Republican Primary Debates

Started by Knife18 pages

Originally posted by Newjak
Okay this I can work with.

Here is the number of people that would have been wrongfully executed had they only been able to appeal for ten years.

1) Wilbert Lee
2) Freddie Pitts
3) Lawyer Johnson
4) Joseph Green Brown
5) Randall Dale Adams
6) James Richardson
7) Gary Nelson
8) James Robison
9) Robert Charles Cruz
10) Verneal Jimerson
11) Dennis Williams
12) Roberto Miranda
13) Troy Lee Jones
14) Ricardo Aldape Guerra
15) Benjamin Harris
16) Curtis Kyles
17) Anthony Porter
18) Steven Smith
19) Ronald Williamson
20) Eric Clemmons
21) Earl Washington
22) Frank Lee Smith
23) Michael Graham
24) Albert Burrell
25) Oscar Lee Morris
26) Peter Limone
27) Charles Fain
28) Juan Roberto Melendez
29) Aaron Patterson
30) Madison Hobley
31) Leroy Orange
32) Stanley Howard
33) Rudolph Holton
34) John Thompson
35) Timothy Howard
36) Gary Lamar James
37) Joseph Amrine
38) Nicholas Yarris
39) Gordon Steidl
40) Laurence Adams
41) Ernest Ray Willis
42) Derrick Jamison
43) Harold Wilson
44) Curtis McCarty
45) Michael McCormick
46) Jonathon Hoffman
47) Kennedy Brewer
48) Glen Chapman
49) Levon Jones
50) Michael Blair
51) Nathson Fields
52) Paul House
53) Ronald Kitchen
54) Yancy Douglas
55) Paris Powell
56) Anthony Graves
57) Gussie Vann
58) Joe D'Ambrosio
59) Damon Thibodeaux
60) Seth Penalver
61) Reginald Griffin
62) Glenn Ford
63) Henry McCollum
64) Leon Brown
65) Ricky Jackson
66) Wiley Bridgeman
67) Kwame Ajamu
68) Debra Milke
69) Anthony Hinton
70) Willie Manning
71) Lawrence William Lee

Since 1976 there have been 1412 executions in the united states . So you're saying you're okay with a roughly 1% increase in wrongful executions in that time frame for the ability to streamline the appeals process to what you think is a reasonable time frame.

For what? Oh yeah to act as a better deterrent to crime. Oh wait a number of countries without the death penalty have a laughably lower violent crime rate than the United States. So as a crime deterrent it doesn't seem to work well or even be needed in that matter.

So grieving families get their justice quicker. So what you're saying is it's okay to kill innocent people so long as families get some sense of satisfaction over watching another person die. Even though there are studies that show the death penalty can take a huge toll on families from the length of time they have to deal with the process to even discontent inside of the family over the death penalty. The only way I could see the death penalty truly helping the family is if that death somehow brought back the person they lost.

I have yet to hear any good reason to keep the death penalty considering the risk of killing innocents versus potential rewards it gives us. Which at this point the rewards seem to be pretty much zero.

I agree totally, it's barbaric..... America truly is a hell hole.

Some nice information being presented here, off-topic as it is at this point.

I'm very much in agreement with the "rehabilitation over punishment" angle. I may arrive at that conclusion via different means than DDM and Newjak, but the end opinion is roughly the same.

Originally posted by dadudemon
The fundamental flaw with your logic, psmith, is that you think that "justice" is important. That's barbaric thinking. You think we should bust out the old "eye for an eye" Code of Hammurabi. That's barbaric. That's violent ancient human bullshit.

When people like you stop viewing incarceration as a place to punish people but, instead, a place to rehabilitate people, then we can start to make meaningful changes to combating crime. I noticed you didn't address recidivism, at all: the fundamental problem in the US Criminal System. It's because we are focused on "punishment" and not rehabilitation.

The reason you separate a criminal from the public is because the person represents a danger to the public. If a person commits a victim-less crime, they should never ever be incarcerated. Ever. The point of criminal rehabilitation is to reintegrate that human back into society and make them a positive contributor to society (instead of a drain).

You have a fundamentally flawed understanding of how crime should be addressed. You are literally part of the problem with you views. Until people like you can be squashed from having any relevancy in how the US addresses crime, we will continue to wallow in fetid, putrescent, barbarism.

And how Christian is it to think, "String him up and murder the **** out of him!!! Raawwr!"? Doesn't that strike you as very anti-Christlike? For a "Christian Nation", we are awfully barbaric and unforgiving.

Also, notice I specifically said unrepentant criminals? Because, yeah, if they are not going to reintegrate and we have irrefutable evidence that they committed the crime, that's when the "death penalty" should be used (for things like mass murderers and serial rapists).

