Originally posted by LGU
Batman didn't look significantly stronger than Matt in the actual scuffle they had in a (similarly non-canon) crossover around that same time.I think Batman is a bit stronger than DD, but Matt is competitive enough.
Well, I don't think every writer will write Bruce as stronger but there is a precedence for it. And Bruce didn't look much weaker than Cap too in what, three fights?
In a straight-line foot race, sure - not so much in a fight though. Matt's actually looked consistently very good against Cap when they have fought (including one fight in which Cap arguably concedes that DD is more skilled than he is).Cheers.
I don't think that's quite true. Cap is consistently shown as better than DD in their fights.
Originally posted by Martian_mindIt was but Cap was fighting with less finesse and Daredevil was even wondering why Cap was taking a juggernaut approach.
Not really. Hell, their latest fight under Waid was pretty much dead even, IIRC.
Cap could beat Daredevil but I've never seen Cap in any of their fights hold some massive advantage over him, the fights have been fairly equal with Cap getting an edge here and there. And none of the fights ever reached a true conclusion either
Wait, yeah.
Still, DareDevil had Gorgon, Karnak, and "Number Nine" helping him, with the latter distracting him and trying to figure out his weak points.
He didn't even do it legit, he picked up a ****ing stick and beat Ultron with it.
Yet you forget Ultron was disadvanted and near-malfunctioning, and still got some good hits on DD despite going batshit crazy.
Originally posted by Jmanghan
Wait, yeah.Still, DareDevil had Gorgon, Karnak, and "Number Nine" helping him, with the latter distracting him and trying to figure out his weak points.
He didn't even do it legit, he picked up a ****ing stick and beat Ultron with it.
Yet you forget Ultron was disadvanted and near-malfunctioning, and still got some good hits on DD despite going batshit crazy.
And it's still more impressive than the common feats you listed.
Even Doom (without the armor, literally naked) killed a lion. And Daredevil is his h2h superior in every way.
Daredevil flipped a limo with people in it.
Originally posted by RadZoa
About 25 years ago against a weak Ultron
Adamantium Ultron nonetheless.
You want to use only new feats? Be my guest. Nubat is a castrated shadow of his former self.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Well, I don't think every writer will write Bruce as stronger but there is a precedence for it.
Like I said, I agree that Bruce has an edge. How significant it would be is another question.
And Bruce didn't look much weaker than Cap too in what, three fights?
Well he pretty quickly concluded that Cap was the favourite after their opening exchanges in JLAvengers, we don't know if that was based on physical stats or skill levels. But yeah, in general this is true.
Broadly speaking though it's true for most fights between pure street level guys. There aren't all that many that portray a decisive strength edge. In several of their direct fights there is no suggestion that Cap had a strength edge over Daredevil, yet we know he quite clearly does.
I don't think that's quite true. Cap is consistently shown as better than DD in their fights.
Which fights do you think this is true for, specifically?
Their fight from DD v1 #43 is tricky to assess overall. DD is out of his mind and Cap explicitly notes that it is hampering his skill and strategy. Cap is also holding back at the start of the fight (although stops doing so a few pages in) and DD gets a couple of free shots. Daredevil seems pretty clearly to think that Cap is stronger and faster than him. But the fight is portrayed as even throughout despite all these factors, with onlookers noting that it could go either way. The fight ends inconclusively as DD snaps out of his aggressive mind-set and leaves. It's possible to argue that Cap looks better overall here (and certainly physically more impressive), but it's far from conclusive.
DD absolutely owns Cap in DD v1 #155, catching a shield toss out of the air with his billy club, then dodging Cap's h2h attack and cleanly KO'ing him with a single judo toss. However, this is mitigated by the fact that it was dark, so Cap could not tell that he was fighting Daredevil. Had he known he was against such a skilled opponent, he might have adjusted his strategy accordingly. So again, not definitive but there's no way to say Cap looked better here.
