made it a goal to have Vegeta reach SSJ4, and finally be equal to Goku... Which is what he did during the Shadow Dragon saga when he went SSJ4.
Um... That whole post was just pure speculation. Terrible.In GT cannon though, it was stated that Vegeta DIDN'T reach SSJ4. He actually went SSJ5. Bulma stated this, and explained that it was because the Blutz waves would amp him so much.
So it was really SSJ5 Vegeta, fusing with SSJ4 Goku. This was stated. And in that case, it puts SSJ5 Vegeta as SSJ4 Goku's EQUAL. Which is ridiculous, given that SSJ4 was FAR OVER a 50X boost to SSJ3. But we don't know SSJ5's multiplier, so it's just speculation from there.
What I stated is irrefutable fact, actually. SSJ4 doesn't glean a static boost/multiplier like the other forms of SSJ do--it brings out all of a Saiyan's dormant power. Elder Kaioshin explicitly stated this.
Originally posted by cdtm
Goku beat Super 17 because of tactics, not strength. When he was absorbing #18's energy, he became vulnerable.Vegeta could have done the same thing, if he figured it out.
What? Goku dominated Super 17 by being ridiculously stronger. Proving that SSJ1 Goku was FAAAAAR above SSJ2 Vegeta. So he was FAAAAAR OVER 2X SSJ2 Vegeta. Meaning that if he was just 5X times stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta, then Kaioken X10 Goku would be EQUAL to SSJ1 Vegeta. So Goku using Kaioken over X10 would be stronger than SSJ1 Vegeta.
What this all boils down to is that GT base Goku is somewhere around 10 times stronger than GT base Vegeta. Which would make each of his forms 10 times stronger as well. And it means that Kaioken X20 Goku would be around 2 times stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta.
Bearing Kaioken though, Goku loses. With it though, he wins. Easily.
Originally posted by Galan007
Lol? Bulma joked(while she and Vegeta were watching a replay of Baby-Vegeta vs. Goku) that Vegeta might be able to eventually reach SSJ5--but first they made it a goal to have Vegeta reach SSJ4, and finally be equal to Goku... Which is what he did during the Shadow Dragon saga when he went SSJ4.What I stated is irrefutable fact, actually. SSJ4 doesn't glean a static boost/multiplier like the other forms of SSJ do--it brings out all of a Saiyan's dormant power. Elder Kaioshin explicitly stated this.
You're remembering that very incorrectly. I don't have a way to find the episodes anymore, because the website I used to watch DB on got deleted. I used dbz.tv, and it doesn't work anymore, so I can't prove it to you, unless you have a website with the episodes.
And when did Elder Kai state that? I don't remember that, but it has been a while since I've watched GT, so I guess I can be remembering this a little wrong.
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
😆 😆
Keep laughing. That's what I, and everyone else on here, do when you post. 👆
Originally posted by SSJGGogetaKeep laughing. That's what I, and everyone else on here, do when you post. 👆
Like Galan laughing at you're stupidity here?
Originally posted by Galan007
Lol? Bulma joked(while she and Vegeta were watching a replay of Baby-Vegeta vs. Goku) that Vegeta might be able to eventually reach SSJ5--but first they made it a goal to have Vegeta reach SSJ4, and finally be equal to Goku... Which is what he did during the Shadow Dragon saga when he went SSJ4.What I stated is irrefutable fact, actually. SSJ4 doesn't glean a static boost/multiplier like the other forms of SSJ do--it brings out all of a Saiyan's dormant power. Elder Kaioshin explicitly stated this.
Originally posted by SSJGGogetaYou are misremembering. I have all the episodes downloaded, and I literally just watched the scene in question. It played out exactly like I said.
You're remembering that very incorrectly. I don't have a way to find the episodes anymore, because the website I used to watch DB on got deleted. I used dbz.tv, and it doesn't work anymore, so I can't prove it to you, unless you have a website with the episodes.
Bulma mentions that Vegeta might be able to reach SSJ5 eventually, but first Vegeta wants to concentrate on ascending to SSJ4 so he can finally be even with Goku again... Which is what happened in the Shadow Dragon saga--Bulma, Goku, Vegeta, Pan, etc. confirmed that he was a SSJ4. Don't even know why in the heck you'd question that, tbh. 😕
Originally posted by SSJGGogetaElder Kaioshin made that statement when he first explained SSJ4 to Goku.
And when did Elder Kai state that? I don't remember that, but it has been a while since I've watched GT, so I guess I can be remembering this a little wrong.
Originally posted by Galan007
You are misremembering. I have all the episodes downloaded, and I literally just watched the scene in question. It played out exactly like I said.Bulma mentions that Vegeta might be able to reach SSJ5 eventually, but first Vegeta wants to concentrate on ascending to SSJ4 so he can finally be even with Goku again... Which is what happened in the Shadow Dragon saga--Bulma, Goku, Vegeta, Pan, etc. confirmed that he was a [b]SSJ4
. Don't even know why in the heck you'd question that, tbh. 😕Elder Kaioshin made that statement when he first explained SSJ4 to Goku. [/B]
Damn, I was hoping you could post somewhere to watch the episodes.
But I don't have any way to watch the scenes, or post them, so I guess I'll just concede here. I was only using that as support anyways.
Kaioken X20 Goku should still be heftily stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta, going by the multipliers alone.
Originally posted by SSJGGogetaYeah, I downloaded all episodes of DB/Z/GT+films when the sites I used to stream from became progressively more unreliable.
Damn, I was hoping you could post somewhere to watch the episodes.But I don't have any way to watch the scenes, or post them, so I guess I'll just concede here. I was only using that as support anyways.
No worries! 🙂
Originally posted by SSJGGogetaI agree. GT Goku was just so much stronger than any of his compatriots that it's staggering, really.
Kaioken X20 Goku should still be heftily stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta, going by the multipliers alone.
The power discrepancy between Goku and the others became abundantly clear when Super 17 showed up.
Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, I downloaded all episodes of DB/Z/GT+films when the sites I used to stream from became progressively more unreliable.No worries! 🙂
I agree. GT Goku was just so much stronger than any of his compatriots that it's staggering, really.
The power discrepancy between Goku and the others became abundantly clear when Super 17 showed up.
Pfft, wish I had done that, lol. I just never expected DBZ to become so popular that all the sites that streamed it would disappear.
Yeah though, that was one of the reasons why I liked GT, but why a lot of people hated it, lol. It really made Goku the absolute star of the show. Basically to the point where if Goku couldn't handle something, then you're shit outta luck, because no one else has a sliver of a chance in hell. Until Vegeta got SSJ4. And even then, he didn't do much, other than fuse with Goku.
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Damn, I was hoping you could post somewhere to watch the episodes.But I don't have any way to watch the scenes, or post them, so I guess I'll just concede here. I was only using that as support anyways.
Kaioken X20 Goku should still be heftily stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta, going by the multipliers alone.
Google, man. There's lots of streaming sites now. I even found a place that has Transformers: Victory and Masterforce that supports mobile devices.
Spoiler:are good places to start.
Animeflavor and Kissanime
Or there's Youtube channels, if you don't mind.them dubbed and cropped (To the point where Goku's head is sometimes the only part visable)