Also, why can not the idea of "justice" also be that the criminal has the serve the community in incarceration? Why does your idea of justice have to be punishment in an inhumane prison?

Do you see where I'm going with all of this? Your idea of how we should address crime is actually part of why we continue to have crime. It is also quite barbaric. The US, in general, needs to shift their way of thinking.

Also, this is one topic I'm not going to be nice about. If you say stupid shit about wanting to perpetuate homicide, I'll treat what you say like the stupid shit it is. Take a step back from your words and realize what you're saying: you want to kill people and you wholly endorse it. "This person murdered someone. So let's murder him back! ha! That'll teach 'em!"

I agree with this assessment of things.

Originally posted by dadudemon
The fundamental flaw with your logic, psmith, is that you think that "justice" is important. That's barbaric thinking. You think we should bust out the old "eye for an eye" Code of Hammurabi. That's barbaric. That's violent ancient human bullshit.

When people like you stop viewing incarceration as a place to punish people but, instead, a place to rehabilitate people, then we can start to make meaningful changes to combating crime. I noticed you didn't address recidivism, at all: the fundamental problem in the US Criminal System. It's because we are focused on "punishment" and not rehabilitation.

The reason you separate a criminal from the public is because the person represents a danger to the public. If a person commits a victim-less crime, they should never ever be incarcerated. Ever. The point of criminal rehabilitation is to reintegrate that human back into society and make them a positive contributor to society (instead of a drain).

You have a fundamentally flawed understanding of how crime should be addressed. You are literally part of the problem with you views. Until people like you can be squashed from having any relevancy in how the US addresses crime, we will continue to wallow in fetid, putrescent, barbarism.

And how Christian is it to think, "String him up and murder the **** out of him!!! Raawwr!"? Doesn't that strike you as very anti-Christlike? For a "Christian Nation", we are awfully barbaric and unforgiving.

Also, notice I specifically said unrepentant criminals? Because, yeah, if they are not going to reintegrate and we have irrefutable evidence that they committed the crime, that's when the "death penalty" should be used (for things like mass murderers and serial rapists).

Also, why can not the idea of "justice" also be that the criminal has the serve the community in incarceration? Why does your idea of justice have to be punishment in an inhumane prison?

Do you see where I'm going with all of this? Your idea of how we should address crime is actually part of why we continue to have crime. It is also quite barbaric. The US, in general, needs to shift their way of thinking.

Also, this is one topic I'm not going to be nice about. If you say stupid shit about wanting to perpetuate homicide, I'll treat what you say like the stupid shit it is. Take a step back from your words and realize what you're saying: you want to kill people and you wholly endorse it. "This person murdered someone. So let's murder him back! ha! That'll teach 'em!"


Great post, DDD. I'll point out though that psmith is Jewish, so Old Testament style eye for an eye justice might be very consistent with his religious/ethical background.

It's DDM, not DDD....da dude mon ... not dadu demon...I happen to worship the Dadu Demon and I find this offensive to my spiritual believes...

Apologies to Dadude, and to Bardock's god.

Dadu Demon sounds hardcore. DDM should change the capitalization in his user name.

Also, it offends Bardock, so bonus points.

The fundamental flaw with your logic, psmith, is that you think that "justice" is important. That's barbaric thinking. You think we should bust out the old "eye for an eye" Code of Hammurabi. That's barbaric. That's violent ancient human bullshit.

Hold on. You're pointing out that I have a fundamental flaw in my argument and your response is "that's barbaric"? That's not an argument, that's you making an opinion and passing it off as fact. If I repeat what you said with "you think rehabilitation is more important than justice", and proceed to provide zero reasons as to how or why, we're back to square one. Furthermore, repeatedly saying "this is barbaric" without explaining just how it's barbaric doesn't make it more valid. I also don't know why you mentioned "eye for an eye" or Hammurabi or anything else. So lets agree that your first paragraph lacks any kind of evidence or argument, and is mostly littered with an opinion, tautology, and superfluous text. Moving on

When people like you stop viewing incarceration as a place to punish people but, instead, a place to rehabilitate people, then we can start to make meaningful changes to combating crime. I noticed you didn't address recidivism, at all: the fundamental problem in the US Criminal System. It's because we are focused on "punishment" and not rehabilitation.

And when people like you start understanding that incarceration IS a punishment for crimes people have committed (illegal activities), then we can have a meaningful discussion. My thinking isn't a fundamental problem with the criminal justice system because your point ignores the fact that we need to stop crime before it starts. How exactly are we going to combat crime by rehabilitating criminals? Shouldn't we start trying to combat crime before it starts? And you keep mentioning rehabilitation. Rehab is reserved for people who have a chance to make a positive contribution to society once they get out. How does this effect life without parole? Or are you subtly advocating getting rid of that as well? I always have a problem when someone who pretends to be enlightened equates change with progress and that's what you seem to be doing. You're looking to just change something and not addressing the proper issues.