There's the famous scene from DD v1 #233 in which Cap sprints past Daredevil and Matt explicitly concedes a speed gap. But that wasn't in any way a fight.
Cap does beat DD down in Cap #375, but there are plenty of mitigating factors. It's the equivalent to the first fight, with Cap out of his mind and out for blood and DD trying to talk him down. Shortly before Cap scores the KO, DD notes that he can't bring himself to try and hurt Cap, whilst Cap has no such problem. Furthermore, it's explicitly noted three separate times (in a five page fight) that Daredevil is off his game due to recent experiences and being out of practice, so is not in peak form. So yeah, Cap looks better here... but it's far from a straight forward case.
They next have a brief set-to in DD v1 #327, though nothing much happens. Cap throws his shield at Daredevil, who easily catches it out of the air and is ready to fight with the shield. No fight actually occurs after that though.
Then we have the fight from Cap/DD: Dead on Arrival. Again, factors to consider here - DD is out of his mind, which explicitly has "dramatically degraded" his fighting skills (Cap's words, not mine). Even so, DD comes out looking more skilled than Cap, who arguably (depending on how you read some ambiguous dialogue) conceded that DD in peak form is more skilled than he is. He certainly looks it here - at one point, they each throw their weapon at the other. DD deflects the shield away, knocking it harmlessly to the ground. Matt's billy club ricochets off a gravestone and pings Cap in the back of the head, flooring him. The fight ends when Cap administers an antidote to Matt's mental condition via injection. Clearly Cap didn't want to hurt DD, but there's no way to argue that Cap looks better in this fight all things considered.
Finally, we have the scuffle from DD v3 #1-2. Cap is the clear aggressor throughout (DD never throws a punch in anger and is trying to talk Cap down throughout). Cap even turns up prepped with anti-radar chaff. Even so, DD more than holds his own. Both disarm the other, although just before the fight ends DD disarms Cap again (so Matt ends with both shield and billy club, Cap ends empty-handed). Cap throws numerous punches at DD but can't connect with a single one - the only time he lands anything on Matt is with the billy club cable, which DD easily escapes from. The fight ends before it goes anywhere close to a conclusion, but again, I really don't see how Cap looks better than DD here.
So by my count, there is two fights in which you could make a case that Cap looks better, but both of those have a LOT of factors involved (especially the second one). Both have one clean KO of the other, again both with a LOT of factors involved. All of the other fights end in stalemates, the majority of which either portray them as dead even, with a couple arguably presenting DD as having a skill edge. There is no genuinely conclusive fight between them at all.
So I really can't see any justification for your statement that "Cap is consistently shown as better than DD in their fights" at all. I've got scans of all of the above scenes and can post them if required.
Cheers.
Originally posted by LGU
Like I said, I agree that Bruce has an edge. How significant it would be is another question.Well he pretty quickly concluded that Cap was the favourite after their opening exchanges in JLAvengers, we don't know if that was based on physical stats or skill levels. But yeah, in general this is true.
Broadly speaking though it's true for most fights between pure street level guys. There aren't all that many that portray a decisive strength edge. In several of their direct fights there is no suggestion that Cap had a strength edge over Daredevil, yet we know he quite clearly does.
Which fights do you think this is true for, specifically?
Their fight from [b]DD v1 #43
is tricky to assess overall. DD is out of his mind and Cap explicitly notes that it is hampering his skill and strategy. Cap is also holding back at the start of the fight (although stops doing so a few pages in) and DD gets a couple of free shots. Daredevil seems pretty clearly to think that Cap is stronger and faster than him. But the fight is portrayed as even throughout despite all these factors, with onlookers noting that it could go either way. The fight ends inconclusively as DD snaps out of his aggressive mind-set and leaves. It's possible to argue that Cap looks better overall here (and certainly physically more impressive), but it's far from conclusive.DD absolutely owns Cap in DD v1 #155, catching a shield toss out of the air with his billy club, then dodging Cap's h2h attack and cleanly KO'ing him with a single judo toss. However, this is mitigated by the fact that it was dark, so Cap could not tell that he was fighting Daredevil. Had he known he was against such a skilled opponent, he might have adjusted his strategy accordingly. So again, not definitive but there's no way to say Cap looked better here.
