Is God's moral above humans?

But he's not perfect though. Perfect people do not rain down fire and brimstone for any reason save to save their own life.

Since again, we can only go by our definition of perfect, and a mass murderer isn't perfect. A guy who kills people for breaking arbitrary rules isn't perfect. Doesn't matter if he can create a universe, we go by the morals we have, and by our own morals God isn't perfect or good.

Again keyword is by our own morals. Otherwise topic is pointless, we can't debate some other "higher level" of morals here, we debate what we know.

The fact that he is perfect and all knowing and we are not disqualifies you for giving reasons for his imperfection, because you deem it wrong and I'm not sure you've done due diligence on bible explanations. Again I stress that we cannot understand a perfect being and can only speculate on his actions. However, I think one has to be well versed biblically to argue your points.

Also simply claiming God's laws are arbitrary is nothing but a simple opinion. I don't think theyre arbitrary at all, im fact just the opposite.

Originally posted by Surtur
The problem is this topic is about morality, thus we can only judge it by the morality we know. In which God is a mass murderer, a manipulator, and a whole bunch of other stuff. So the topic itself is flawed, we can only judge morality as WE know it. So it makes no sense to go the route of "dude is above morality because power". At least it makes no sense in a topic trying to talk about morality.

It's also flawed because we can judge God in the good/bad things that are humanly possible but it's absurd to judge him on what is humanly impossible. The second part is essential to actually accept him as a God at all. So yeah, all in all the debate is horribly muddled.

Originally posted by Surtur
I also have more or less the same view as Bardock. Power doesn't mean shit to me, I don't care how powerful someone is, it doesn't put them above anything. If you act like a dick you are a dick, no matter if you are all powerful or not. You don't get to cop out shitty behavior with "I can create a universe so shit don't apply to me". A spade is a spade, no matter *what* they can do.

Again, is only sensible not to vow your head simply because of conventional power or influence.

I'd like to add that the religious reverence towards God (in the omnipotent dreator sense, I'm not targeting the christian God specifically in this argument) is more about the nature of said power than the sheer quantity of its influence. God is not only someone who influences the universe, he makes literal truth. Being against such being is essentially being against the universe itself including yourself. But of course we are allowed to be self-destructive and self-hating, our "souls" (word chosen to fit the narrative of religion) are capable of existing in contradiction and denial. If you can't deny the evidence of reality, you are not truly alive. This, again, in a religious take on the subject.

Originally posted by Surtur
You also flat out don't get to give rules to other people and say "doesn't apply to me because power".

I agree. But as we spoke about animals earlier, there are also rules that are fundamental to our nature. For us to be able to even follow the rules that apply to God, we'd need to be gods ourselves.

@Surtur: I'm not trying to argue about anything in particular here, I'm citing your comments because I found them appealing and inspired the comments above. Which is why I join these discussions after all 👆

Then it is a ridiculous argument bentley. You either subscribe to the idea of god and him being all powerful all knowing, or you don't. What you cann do is subscribe to the former and yet judge him based on human merits.

Originally posted by psmith81992
Then it is a ridiculous argument bentley. You either subscribe to the idea of god and him being all powerful all knowing, or you don't. What you cann do is subscribe to the former and yet judge him based on human merits.

That's the point I was trying to make. If we want to judge God with human morality, then we have to make him human for all practical proposes. But that beats the point of him being God to begin with.

If we reduce the christian God to these conditions, it's fair to say he wouldn't be the christian God at all (obviously you can replace christian by jewish, muslim etc.).

Yup that is what i have always argued and guys like Ush disagreed.

Originally posted by Digi
Nor do I. I don't necessarily have a concrete answer to this; I think you make a valid point. Limbo is a bit of a murky territory, though, literally and figuratively. I can assure you that you could talk to a LOT of priests from various sects and they'd tell you that the babies were heaven-bound. They'd also likely disagree that there's anything wrong with "cutting the line." They'd probably frame tests of faith and having to maintain that faith for years as a great privilege, not a burden or unfair treatment.

Originally posted by Digi
See, this is kind of the point though, isn't it? Those who believe the entire Bible is literal have deeper issues with their critical thinking. For the rest, it's easy to pass off atrocity as either metaphoric, or part of the Old Testament that was overwritten by Jesus's teachings.