The reason you separate a criminal from the public is because the person represents a danger to the public. If a person commits a victim-less crime, they should never ever be incarcerated. Ever. The point of criminal rehabilitation is to reintegrate that human back into society and make them a positive contributor to society (instead of a drain).

That is A reason, as in one of many reasons. Once again, your argument is littered with tautologies. And I have no idea why you mentioned the second part. We didn't discuss non violent crime but it appears you want zero incarceration for nonviolent crime. How about DUIs or DWIs? Your change is less change and more insanity.

And how Christian is it to think, "String him up and murder the **** out of him!!! Raawwr!"? Doesn't that strike you as very anti-Christlike? For a "Christian Nation", we are awfully barbaric and unforgiving.
More unintelligible chatter and another tautology. Actually I take that back. This is a meaningless, emotional post. Now you're somehow comparing 21st century capital punishment with a lengthy appeals process to "string him up, RAWR"! No, that doesn't fly. Also, why are you bringing religion up? I haven't.

Also, notice I specifically said unrepentant criminals? Because, yeah, if they are not going to reintegrate and we have irrefutable evidence that they committed the crime, that's when the "death penalty" should be used (for things like mass murderers and serial rapists).

This is very ambiguous. How are you going to judge the repentant ones from the unrepentant? Do you have some kind of honor system? And how did we go from "maybe not death penalty" to "reintegrate"? That's going from one extreme to the other. The logical medium would be "life without parole". You're all over the place, dude.

Also, why can not the idea of "justice" also be that the criminal has the serve the community in incarceration? Why does your idea of justice have to be punishment in an inhumane prison?

Inhumane prison? That's tautology #3. What exactly is inhumane here? Going to prison? Prison conditions? The idea that a criminal can commit premeditated murder and let back into the population is insane. THAT is barbaric.

Do you see where I'm going with all of this? Your idea of how we should address crime is actually part of why we continue to have crime. It is also quite barbaric. The US, in general, needs to shift their way of thinking.

Tautology #4. I didn't "address" crime, I addressed first degree murder. You're full of strawmans today, seriously. Claiming how I think about first degree murderers somehow is responsible for why we have crime (not that you ever addressed preventing crime in the first place) is asinine.

Also, this is one topic I'm not going to be nice about. If you say stupid shit about wanting to perpetuate homicide, I'll treat what you say like the stupid shit it is. Take a step back from your words and realize what you're saying: you want to kill people and you wholly endorse it. "This person murdered someone. So let's murder him back! ha! That'll teach 'em!"

Tautology #5. Assuming you're calling capital punishment "homicide". Tautology #6 would be "lets murder him back." No DDM, you would have a point if I took the law into my own hands and did that. Your argument flies out the window when you have court and a lengthy appeals process.
Not to mention, that last part is more emotional nonsense.

I believe I've addressed all of your issues without any needing to exert efforts because I couldn't see substance between the various tautologies and strawmans. I'm not calling you dumb but you need to step your game up, stay on topic, and take emotion out of the equation.

Also, OV congrats on the confirmation bias 👆

How exactly are we going to combat crime by rehabilitating criminals?

By making it so said criminals don't go back to a life of crime after they're released. That's one way.

Some would argue that if you place a human being in a hellhole, they're prone to come out worse.

Interesting read: Texas prison population shrinks as rehabilitation programs take root

http://www.statesman.com/news/news/state-regional-govt-politics/texas-prison-population-shrinks-as-rehabilitatio-1/nRNRY/

Originally posted by Robtard
By making it so said criminals don't go back to a life of crime after they're released. That's one way.

Some would argue that if you place a human being in a hellhole, they're prone to come out worse.

Interesting read: Texas prison population shrinks as rehabilitation programs take root

http://www.statesman.com/news/news/state-regional-govt-politics/texas-prison-population-shrinks-as-rehabilitatio-1/nRNRY/

But rehabilitation for whom? I am not against rehabilitation, I thought I was making that clear. I am against it for certain crimes. And what you said addresses repeat crimes. The bigger answer is to stop them before they start.

For the love of sanity, psmith, if you are going to carry on this argument in those terms, would you get a grip about what the word 'tautology' means? You've reduced it to meaninglessness in your argument by using it in several different ways and I don't think you actually have a clear idea about the word at all.

Just throwing out terms like that with no solid basis is poor argument, which would not normally be enough for me to comment but the abuse of language has put me over the edge.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
For the love of sanity, psmith, if you are going to carry on this argument in those terms, would you get a grip about what the word 'tautology' means? You've reduced it to meaninglessness in your argument by using it in several different ways and I don't think you actually have a clear idea about the word at all.

