Originally posted by Zampanó
I think that Traya's ease of draining the Jedi Council on Dantooine is evidence in favor of N.'s ability to drain the people here. In the TSLRP version, Traya was able to drain the masters even after being identified as Sith; they weren't exactly taken off guard. So we have evidence of drain in the face of numerical advantage and raised "defenses."But why wouldn't N. simply drain the raiding party? Tobin answers that in one of the few areas where he is an in-universe expert: interpersonal relations with Darth N. Tobin describes N.'s perspective as one that encompasses planets, with little attention to spare for the actual running of the ship by individuals. This suggests that N simply doesn't care about individual, non-force sensitive agents. Notably, N. does attempt a drain on the Exile, which backfires (for well-established reasons). Now injured, he faces his apprentice (who he doesn't want to kill) who is bonded incidentally to a Jedi who cannot be drained. The non-Force Sensitive barely factors into the equation, but various dialogues with Kreia suggest that Canderous was also bonded to the Exile. Thus there is ample evidence that N.'s perspective does not allow for a great deal of concern about Canderous, as well as an in-universe reason to avoid trying to drain him anyway.
A final addendum: draining Telos was explicitly going to weaken, not strengthen big N. He was expecting a feast and would instead get a depopulated world with a single now-dead
JediSithAtris. The whole Onderon plotline is a gambit to get N. to overextend, luring him into the open without a populated world or cluster of Force users to feed upon. N. was to be at his weakest even if he launched a drain at Telos.For the matchup itself, have we seen Plagueis weaponize midichlorians in combat at all? Against opponents with active Force connections? Against users of Bane's caliber? Against wounds in the Force? (I think that last point has textual evidence that N.'s connection is fundamentally different, metaphysically if not biologically, from others. The Jedi Council doesn't sense a restoration of the Exile's connection, just the bonds to many other users. Instead of one connection that needs to be severed, Plagueis would need to sever or manipulate the echo of more than a billion lives interacting through N.'s body...)
Biologically yeah, Nihilus doesn't even have a biological body. There's no midichlorians to manipulate.
Zamp, for some reason I'm still unable to quote your posts. What's up with that?
Z.
I think that Traya's ease of draining the Jedi Council on Dantooine is evidence in favor of N.'s ability to drain the people here. In the TSLRP version, Traya was able to drain the masters even after being identified as Sith; they weren't exactly taken off guard. So we have evidence of drain in the face of numerical advantage and raised "defenses."
mmm
Idn't that cut content?
Z.
But why wouldn't N. simply drain the raiding party? Tobin answers that in one of the few areas where he is an in-universe expert: interpersonal relations with Darth N. Tobin describes N.'s perspective as one that encompasses planets, with little attention to spare for the actual running of the ship by individuals. This suggests that N simply doesn't care about individual, non-force sensitive agents.
I question Tobin's alleged expertise... since Nihilus cares enough about Mandalore to stun him.
Z.
Notably, N. does attempt a drain on the Exile, which backfires (for well-established reasons). Now injured, he faces his apprentice (who he doesn't want to kill) who is bonded incidentally to a Jedi who cannot be drained. The non-Force Sensitive barely factors into the equation, but various dialogues with Kreia suggest that Canderous was also bonded to the Exile. Thus there is ample evidence that N.'s perspective does not allow for a great deal of concern about Canderous, as well as an in-universe reason to avoid trying to drain him anyway.
You haven't established that Nihilus would be aware of such a connection between the Exile and Canderous, let alone that he'd have reason to fear it.
Z.
A final addendum: draining Telos was explicitly going to weaken, not strengthen big N. He was expecting a feast and would instead get a depopulated world with a single now-dead Jedi Sith Atris. The whole Onderon plotline is a gambit to get N. to overextend, luring him into the open without a populated world or cluster of Force users to feed upon. N. was to be at his weakest even if he launched a drain at Telos.
Yeah, but I recall dialogue indicating that Nihilus would have indeed drained Telos as a last resort option. Clearly not the buffet he expected, but better than absolute starvation altogether.
Z.
For the matchup itself, have we seen Plagueis weaponize midichlorians in combat at all? Against opponents with active Force connections? Against users of Bane's caliber? Against wounds in the Force? (I think that last point has textual evidence that N.'s connection is fundamentally different, metaphysically if not biologically, from others. The Jedi Council doesn't sense a restoration of the Exile's connection, just the bonds to many other users. Instead of one connection that needs to be severed, Plagueis would need to sever or manipulate the echo of more than a billion lives interacting through N.'s body...)
Plagueis doesn't sever or manipulate echoes; he manipulates the literal cellular structures themselves. Your questions as to whether or not he could successfully employ the technique in combat against another Sith Lord are legitimate... but are no different from my similar questions about Nihilus's ability to employ his drain against a prepared Force user of sufficient caliber in the midst of battle.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Plagueis doesn't sever or manipulate echoes; he manipulates the literal cellular structures themselves. Your questions as to whether or not he could successfully employ the technique in combat against another Sith Lord are legitimate... but are no different from my similar questions about Nihilus's ability to employ his drain against a prepared Force user of sufficient caliber in the midst of battle.
Even Abeloth wasn't immune to Force Drain powers. When she clashed with the duo of Luke Skywalker and Darth Krayt on a supposedly favorable setting, a single factor proved to be instrument in her defeat. Guess what?
Spoiler:(unleashed on her by Darth Krayt).
Force Drain powers
Darth Nihilus is one of the most dangerous beings to ever grace the galaxy and he eclipses majority in his command of Force Drain powers. Only Vitiate rivals him in this department.