There's the famous scene from DD v1 #233 in which Cap sprints past Daredevil and Matt explicitly concedes a speed gap. But that wasn't in any way a fight.
Cap does beat DD down in Cap #375, but there are plenty of mitigating factors. It's the equivalent to the first fight, with Cap out of his mind and out for blood and DD trying to talk him down. Shortly before Cap scores the KO, DD notes that he can't bring himself to try and hurt Cap, whilst Cap has no such problem. Furthermore, it's explicitly noted three separate times (in a five page fight) that Daredevil is off his game due to recent experiences and being out of practice, so is not in peak form. So yeah, Cap looks better here... but it's far from a straight forward case.
They next have a brief set-to in DD v1 #327, though nothing much happens. Cap throws his shield at Daredevil, who easily catches it out of the air and is ready to fight with the shield. No fight actually occurs after that though.
Then we have the fight from Cap/DD: Dead on Arrival. Again, factors to consider here - DD is out of his mind, which explicitly has "dramatically degraded" his fighting skills (Cap's words, not mine). Even so, DD comes out looking more skilled than Cap, who arguably (depending on how you read some ambiguous dialogue) conceded that DD in peak form is more skilled than he is. He certainly looks it here - at one point, they each throw their weapon at the other. DD deflects the shield away, knocking it harmlessly to the ground. Matt's billy club ricochets off a gravestone and pings Cap in the back of the head, flooring him. The fight ends when Cap administers an antidote to Matt's mental condition via injection. Clearly Cap didn't want to hurt DD, but there's no way to argue that Cap looks better in this fight all things considered.
Finally, we have the scuffle from DD v3 #1-2. Cap is the clear aggressor throughout (DD never throws a punch in anger and is trying to talk Cap down throughout). Cap even turns up prepped with anti-radar chaff. Even so, DD more than holds his own. Both disarm the other, although just before the fight ends DD disarms Cap again (so Matt ends with both shield and billy club, Cap ends empty-handed). Cap throws numerous punches at DD but can't connect with a single one - the only time he lands anything on Matt is with the billy club cable, which DD easily escapes from. The fight ends before it goes anywhere close to a conclusion, but again, I really don't see how Cap looks better than DD here.
So by my count, there is two fights in which you could make a case that Cap looks better, but both of those have a LOT of factors involved (especially the second one). Both have one clean KO of the other, again both with a LOT of factors involved. All of the other fights end in stalemates, the majority of which either portray them as dead even, with a couple arguably presenting DD as having a skill edge. There is no genuinely conclusive fight between them at all.
So I really can't see any justification for your statement that "Cap is consistently shown as better than DD in their fights" at all. I've got scans of all of the above scenes and can post them if required.
Cheers. [/B]
Man I'd like you to post them just to check them out. I missed a couple of them. But if you'd prefer not to there's that as well.
Originally posted by StiltmanFTWKind of inconsistent for any version of Ultron to get beat by a ****ing stick, and DD, no less.
And it's still more impressive than the common feats you listed.Even Doom (without the armor, literally naked) killed a lion. And Daredevil is his h2h superior in every way.
Daredevil flipped a limo with people in it.
Adamantium Ultron nonetheless.
You want to use only new feats? Be my guest. Nubat is a castrated shadow of his former self.
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
And it's still more impressive than the common feats you listed.Even Doom (without the armor, literally naked) killed a lion. And Daredevil is his h2h superior in every way.
Daredevil flipped a limo with people in it.
Adamantium Ultron nonetheless.
You want to use only new feats? Be my guest. Nubat is a castrated shadow of his former self.
Proof? Ultron has had different bodies through the years, and his body has been less durable than other times.
I could use only NuBat and he'd still win,. 💃