Just throwing out terms like that with no solid basis is poor argument, which would not normally be enough for me to comment but the abuse of language has put me over the edge.

Invoking a tautology means inserting your own definition for something and then using that for your argument. For instance, I deem capital punishment to be barbaric, so since capital punishment is barbaric, we need to become a more civilized country and focus on rehabilitation. Thanks for pointing out my "poor" argument while ignoring the others, I can always count on you Ush 👆

Who the heck told you that was what a tautology is? I think you are confusing it with something else. Tautology is redundant description, like 'tall giant'. There is no possible circumstance where you can call 'inhumane prison' a tautology.

Yea I just looked at that example and I don't think I used it correctly for that particular line, but the rest are fine. I meant to say that calling a prison inhumane doesn't make it inhumane and that it seems that it's supposed to elicit an emotional response.

Tautology

Tautology in formal logic refers to a statement that must be true in every interpretation by its very construction. In rhetorical logic, it is an argument that utilizes circular reasoning, which means that the conclusion is also its own premise. Typically the premise is simply restated in the conclusion, without adding additional information or clarification. The structure of such arguments is A=B therefore A=B, although the premise and conclusion might be formulated differently so it is not immediately apparent as such. For example, saying that therapeutic touch works because it manipulates the life force is a tautology because the definition of therapeutic touch is the alleged manipulation (without touching) of the life force.

That is how i was using it in the other instances

Sorry, I really don't think it applies at all. Maybe if DDM had said something like "uncivilized barbarism', but even then it wouldn't be worth picking up.

So your argument is that he is assuming capital punishment is barbaric without having described why, though I actually think he has laid out some ideas of why he thinks that. Okidokey then.

Err, sorry, DDM isn;t doing what you just quoted there either. I really think you are having issues getting to grip there. Btw, that's not a very good description, because circular reasoning is quite separate from tautology.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Sorry, I really don't think it applies at all. Maybe if DDM had said something like "uncivilized barbarism', but even then it wouldn't be worth picking up.

So your argument is that he is assuming capital punishment is barbaric without having described why, though I actually think he has laid out some ideas of why he thinks that. Okidokey then.

It applies Ush (I think) in the example I laid out for you. And I don't see the "ideas" as much as an appeal to emotion, comparing capital punishment to Christian hanging, something about preventing crime, etc.

Err, sorry, DDM isn;t doing what you just quoted there either. I really think you are having issues getting to grip there. Btw, that's not a very good description, because circular reasoning is quite separate from tautology.
Which part? (In reference to DDM)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tautology_(rhetoric)

I don't even know what you mean by 'which part' Incidentally, wiki's definition of rhetorical tautology is possibly one of the worse ones I've ever seen- I see the talk page is contemptuous; it does not appear to make any sense, though it is also trying to distinguish circular reasoning from tautology.

I think DDM was quite clear in saying he thought capital punishment was about an obsession with justice and not actually trying to deal with crime in a way helpful to society.

But he's not being circular or tautological. He's not saying 'capital punishment is barbaric because it is', or the like. You simply don't agree with his reasoning.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
I don't even know what you mean by 'which part' Incidentally, wiki's definition of rhetorical tautology is possibly one of the worse ones I've ever seen- I see the talk page is contemptuous; it does not appear to make any sense, though it is also trying to distinguish circular reasoning from tautology.

I think DDM was quite clear in saying he thought capital punishment was about an obsession with justice and not actually trying to deal with crime in a way helpful to society.

But he's not being circular or tautological. He's not saying 'capital punishment is barbaric because it is', or the like. You simply don't agree with his reasoning.

Ok, he's saying "capital punishment is barbaric because it is", so what reasoning am I disagreeing with? There is no reasoning. He's using his own definitions (since I think capital punishment is barbaric) to fill in the rest of his argument (we need t become a more civilized society and seek rehabilitation). Except he's not arguing about capital punishment but justice (I think?). But earlier he supported capiltal punishment under certain conditions so if he does support capital punishment under certain conditions and capital punishment is justice, then he supports justice (except when he just equated it with barbarism). So like I said, his argument is all over the place.

Originally posted by psmith81992
Ok, he's saying "capital punishment is barbaric because it is", so what reasoning am I disagreeing with? There is no reasoning. He's using his own definitions (since I think capital punishment is barbaric) to fill in the rest of his argument (we need t become a more civilized society and seek rehabilitation). Except he's not arguing about capital punishment but justice (I think?). But earlier he supported capiltal punishment under certain conditions so if he does support capital punishment under certain conditions and capital punishment is justice, then he supports justice (except when he just equated it with barbarism). So like I said, his argument is all over the place.

It is clearly barbaric as others have pointed out and justified, with reasoned logical arguments.