The question that you should be asking is how long Darth Plagueis would last if subjected to one of the most potent expressions of Force Drain powers. I am afraid that you may not like the answer.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Visas says Nihilus was just a man tbh.
Metaphorically.
"Before it devours him totally, Nihilus uses its power to displace his persona into his robes and armor. As his useless body disintegrates, he becomes living primitive intention."
Krayt also asks Nihilus' holocron how he managed this.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Metaphorically.
wait wut
Originally posted by Nephthys
"Before it devours him totally, Nihilus uses its power to displace his persona into his robes and armor. As his useless body disintegrates, he becomes living primitive intention."Krayt also asks Nihilus' holocron how he managed this.
Spoiler:
I'm aware lol. It's in the Encyclopedia, KOTOR Campaign Guide, etc.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
[b]Zamp, for some reason I'm still unable to quote your posts. What's up with that?mmm[/b]
heh.
Idn't that cut content?
Kreia enters at 8:20
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co6f55ZlHN4
I question Tobin's alleged expertise... since Nihilus cares enough about Mandalore to stun him.
ok but this is begging the question. You are assuming that N. deliberately stunned Canderous in particular and that this somehow nullifies my conclusion about Tobin's knowledge of N.'s perspective. In fact, Tobin is an expert witness because N.'s perspective on personal conflict was a specific cause of the rebellion's failure on Onderon. Then Tobin got several (months? weeks?) of exposure to N.'s day to day management style, which is borne out by Visas's commentary about how the party's presence on the Ravager:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cGKD3_Xp0I&index=143&list=PL48C18CA91F0AD67D
5:17: "II do not believe he knows his ship has been boarded... and if he did, he would not care."
Note that this is coming from Visas, the long-time apprentice of N. and the character who most closely approximates N.'s perspective and powers of sight. (c.f. claims that he made her see etc.)
N.'s stun of the Party attacking him is easily interpreted as an area of attack, or even a side-effect of a Planetary/Galaxy level operator turning his attention to three individuals. Mandalore would hardly be expected to weather that kind of telepathic assault.
You haven't established that Nihilus would be aware of such a connection between the Exile and Canderous, let alone that he'd have reason to fear it.
Yeah, but I recall dialogue indicating that Nihilus would have indeed drained Telos as a last resort option. Clearly not the buffet he expected, but better than absolute starvation altogether.
Plagueis doesn't sever or manipulate echoes; he manipulates the literal cellular structures themselves. Your questions as to whether or not he could successfully employ the technique in combat against another Sith Lord are legitimate... but are no different from my similar questions about Nihilus's ability to employ his drain against a prepared Force user of sufficient caliber in the midst of battle.
Right, so leaving aside Neph's very helpful assertion that N. doesn't have cells, I'd like to answer this within the context of my previous talk about the Exile's force connection. It is made clear by the council on Dantooine, as well as Vrook individually, that the Exile's burgeoning combat and Force capacity does not derive from her own manipulation of the Force. Rather, those two conversations both make explicit that the Jedi proper "do not sense" that the Exile's connection has returned. Evidence:
Vrook: at minute 5:58
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrahLxLBqS8&index=25&list=PL943A526A0C33CE50
From the Enclave, Kavar says that the Sith assassins use a technique to get stronger near Force Users, and then Vrook says you they learned that from you; your ability to make those bonds (to then draw upon) is why you in particular are a danger:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co6f55ZlHN4
7:00 minute (+35 seconds or so)
So let's recap: N.'s ability relies on Force Bonds which he then severs. Somehow he grows more powerful in proportion to the number of such severings conducted. Like the Exile, this power grows by exposure to other beings, whose connections involve midichlorians. That is, the limiting factor on N.'s power is not his own midichlorians, but rather his exposure to the midichlorians of others. This suggests that Plagueis's manipulation of N.'s midichlorians (if they exist) is not sufficient to manipulate the sum total of N.'s connection to the force.
Thus I think that there is a stronger basis for denying Midichlorian shenanigans against N. specifically than there is for denying Force Power shenanigans against any given powerful character.
Visas refers to what she sees "behind the mask" - you can either have the graveyard world response or "a man, nothing more". I doubt it refers to Nihilus as a literal, physical man - more of just his origin/his previous identity before becoming the Dark Lord.
Anyway, why is Midichlorian manipulation such a big discussion here? I doubt it works on Nihilus and I equally doubt that Plagueis would even attempt it here. He wouldn't afford the time and attention required for it, not to mention Nihilus isn't even a cellular Force-user anymore.
Originally posted by SunRazerAgreed.
Visas refers to what she sees "behind the mask" - you can either have the graveyard world response or "a man, nothing more". I doubt it refers to Nihilus as a literal, physical man - more of just his origin/his previous identity before becoming the Dark Lord.Anyway, why is Midichlorian manipulation such a big discussion here? I doubt it works on Nihilus and I equally doubt that Plagueis would even attempt it here. He wouldn't afford the time and attention required for it, not to mention Nihilus isn't even a cellular Force-user anymore.
Nihilus can't Drain all at once. When he attempted to Drain the Exile, Mandalore wasn't affected. The events on Katarr are dubious at best and there's implications that it's more than just Nihilus' Drain, but the point is that if he targeted either Krayt or Plagueis for Drain here, the other would blitz him (that's assuming Plagueis doesn't blitz him already).
And Orbalisk Bane is just out of his depth. He gets cooked by Lightning in his armor.