Either or, both are equally bad.

Originally posted by Digi
A decent point, and I'd agree. Were I a deity and I was in charge of damning souls for eternity, I'd be sure to be a bit more clear.

But the response is that for morality to mean anything for humans, we have to be given some element of choice. If belief in God required no faith, it would strip that belief of its power.

Originally posted by Digi

The point isn't which of our arguments are right/wrong. The point is, hopefully you can see how slippery these debates become, and how hard it is to pin down hypocrisy when such an ingrained system of justification exists not just on an individual level but an institutional one as well. Usually I prefer to come at religious worldviews from a bit more empirical angle. Trying to argue the Bible's veracity and morality becomes incredibly murky in a hurry.

One of my personal heroes, Penn Jillette, is fond of saying that the quickest way to leave Christianity and/or become an atheist is to really sit down and read the Bible. Iirc, he claims he reads it once a year. It's an amusing line, one which I'm in general agreement with, so I do think you have something with your line of thinking. It's just hard to convince Christians of that.

I completely agree. There is no use in arguing with someone that bases his belief in rejecting reason.

Originally posted by Surtur [QUOTE=15359200]Originally posted by psmith81992
Correct, I am sure he does have his reasons for murdering massive amounts of people.

I'm also arguing with this other person on MVC on this exact topic and he pretty much is self destroying; like our pal PSmith is doing right now.

I asked him ( MVC poster) if he would kill innocent civilians if god commanded it in his sleep and he said he would be willing but not sure if he could do it.
If gods morality is reflected in his herd then I think it's clear the question would be: Is gods' morality above (insert insane dictators name here)

I'm also arguing with this other person on MVC on this exact topic and he pretty much is self destroying; like our pal PSmith is doing right now.

I asked him ( MVC poster) if he would kill innocent civilians if god commanded it in his sleep and he said he would be willing but not sure if he could do it.
If gods morality is reflected in his herd then I think it's clear the question would be: Is gods' morality above (insert insane dictators name here)

I guess these type of Christians are more common than I expected.

Originally posted by psmith81992
I don't have the time to post the explanation of the flood, I'll do it when I get home. But it's rational when you read through it.

[Insert links here that I deleted due to the websites' restrictions]
These were just the quickest links I can find. I think the last one is what you're looking for.

That's an overly simplistic view of looking at the event in question. Furthermore, you haven't really gone beyond "God killed people and babies". That's not context, that's nothing. That's an incredibly basic understanding of the great flood.

Edit: Also was just browsing through this, thought it was a good read:

This is what your first link had to say about the topic:

" closed as not constructive by Alypius, Narnian, El'endia Starman♦ May 1 '13 at 16:36

As it currently stands, this question is not a good fit for our Q&A format. We expect answers to be supported by facts, references, or expertise, but this question will likely solicit debate, arguments, polling, or extended discussion. If you feel that this question can be improved and possibly reopened, visit the help center for guidance."

" There is no such thing as "probably innocent". The fallen nature of all humans since Adam means that we are guilty and deserving of condemnation from the womb on.That God could wipe out all humanity in the way he did helps us understands God's disposition towards sin and gives us a reference point for man's sinful nature. The NT echoes this as it affirms that there are NONE righteous on their own apart from God's intervention. The pre-flood people of earth are used as a reminder of this and the flood stands of a warning of the future judgement we will all face."

I guess these type of Christians are more common than I expected.

Originally posted by psmith81992
The only one that's destroying himself is the one comparing a biblical account of God destroying first born to the holocaust.

Originally posted by psmith81992
What a dumb question. If an all powerful being would tell you to kill "innocent civilians", they're probably not innocent. I like the way you phrase "innocent" civilians though, as if God is going to tell you that they're innocent but kill them anyways. Your hypotheticals are really funny.

I asked my fellow MVCer if he would be willing to kill "innocent" civilians and he said he would. Whether the question was loaded is not my problem, as a devoted Christian he answered the question, lmao.

They might be funny, but they end up making you look silly.

Originally posted by Bentley
That's a cop out and you know it. If you define morals exclusively about how humans behave, then obviously human morals will seem like a decent standard for you. The question from the thread is rigged.

Our morality only makes sense because of our physical limitations, our relationship with death and our interactivity with each other. Morals don't exist in a timeless vacuum and certainly don't make much sense to an entity such as God.

I did not read the question of the thread as "let's assume God is human" and then "let's expect that human to be beyond humanity", because that claim would make no sense.

And I quote:

" What is said in Genesis:

“15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”"

" 4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”“

[Besides the main point, but relevant to the conversation:
“9 But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”" omniscient? I doubt it.]

“22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”"

Notice he said “one of us” not like “I”.

Anyways, now you’re caught up.
"

Going by the Christian standard, we do know morality on gods' level.

I don't belief god cares if he kills innocents. Let's make this easy. For this debates purpose, please state what an innocent person is like if they even exist in your mind.

They might be funny, but they end up making you look silly.

Going by the Christian standard, we do know morality on gods' level.

Originally posted by psmith81992
You're the one that mentioned innocents. And your belief is irrelevant to this discussion. For instance, I don't believe God kills innocents.. So?

Just briefly state what you think an innocent person would be like, for this threads purpose.

Originally posted by psmith81992
Wonderful, so it's a game of "I'm going to read the passages, not attach any context to it or get an explanation for the passage (each passage has dozens), then I'm going to claim that we know god's morality". Congratulations, you're making yourself look worse with each subsequent post.

Context: God tells Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree of knowledge, they do so God tells them they are like him in the regard of knowing good from bad.

I understand this makes your case very difficult hence your complaining about no context being involved.

Well, I was going to make the point that babies are innocent but it seems like you don't agree with that.

Just briefly state what you think an innocent person would be like, for this threads purpose.

The context is what it quoted. And I had a web address on that quote but I'm unable to post website links because I'm new.

Context: God tells Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree of knowledge, they do so God tells them they are like him in the regard of knowing good from bad.

I understand this makes your case very difficult hence your complaining about no context being involved.

Originally posted by psmith81992
The fact that he is perfect and all knowing and we are not disqualifies you for giving reasons for his imperfection, because you deem it wrong and I'm not sure you've done due diligence on bible explanations. Again I stress that we cannot understand a perfect being and can only speculate on his actions. However, I think one has to be well versed biblically to argue your points.

Also simply claiming God's laws are arbitrary is nothing but a simple opinion. I don't think theyre arbitrary at all, im fact just the opposite.

It doesn't disqualify me because I do not espouse to a might makes right mentality.

I do not espouse to a thought of "super powerful beings are just so much better then me I can't even comprehend them".

If God was perfect the dude would of never created anything with flaws to begin with, so out go the floods, out go the meteorites, they wouldn't be needed.

Frankly, I don't care if God can wiggle his pinky and create a universe. Dude is still a dick if he acts like a dick. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck then it must be a murderous deity.

Of course you don't espouse to the thought because you have the same misplaced arrogance as Ush. If you're judging god by your standards then he is no longer god.

The question ultimately boils down to what kind off God you believe in. I firmly believe in a God, but because of the homophobia, misogyny, geocentric dogmas, etc. of the bible, I can only believe that the bible, Koran, etc. is a flawed interpretation of Him. So is the Abrahamic God morally flawless? Absolutely not. But more than likely, the Abrahamic God is not the real God, just one of many man-made interpretations.

So I believe God is perfect, but it is humans interpretation of Him that is incorrect. I don't think we have a religion yet that worships the real God.

Unless you understand why there's 'homophobia' and the likes in the bible, it's hard to comment. It makes sense in the Torah as to why such things are forbidden or abominations. People that don't agree with it either don't understand the laws or don't believe in God so that doesn't really matter as they are entitled to those beliefs. But yes obviously a human interpretation of an infallible being is still going to be fallible.

Again, that is based on the assumption that the Abrahamic God is the real one.

Originally posted by Van Hohenheim
I'm talking about the Christian god, by the way. Please keep this discussion civilised and sophisticated, thank you. I'm very curious as to what you all think.

The Christian god was created by humans. Therefore god's morals are human in origin.

God's morals are equal with humans morals.